The Adam, Eve and Lucifer show

Hello,

I recently posted a thread about Lucifer and his story. But we cant talk about Lucifer without talking about Adam and Eve. It says that God created Adam from dirt and Eve form the rib of Adam. The Bible isnt real specific on a lot of details of Adam and Eves condition. For instance:

1. After Adam and Eve were created the Bible never specified their age or insinuated what age they may be. They obviously had advanced motor skills which takes some degree of intelligence to operate. They could speak and undertand language but they had no cognition of their naked state or any awareness of the outside universe. So one can conclude that they were child like in nature based of of these descriptions in the Bible.

2. God gives Adam and Eve all they "need" and places a magic tree in the garden with tasty fruit or whatever on it. Lucifer shows up as a "talking serpent" and convinces Eve to go eat of the "tree of life" and that she would be like God. She does and she gains enlightenment and she becomes truly self-aware. She then offers it to Adam who also eats and he too is enlightened.

So we understand those blocks of events. What can be concluded from reading this in the Bible is that we have no idea how old Adam and Eve were. Lets just hypothetically say they were young children with no known discernment skills, no real understanding of the human/mind condition. Yet when they ate of the fruit and God called out to them and realized that they had committed "sin" he held them accountable and severely punished them. Even if Adam and Eve were adults, they still didn't have the proper mental tools to deal with Lucifer and discern what God had told them in the beginning. It wasnt until they ate of the Tree of Life that they gained discernment. And they supposedly acquired that burden of "sin"

So whos to blame here? God is. Lets review Gods model and see if it matches with the little story here of Adam and Eve.

God is:

All Loving ( i just love that one)
Omnipotent
Omniscient
Omnipresent
Perfect
and He is GOD. A single deity that controls all of the universe form some mysterious place that he lives.

So looking at the events in the Garden of Eden and the Bible in general Gods goes against his own model. Im interested in the responses. Hopefully it wont turn into a insult contest as did the other.

Cheers!

reply to post by ROBO6

So we understand those blocks of events. What can be concluded from reading this in the Bible is that we have no idea how old Adam and Eve were. Lets just hypothetically say they were young children with no known discernment skills, no real understanding of the human/mind condition. Yet when they ate of the fruit and God called out to them and realized that they had committed "sin" he held them accountable and severely punished them. Even if Adam and Eve were adults, they still didn't have the proper mental tools to deal with Lucifer and discern what God had told them in the beginning. It wasnt until they ate of the Tree of Life that they gained discernment. And they supposedly acquired that burden of "sin"

So whos to blame here? God is. Lets review Gods model and see if it matches with the little story here of Adam and Eve.

God is:

All Loving ( i just love that one)
Omnipotent
Omniscient
Omnipresent
Perfect
and He is GOD. A single deity that controls all of the universe form some mysterious place that he lives.

So looking at the events in the Garden of Eden and the Bible in general Gods goes against his own model. Im interested in the responses. Hopefully it wont turn into a insult contest as did the other.

I believe that by saying "created MAN"...I believe we can go ahead and state that yes, Adam & Eve were passed the age of adulthood.

To say they didn't have the proper tools to deal with deception...well, it's a toss up really. All they had to do was believe God. That's it. That's their tool....faith....

Who's to blame? Well, the satans(not specifically lucifer, IMO) are. They hold the ultimate burden of being responsible for all of mans sin. However, mankind is also accountable for their own actions. Once we become aware of sin we can then be held accountable for it...

God still fits the model. God still shows love and compassion. God grants us a way out. He doesn't ultimately condemn us. He lets us choose our destination....if we are to be condemned...we'll do it on our own accord....

Respectfully
A2D

A2D said pretty much what I was going to say also!

Think of God,the Father,telling His children right from wrong. Not because He doesn't want His children to have any "fun",but because He knows certain things will cause them harm and He wants to protect them.

But,we're rebellious children and sometimes just need to learn the hard way!

