Did Troy really exist?...

Yes but Scipio was smarter. He went straight into Carthage...

=P yeah but at least Hannibal proved to the rest of the world that the Romans could be defeated so people didn't lose hope.

I thought it was Achilles who killed Hector!

actually it was the other way around...lol

Hector killed Patrocle
Achilles killed Hector
Paris killed Achilles

I saw the movie, very good i must say.
Hector didn't kill Achilles though, Hector's Brother killed him in his moment
of weakenss, piercing an arrow into his heel. I wish Hector had lived wow he was 'hot'.

Originally posted by DarthCorkus
=P yeah but at least Hannibal proved to the rest of the world that the Romans could be defeated so people didn't lose hope.

Yeah lol, and Sapphire you're soo lucky you saw the movie (I DONT want to see t because of Brad Pitt).

I saw the program last night called "the making of troy" that was good...but kinda weird how 1,000 ships can fit 50,000 soldiers when most of the ships in those days were taken up by the rowers...lol

A greek trireme could actually fit more than 500 hoplites (soldiers). The ship's portrayal in the movie Troy is based on a Phoenician merchant ship not a Greek warship.

Also, Hector was killed by Achilles, and the Mermidones were Achilles troops from Greece. There have been ancient Greek plaques which are believed to support Achilles as an actual historical figure.

Originally posted by DarthCorkus
But really...the other thing is though...the fact of Achilles and the other guy (I forget his name) meeting in combat...this is off the actual city this is more onto the war itself...in my opinion I simply think Achilles was heavily armoured and the only weak armour was at his ankles/legs that was the only reason people thought he was immortal.

[Edited on 23-5-2004 by DarthCorkus]

Why don't you try reading "The Iliad"?

Unlike in the movie, Patroclus wants to help defend the wall and so Achilles gives him his armor to be safe. In return Patroclus gives Achilles his armor.

Achille's armor had no weaknesses, but Patroclus's was exposed at the neck I believe...

So when Patroclus was killed Achilles was in battle with his armor and that weakness was exposed by Paris who shot him with an arrow.

It doesn't really matter because in that time period you needed more than armor to survive...there are plenty of accounts of ramming spears and such through the breast plates so the armor was really only defense against glancing blows.

Also unlike in the movie, you couldn't fight sword to sword with a bronze sword, it'd bend as soon as you hit the other person.

Bronze swords were specifically thrusting weapons. And in "The Iliad" Hector (the other guy I think you're talking about) ran around the city like a chicken-butt 3 times before finally stopping to face Achilles.

Originally posted by DarthCorkus
I saw the program last night called "the making of troy" that was good...but kinda weird how 1,000 ships can fit 50,000 soldiers when most of the ships in those days were taken up by the rowers...lol

The ships at that time were not "Triremes" so that was a mistake (in relation to a post after yours) but to answer your question, the rowers WERE the Soldiers.

It's not a hard concept, the Vikings did this, "come on lads! Let's row to attack somewhere harrrrrrr" *pack swords spears and shields and row and when you arrive* "harrr drop oars and grab spears charge!!!!"

The ships were triremes, invented by the Minoans, as half a cross between merchant and warship. I am sorry but I disagree, the rowers were slaves not soldiers. Ancient Greeks always used slaves for rowing.

Funny, the Iliad completely flies in your face. The Ships were rowed by the men who were going to war, read the Odyssee, Odysseus did not have a mass of slaves rowing his ship.

The Triremes were invented by the Athenians and had 3 levels of rowing, not by the Minoans whose shipping capabilities were far inferior.

Originally posted by DeusEx


2. The ruins are in Asia Minor, in Turkey methinks. I can't remember.

DE

eastern turkey to be exact along the sea somewhere in there

Oh and Gvret, I was under a wrong assumption, that slaves rowed the Triremes.

Completely wrong, in fact the rowers and crews of the Triremes were so valued that they had significant political power during the height of Athens.

Let's have a look at some interesting facts because of Triremes.

1) All ships today are regarded as feminine because the tradition that was started by Athens carried over to modern day.

2) The three harbours at Peiraieus were the best in Greece and possibly the Mediterranean; one was used entirely for triremes.

3)
Overall length: 37 metres (121 feet)
Overall beam: 5.5 metres (18 feet)
170 oarsmen in 3 files on each side: top file 31, middle and bottom 27 each
Oarsmen spaced at 2 cubits (0.888 metres/2 feet 9 inches)
One man per oar
Oar length 4.2m (13 feet 8�) and 4.0m (13 feet) - short oars at ends of ship
Speed: able to cover 184 sea miles at about 7.5 knots without stopping

4) The fleet spent 8 months at sea, with 90 ships on duty at any one time (200 for Egypt) Pay was 1 drachma a day (increased in 415 BC). Crew was 170 oarsmen + 30 "non-sailors" (10 marines, sail-crew, carpenter, helmsman, piper) + captain. Oarsmen sat in 3 tiers [Aristophanes mentions the olfactory disadvan tages of being on bottom tier during a long voyage] Training was necessary: Athens undertook many small military expeditions just to keep the oarsmen fit, although as far as skill was concerned "the majority can row as soon as they get aboard since they have practised all through their life" (The "Old Oligarch").

www.users.globalnet.co.uk...

Why are you talking about Athens? Athens was non existent at the time of the Iliad. Furthermore, nice to read the Iliad and Odysey in English, if you read the ancient greek, it specificaly states triremes, and uses the words "sklavos" (slave) for the rowers.

Ugh...first, you don't speak ancient Greek.

Second, no it does not use the word "Skalvos" or the word "trireme" because Triremes did not exist until 600 BC, almost 800 years after the Iliad takes place and 400 years after the Iliad was supposedly composed based on comparisons of Greek views on other civilizations of the time period.

I bring up Athens because they were the ones who used Triremes, I ignored Troy or the Iliad for the large part because they did not use Triremes and therefore are completely irrelevant to your argument that Triremes used slaves for rowing.

I gave you a necessary source to help you out, and you can look up any other information you want online or in a book or wherever.

Now whether or not the Greeks of the Iliad used slaves to row is debateable, but I stand by the fact that Odysseus did not use slaves to row his boat as evidence that the Greeks used tactics similar to the Vikings 2,000 years later. The soldiers rowed their own boats.

That is a logical assessment because this is seen in many ancient warrior societies.

Also in the Odyssee Odysseus's son went from land to land collecting some men along the way to help row his ship when in search of his father.

Athens not using slaves to row their Triremes (would you really use slaves on your most important weapons?) is further proof that slaves were doubtfully used in any situation at sea.

Ok, I speak ancient Greek, have been studying ancient greek for ten years, have a major in ancient greek warfare from the university of athens. Triremes were made famous by athenians, it is a great misconception that were invented by them. As far as slaves using important weapons, read herodotus and you will find slaves were even allowed to be hoplites in times of war.

Also (first sorry for misspelling of skalvos) I'm not sure why you seem to think that "skalvos" is indicative of slaves because the term skalvos until after 580 AD which is the word for "Slavs" which was adopted by Midieval Europeans speaking Midieval Latin (far different from vulgar latin or high latin) as sclavus meaning "slave".

So even your argument that the Iliad in Ancient Greek claims slaves were used to row their boats is wrong because the word you claim is in the Iliad is dated to 580 AD, which is 1,800 years after the Iliad is supposed to take place and about 1,300 years after it was supposed to be written.

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