Two sides to a story

Hello ATS family,

I was raised in a christian family. My great grandmother co-founded the church I attended. I come form a baptist background. I have since grown out of the need for religious dogma. But I have always wondered something about the context of the Bible. I realized that we know very little as to what supposedly happened in Heaven to began all of this mess. Its said that Lucifer supposedly betrayed God by getting some other angels to mutiny against him. Now its really weird that the details of this was never laid out in the Bible in anyway. So essentially were getting one side of the story. We have never heard Lucifer tell his side of what the hell happened.

I find that strange. Then all we know is that he was cast down onto Earth as punishment and was imprisoned here for eternity. Now first off according to the Bible the Earth and I'm assuming our known universe hadn't been created yet. But yet Lucifer was cast out to Earth. Then we hear from God's point of view that he tricked Adam and Eve into eating of the tree of life. I just cant get pass why we haven't heard Lucifer side of the story. Matter of fact you hear very little about him at all in the biblical text. Its like Lucifer is introduced as the bad guy supposedly influencing mans behavior, yet God/Jesus never encounters Lucifer at all in the Bible except when he supposedly died on the cross and went to hell to fight Lucifer.

So what is Lucifer's story? Could it be in the many missing books form the Bible? I mean God could be Lucifer himself, we only hear the story through Gods eyes. What if God and Lucifer got into a simple disagreement, and God didn't like what Lucifer had to say? Maybe God was just a blow hard and Lucifer got fed up. What if he left on his own accord? These are all probabilities in this story. So Lucifer through the Bible was operating behind the scenes in some unknown place called Hell, manipulating and influencing all the people on Earth at this time with the special exceptions of certain "chosen" individuals.

Now the only real background information on Lucifer is that he was one of God's beloved angels and he was the angel of music. Now if God is the almighty creator and he would have had to created the angels also, why is that when Lucifer rebelled God just "cast" him out of heaven and not just get rid of this guy, or put him in a place were he couldn't upset the balance. The Bible clearly makes Lucifer just as powerful as God. Now I understand the freewill aspect here, however the angles are lower spirit forms that act as messengers and protectors. Even with a retaliation the angels combined power wouldn't over come God or remotely challenge his authority based off of his model.

This now raises more questions. The biggest is why when Jesus died on the cross and went to Hell and battled Lucifer and only managed to do nothing. So with all the "sin" that's going on today what factors are to blame. Is it freewill or Lucifer spreading his sphere of influence? In this case it cant be both. So basically when you analyze the Bible and its concept of why we "sin" then its based on the freewill aspect, not on Lucifer. If it was all based on Lucifer then Jesus' battle with him would have resolved our hypnotic state and restored our natural god like abilities as Jesus stated that we had and could do more with then he. Therefore Lucifer is nothing more then a symbol for freewill/intent. It represents you! A lot can be gleaned from movies which many take for granted or pass of as just entertainment. In Kung Fu Panda, Po's dad near the end told him that there was no secret ingredient to his noodle soups. He just believed that it was special. There is no secret ingredient!

Much Love ATS fam!

Satan was cast out of heaven because he spoke for the free will of humans. He wanted god to allow them to speak and act freely, but god didn't like that. God wanted us to be mindless slaves to him.

I believe that is because his biggest deception would be convincing us he isnt real

reply to post by ROBO6


Hi Rob. I have to say some of what you say comes across as inflammatory, e.g.:

God could be Lucifer himself

but then again I appreciate that's a common way to get a discussion going.

I don't have time just now to go into the deeper aspects of the origins of Satan (which means the Deceiver) but I'd like to clear up a few things that are factually incorrect.

The Bible clearly makes Lucifer just as powerful as God.

I'm afraid this suggests you really haven't got to know the Bible well at all. I don't mean to sound rude, it's just so far from the Biblical world-view as to leave me wondering how you could reach such a conclusion other than via urban myth.

The Creator is infinite in power, knowledge, understanding, goodness and love, and is furthermore present everywhere. Lucifer, as you prefer to call him (though there is only one place in the Bible he is possibly referred to in that way) is a totally finite creature - though I suppose you could argue he enjoys limitless hopelessness and vengeful malevolence within his twisted being.

But imagine a (sick) ant plotting the demise of NATO, and you get a little nearer the Biblical perspective.

Its like Lucifer is introduced as the bad guy supposedly influencing mans behavior, yet God/Jesus never encounters Lucifer at all in the Bible except when he supposedly died on the cross and went to hell to fight Lucifer.

I'm afraid this is again factually incorrect, and the latter part is particularly confused. (Again, I don't mean to sound rude, it's just a bit shocking to anyone who knows the Bible.)