By the way,this is a good time to point out something I hear non-Christians complain about often. They'll say something like,"So,you guys can just go do whatever you want then ask forgiveness and all's well."(Or something along those lines!)

But "everyone reaps what he sows",and being a good Father,He disciplines those He loves. Christians don't get off without being "disciplined". It's a wise person who accepts correction and learns from it!

That tree contained knowledge of "good and EVIL",and we see the results of evil all around us. It's Satan's character,an evil LIAR,who makes sin look attractive,knowing all the while it is causing us harm.

And because he is not going to be allowed a place in heaven,he wants to make sure as many as he can influence do not go there either! That,as well as destroying God's creation any time he can!

So this "perfect" creator made a flawed creation from his own volition and puts the blame and responsibility of cleaning up the mess on his creation?

Wow!!!!...Sounds like a real intelligent god.

Excuse me if I refrain from sitting in his created heaven playing my silver harp for eternity.


peas

reply to post by theonlyrusty


"My way is not your way."

I think that if you want to look at it like that...as a flaw and not a specific design...then the flaw was intentional, yes...but look at the grand scale of things....what happens if we're designed without flaws? We'd be in the garden again....same place...same time...same outcome....

We made the decision to be disobedient. We have to be accountable for that action...We must clean up after ourselves....Just as the satans will be held accountable for their actions.....

[edit on 14-12-2009 by Agree2Disagree]

And remember, this perfect god also created thought. So in his grand scheme of things, he already knew what would happen. He knew what they would think cause he created it all............Ludicrous...........

Sounds like a planned obsolescence to me.

How intelligent is that?

peas

Originally posted by theonlyrusty

And remember, this perfect god also created thought. So in his grand scheme of things, he already knew what would happen. He knew what they would think cause he created it all............Ludicrous...........

Sounds like a planned obsolescence to me.

How intelligent is that?

peas

It's still more intelligent than the power we have to destroy....How can you judge what can create when you yourself can only destroy?

Creation can only exist if EVERYTHING is created. Equilibrium must be maintained. You can't maintain harmony with only one side of the coin showing.....

Respectfully
A2D

True. So this supposed "god" created hell as well. How is that equated with being "all loving"?


It never happened like it says in the bible.

peas

reply to post by theonlyrusty


He is all-loving but what is he to do when we refuse His love? He can't shove it down our throats now can He? Essentially, WE created hell by not accepting His mercy, grace, and everlasting love...We gave Him no other option..."Ask and ye shall receive" and...well....we asked for it...

A2D

reply to post by ROBO6

Genesis - who, where, when, what, why...

Moses wrote Genesis
Post-Exodus
About 1500 BC
The Genesis account is only a synopsis or outline.
As a pramble to the social engineering of Israel who have been slaves for hundereds of years in Egypt...
...as a means of preserving human kind against a Fallen Watcher attempt to polute/destroy the world of men.



[edit on 14/12/09 by troubleshooter]

It's a juvenile story made up by man to explain his origin. It paints a creative god in a less than intelligent view.

This is the same god that created Fibanacci rule, physics, the universe, gravity, etc.

Yet he gives his creations a bag of candy and says "Don't eat it"...

It is right up there with Santa stories....

peas

reply to post by theonlyrusty


I don't believe the whole "tree of knowledge" and "apple" story...

I believe Adam & Eve were tempted...but not with the fruit of a tree...

They were tempted with simple knowledge which the satans had prior to falling from grace....the apple is simply an analogy...

So...God didn't give them a bag of candy and instruct them not to eat it. The satans offered them a bag of candy and they accepted it......

[edit on 14-12-2009 by Agree2Disagree]

Originally posted by ROBO6
they had no cognition of their naked state or any awareness of the outside universe

Genesis is written like crap. So, it'll probably never make any sense to anyone.

But does saying they had no cognition of being naked really tells us anything? Maybe they did know or maybe they didn't, but that in my opinion isn't important. Look at Gen 2:25

25 The man and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.

It doesn't really stress the fact they were naked or if they knew that or not. It stresses that they felt no shame about it. Apparently the shame is what's important.

Gen 3:
10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."

11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked?

Okay, so Adam or whoever it was hid because he was shamed and then what we see isn't that God gets mad because the guy was naked. He was apparently naked the whole time and apparently that was perfectly fine with God. After all, God made his body, if God was offended by it why did he build it that way?

So, what does God get mad about? God gets made because Adam hid because he was ashamed of his own body. What does this tell us?

God is mad that we feel shame about God's creation maybe? Maybe that gives us insight into what sin really is?

For example if an animal kills another animal that's just nature, it's not evil. But if a human kills another human it's evil, but why? Because we know it's evil?

But that causes another problem. Why is it wrong to kill? Because we know it's wrong to kill right?

Okay, but what made it wrong in the first place so that we could know that it was evil? The answer is nothing. If we didn't know it was evil, it wouldn't be evil and evil would go away. We'd be just like all the rest of God's creations and be in perfect harmony with nature.

Just like being naked. Why would it be wrong or a sin? Well there is no reason other than the fact that we know it's wrong, but if we didn't know that then what would be wrong with it?

Because we know, sin is created and therefore punishment must be created. Why? Well you tell me. It's human's that have created sin and punishment in my opinion and not the other way around and that's what God was upset about, and that's why he set about to eventually try and save us from it.

Look at the legal system. Let's look at how human's deal with sin. When the "guilty" commit a crime, they get punished right? That's how human's deal with sin right?

So, if you want to know why did God punish Adam and Eve's sin then all you have to do is answer the same question about humans. Why do we do the exact same thing? Perhaps it's because like many people believe. That God is actually our collective conscious. It's not God that punished us, it was actually ourselves doing the punishing.

After all, are we to say that it's okay for us to punish sin, but it is not okay for God to do so? So many times I see people getting mad at God for doing the same things human's do everyday to solve the same types of problems.

For example, when the cops see a naked women running down the street in most places, in her natural state like God made her, why does the cop arrest her and take her to jail and lock her in a cell? What has she done wrong? Walked around like God made her? Answer that, and you'll answer a question about Genesis.

What God tells us is that her only sin would be to feel shame about being naked. After all, if she has diminished capacity and doesn't know running down the street naked is wrong then we probably wouldn't punish her and let her go right? What does that tell us? It's not the act that's wrong. What it tells us, is that sin is a state of mind!

We're his creation and therefore should feel no shame. It's actually us, the humans that are oppressing each other trying to make ourselves feel guilt about things, when it fact God tells us the sin is in fact the feeling bad about it or the plotting of it and doing it on purpose, not the act itself.

Sin is just a BS state of mind that humans have actually created and are putting on ourselves because we're animals that think we have to live up to some kind of higher standard than the other animals. The same animals that are in perfect harmony with nature while we bumble around.

But then in the NT Jesus comes and tells us there's a new way than living without this guilt and hell that we have created for ourselves. That he would take it away for us. So, instead of "hiding" from God because of our shame and guilt we can get back in touch with our true selves.

[edit on 14-12-2009 by tinfoilman]

[edit on 14-12-2009 by tinfoilman]

reply to post by tinfoilman


While I somewhat agree that sin is a state of mind...I can't agree completely.

There are things(like blasphemy of the holy spirit maybe?) that people do all the time without feeling guilt. Atheists do this all the time. So, clearly, if blasphemy of the holy spirit is sin, then sin cannot simply equate to the feeling of guilt....

A2D

reply to post by Agree2Disagree


But feeling guilt or shame about something isn't directly why something is a sin. You may or may not feel guilt or shame when you commit a sin, but the reason you may feel shame is because it's a sin.

It's the knowing it's a sin that makes it a sin regardless of if you feel guilt or not. Knowledge from the tree of knowledge is what causes sin and guilt. Both sin and guilt are the by products. It's not that guilt creates sin, it's knowledge of right and wrong that create sin and guilt.

So you may not feel guilt for blasphemy, but it's wrong since you know it's wrong. You may or may not feel guilt though.