The Bible from Genesis to Revelation is full of references to the efforts of the Deceiver to thwart God's purposes. Perhaps one key passage will suffice here:

Matthew 4

The Temptation of Jesus

1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the Devil. 2 After He had fasted 40 days and 40 nights, He was hungry. 3 Then the tempter approached Him and said, "If You are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread."

4 But He answered, "It is written:

Man must not live on bread alone

but on every word that comes

from the mouth of God. "

5 Then the Devil took Him to the holy city, had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple, 6 and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written:

He will give His angels orders concerning you and,

they will support you with their hands

so that you will not strike

your foot against a stone. "

7 Jesus told him, "It is also written: Do not test the Lord your God. "

8 Again, the Devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 And he said to Him, "I will give You all these things if You will fall down and worship me."

10 Then Jesus told him, "Go away, Satan! For it is written:

Worship the Lord your God,

and serve only Him."

11 Then the Devil left Him, and immediately angels came and began to serve Him.

As to the idea that Christ went to Hell to engage in some kind of a bust-up with this creature, it simply reflects a misunderstanding of what happened at the Cross. Satan was actually defeated through the rejection, suffering and death of Christ. That is why Christ cried out:

It is FINISHED!

The punishment for the sin of His people had been taken, and as God will not exact punishment a second time Satan could no longer justly claim that God's people should not enter Heaven for eternity.

This is actually the ultimate demonstration of how God's perfect power and knowledge compare to that of Satan's. By whipping up anti-Christ (think about it) sentiments in the people he sealed his own defeat.

This is how the apostle Peter put it:

Acts 2

22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: This Jesus the Nazarene was a man pointed out to you by God with miracles, wonders, and signs that God did among you through Him, just as you yourselves know. 23 Though He was delivered up according to God's determined plan and foreknowledge, you used lawless people to nail Him to a cross and kill Him.

God's plan was fulfilled perfectly in that He permitted Satan to do his worst. Satan thereby committed the ultimate crime, and sealed his condemnation, whereas the people who had fulfilled his desires were offered forgiveness. The difference is that (in keeping with what Christ prayed) the Father was prepared to offer forgiveness to those who had not known what they were doing. Satan - who knew full well - receives no such offer.

Satan is the Ultimate Loser.

As to your conclusion that

Lucifer is nothing more then a symbol for freewill/intent. It represents you!

I can only say you are free to believe what you will. Those who are aware of the reality of demonic beings - both Christians and non-Christians - would say you are mighty confused on the matter.





[edit on 14/12/09 by pause4thought]

Originally posted by paranoiaFTW
Satan was cast out of heaven because he spoke for the free will of humans. He wanted god to allow them to speak and act freely, but god didn't like that. God wanted us to be mindless slaves to him.

Actually, how harsh it even sounds. It does kinda sound like that yes.

Who knows. People been blaming every stupid action they do on satan. Like satan MADE them do something evil. But who made satan do something 'evil'?

Satan just stood up for what he thought. And 'God' probably didnt like that.

So people nowadays portray him as THÉ bad guy.
I'm not saying satan is the good guy, But u may never know u know.

If u were the bad guy like 'satan/lucifer' or whatever u want to call it, wouldnt u change up the whole bible into something else?!

Just wondering thought, u might never know.

But thats all just my own view on that.

peace

[edit on 14-12-2009 by MisterP]

reply to post by paranoiaFTW


Couldnt be more wrong. Satan was cast from heaven because of pride. He wanted to exalt himself above God(I personally disagee with the actions God takes after this, Why not share the throne...). Satan also wanted there to be no free will, Freewill is a gift fom God, If you read Genesis you'd know this. Only after Adam had eaten the fruit was Free will given.

Its far to complicated to know exactly what happened in the Garden, Considering there was a 3,000 year gap before Genesis was actually written.

reply to post by ROBO6


Great post. I will be following closely.

Although I disagee with you on how Sin is either caused by Satan or Free will. It is both, or, One giving momentum to the other. As in, Satan tempting out free will in order to make us sin. I cant find any scriptures that say free will is a sin.

Originally posted by Ghost in the Machine
reply to post by ROBO6

 

Great post. I will be following closely.

Although I disagee with you on how Sin is either caused by Satan or Free will. It is both, or, One giving momentum to the other. As in, Satan tempting out free will in order to make us sin. I cant find any scriptures that say free will is a sin.

Yea u do have a free will, but what i understand of bible basicly is; Do 'Gods' will or burn. And that u cant have a personal opinion or view on something.

I Disagree on alot of things in the bible. But thats my own view on things.

But i might be wrong. It's really hard to trust such an old 'book' to be 100% correct after all these years. especially in these days.

If u was the the 'bad guy'... wouldnt u change the Bible into something that would make u look like the good guy? Wouldnt u change everything into what u want?

Just wondering though, i wouldnt be surprised if thats how it went down...

once again, just my personal view on it

peace



[edit on 14-12-2009 by MisterP]

reply to post by MisterP


I agree with you, I should have added the God or Burning forever in my post. Im probably going to get shot down for saying this, But perhaps free will means that there is a chance that the serpent could prevail. Just saying that if he could bring sin into heaven.... yeah.

reply to post by Ghost in the Machine


Yes. I really get confused about things in the bible....

Just like. IF u got to heaven/paradise, there will be NO SIN at all and everybody wil be perfect. Does that mean God is controlling the people in heaven/paradise then into acting 'good' and control them to 'love' God???

We cant even live sinless on earth, how can we in heaven?

Who made satan turn 'evil' in the first place????

I got too many questions lol

But yeah, its all verry complicated and confusing to me.

The reason you won't find the story of Lucifer's fall in the bible is because it's based on Pre-monotheist Cannanite astronomy. Lucifer is the morning star - the planet Venus. it shines brightest just before the sun rises, leading to a myth that this morning star is trying to usurp the rightful god of daylight, only to be cast down as soon as said god (that being the sun, of course) notices the attempt.

As for hpw the figure fits into Judeao-christian mythos.. .Satan is a servant of God. Look at the story of Job. Or the temptation of jesus. Satan serves god's will by testing the dedication of mankind. By rejecting his temptations, mankinf reaffirms their dedication to god. Pretty standard trickster-figure stuff.

This is perhaps best reflected in the Islamic story of Iblis, who refused to bow before mankind at the demand of God, and was thus alotted a place as a sort of divine enemy.

Originally posted by MisterP
reply to post by Ghost in the Machine

 

Yes. I really get confused about things in the bible....

Just like. IF u got to heaven/paradise, there will be NO SIN at all and everybody wil be perfect. Does that mean God is controlling the people in heaven/paradise then into acting 'good' and control them to 'love' God???

We cant even live sinless on earth, how can we in heaven?

Who made satan turn 'evil' in the first place????

I got too many questions

lol

But yeah, its all verry complicated and confusing to me.

I understand completely.

I do believe in God, I just dont think he is as powerful and perfect as the bible says he is. Then again that is just my personal opinion.

Originally posted by Ghost in the Machine

Originally posted by MisterP
reply to post by Ghost in the Machine

 

Yes. I really get confused about things in the bible....

Just like. IF u got to heaven/paradise, there will be NO SIN at all and everybody wil be perfect. Does that mean God is controlling the people in heaven/paradise then into acting 'good' and control them to 'love' God???

We cant even live sinless on earth, how can we in heaven?

Who made satan turn 'evil' in the first place????

I got too many questions

lol

But yeah, its all verry complicated and confusing to me.

I understand completely.

I do believe in God, I just dont think he is as powerful and perfect as the bible says he is. Then again that is just my personal opinion.

Right man, feel that. I also do believe in a creator being.

Also, how do we know all the 'god' sightings in the bible were all the same entities?

reply to post by pause4thought


Ok, P4T. I will say its been a while since Ive read the Bible's. The flaws you pointed I wont argue with you on as you refreshed my memory of a few things that I had previously read. However these points are mute, it still doesnt answer the question of who Satan/Lucifer really is. Again were hearing this whole story from God'd perspective. You speak of God being this perfect and all knowing being when his action throughout the Bible clearly dont match his model. The mere ability to know all would give God no incentive to create any of this, knowing the outcome other then just to play a game.

So looking at it in its wholeness, Lucifer's presence has to effect the entire universe. Not just humans on Earth. This then gets into other lifeforms in the entire universe existing under the "laws of God". Only God has infinite reach and influence but this clearly makes Lucifer just as powerful as God. Of course you can draw the conclusions you've made when you look at it in a linear fashion as you have P4T. So looking at it form a wholistic view point Lucifer exist multi-dimensionally exploiting the freewill aspect of God's "children" on a universal scale. But this is completely against many Christians view cause now you have to factor in ETE's. And the religious community just cant swallow that idea.To that effect it would explain a lot of the "super natural" stuff that went on. The Bible is nothing more then a collection of stories of ET contacts.

Its funny how the Bible is defended so religiously knowing that its entire essence has been severely tampered with. The original messages changed by the Pharaoh's and then changed even more by King James. We all know Jame's story and he wasn't a nice guy and didn't give crap about the pilgrims. Took their Bible completely changed it and made it so that even the scholars changing it couldn't contest it. And today that's the main Bible that Christians "read". And from that we have all these different iterations of the King James Version. Remember version is synonymous with opinion.

I didn't mean to get off track with the original question of the story of Lucifer, but I wanted to interject those thoughts as a basis as to why you think I'm so confused. I lived in the church and was made to read the Bible. I didn't like it but didn't have much choice in the matter. Now that I have for a long time the freedom to actually think for myself concerning religion I can see that many devoted Christians haven't used their discernment in the readings.