But you have to look at it collectively as the whole human conscious. Even if you don't think it's wrong, someone else is perfectly willing to tell you it's wrong and that you have sinned and may or may not be able to make you feel guilty about it.

The actual problem though is the tree of knowledge. Without the knowledge that something is wrong we'd be like animals and there would be no guilt and shame and sin because what makes things that are wrong to do wrong, is that we know they're wrong.

It's like a feedback loop we've got ourselves stuck in.

[edit on 14-12-2009 by tinfoilman]

reply to post by tinfoilman


So...how does this relate to socio/psycho-paths that feel no guilt or shame...? Do they really know that the heinous crimes they often times commit against humanity are considered sins?

Imagine - if you can - not having a conscience, none at all, no feelings of guilt or remorse no matter what you do, no limiting sense of concern for the well-being of strangers, friends, or even family members. Imagine no struggles with shame, not a single one in your whole life, no matter what kind of selfish, lazy, harmful, or immoral action you had taken.

Psychopaths and/or sociopaths may not always be the criminal type, I know...However, if they have no conscience, where does the knowledge of sin come from??

A2D

[edit on 14-12-2009 by Agree2Disagree]

reply to post by theonlyrusty

It is right up there with Santa stories....

So is this it for you as far as any intellectual anatations? This is it?
this is your best?

Well in the mean time .

I've noticed a surge in the No. of threads in this forum lately.
I think I will make a count, get some numbers goin , you know.
How many are being pumped out by people who absolutly hate having Christianity
shoved down their throats constently. 24/7 even in the shower .
you know the blow.


[edit on 14-12-2009 by randyvs]

Hey randyvs,

Not sure what you mean.

Did you mean "annotations"? I really don't know how to reply.......

but.............

Here is where my dilemma begins. I cannot, for the life of me, wrap my head around the entire premise that we are here cause of some "big guy in the sky named "GOD".

The moment that man names this "power, source, infinite intelligence, etc", he puts him into a quart jar of his own (mans) intellect.

Look at the statements below and tell me how they make you "feel"...Not what you "think" about them, but how you feel about them.

God is spirit.
God is A spirit.

To me, the first one is eternal, all encompassing, non - definitive. To me, the second one is descriptive, limiting, presumptuous.

Man, in his limited mind in earlier times, needed to explain his origin and wanted to explain to his fellow man how we all got here. The whole biblical representation of our creation sounds like a childs story when looked at from outside the box. Change a few names here and there and it becomes almost comical. (Substitute the word BOB for GOD in the bible and it is hilarious)

There has to be a base truth for the entire story to work and I can't see one in the bible.

If this seems outrageous (it did to me in the beginning) try this little exercise and see what happens to "YOUR" interpretation of the bible.

Start at the first verse and write down the answers to these questions.

1. Who was there?
2. Who saw it?
3. Who wrote it down?
4. How did it end up in the bible?

If you do that for every single verse, you won't make it very far into Genesis before the light bulb goes off and you say ,"WTF"?

Open it up to any page and do the same thing. Try it with ANY book and it is very enlightening......at least, it was for me.

It's either a story or it is fact. Do YOU want to base your eternal existence on a story?

peas

A2D....

And WHO created the "satans"?

And WHO created the "feelings" or emotions of guilt and shame?

And who gave man the ability to "think" about it?

It is very enlightening (to me) to always ask, "Who created it?"

We may or may not know the "truth" of 911, JFK, Atlantis, etc., but am I just gonna lay down and believe a bunch of stuff that was written 1000's of years ago (maybe) cause I am told, "IT"S gods' word". I don't think so...


peas

"First" they ate from the tree of knowledge not life, the tree of life would of kept humans living longer but we ate from the tree of knowledge FRIEND. Following the REPTILLIAN/serpant casted from HEAVEN where it or they came from and not GOD putting ITS SPECIES AHEAD OF MAMMALS temporarly. Later.

[edit on 12/15/09 by Ophiuchus 13]