You only covered my flaws in events of Lucifer but my question of his story is still unanswered. Also the other question was what controls the sin aspect? Is it Lucifer or is it freewill. Its obvious that Lucifer is exploiting mans freewill aspect to act. But is it man or is it Lucifer. See the confusion? Its gets more complicated when you talk about Adam and Eve. Its completly illogical when you factor in Lucifer. So if freewill didnt exist before the eating of the fruits how did Lucifer even make a choice to rebel? Haha, I mean its crazy when you really discern the events in the Bible. Then apply that universally.

If the Bible is "God's word" then why are there uncovered artifacts and ruins of past civilizations that predate the Bible by 5-10 thousand years. Ancient documents that describe nothing of God, or Jesus or any of those characters. But religious people wont touch that. This is from a whoelistic view not just "what the Bible says".

reply to post by MisterP


Exactly MisterP. We don't know if the angel encounters or God encounters were all the same guy. Pause4Thought made some points about my misunderstanding of the events and Lucifer. The reply comes off like he's very versed in the text. But people like P4T seem to miss little things like this in Genesis when he was creating man. God said "Let US make man in OUR own image". Or in Chapter 11 the story of the of the people of Bable when God said, "Let US seperate them and make them speak different languages, etc.".

That's precisely the kind of thing that your talking about. The sheer amount of contradictions and God model breakdowns is staggering within the teat to such a degree not even the ministers get it. But they get that money though. So whats the excuse Christan make concerning that. They say he was talking to the Holy Spirit and I guess Jesus. God is always represented as a Trio. Father, Son and Holy Ghost all in one. Its illogical for that to even occur.

Reading the Bible you see all kinds of different contacts with "God's" and you have no way of knowing if it was the same entity or not. So factor in that language during those times was limited and yet these events are taken at face value and never truly discerned. Prime examples of Ezekiel and his wheel within a wheel, which Im sure has been covered on this forum at some point in time. Or Nebuchadnezzar "fiery furnace" in which 3 entered and 4 came out. LOL, and when you ask Christan about these things as to why they don't happen now, they say because faith and belief are not like it used to be. Thats just ludicrous. I mean how do you measure devotion in this sense? So thats saying that there are no Christians living to day with that kind of devoted focus in God. Thats crazy, yet they cant do anything Jesus did but he promised that in the Bible.

reply to post by ROBO6


hey friend,

you may want to read through the Book of Enoch, its one of those books left out of the Bible which you spoke of.

here's a link: www.earth-history.com...


there's so much twisting & spin on the religious subject to unravel in a thread, you'll need an independent course of study

for instance 'Satan' nee; Lucifer, lost it's 'Station' in the 3rd heaven,
it was not yet cast down to Earth...even now - and in the future GreatTribulation, Satan is there at the throne of God-the-Father
pointing out and accusing the believers & followers
(ergo they are either Left-Behind or else the believers undergo the Tribulation and get beheaded along with a multitude of others)

i think the 3 Temptations of Jesus -aka Christ, is already covered.

the It Is Finished cry from the crucified 'Jesus/Christ'
could mean what P4T explained...but it 'could' mean that the 'New Covenant' was finalized.
Which would go a way to explain how the thief on the cross beside Jesus
was told 'Today You Will Be...in Paradise'...instead of spending
the 3 days in Hades as Jesus is said to have done according to religious doctrine.

reminder, even Jesus said the 'World' was Lucifers'-Satans' domain,
having Powers and Dominions, even in the air. (as the land & sea were a given)


meditate, pray, for eyes to discern, the great deception is multi-multi-layered, lie upon lie

reply to post by St Udio


Hi. Hope you don't mind me cutting in briefly. I wish I had time at this point to answer Rob's points (and I do hope to) but there's just way too much.

Rob - you may be surprised how many of your points have very good answers. Meantime I just apologize if I came over a bit strong. I wasn't meaning to put you down - just say I believe you were under some misapprehensions.

St. Udio -

the It Is Finished cry from the crucified 'Jesus/Christ'
could mean what P4T explained...but it 'could' mean that the 'New Covenant' was finalized.

You're perfectly right. It's both, in fact - the two can't be separated.

Which would go a way to explain how the thief on the cross beside Jesus
was told 'Today You Will Be...in Paradise'...instead of spending
the 3 days in Hades as Jesus is said to have done according to religious doctrine.

Right again. Moreover the two words omitted from that quote show that the (?Roman Catholic?) doctrine that Christ spent time in Hell is very probably wrong. The quote in full:

Today you will be with Me in Paradise

...surely means that Christ returned to Heaven once His mission had been completed - i.e. on the Cross.



[edit on 14/12/09 by pause4thought]

Originally posted by St Udio
reply to post by ROBO6

 

reminder, even Jesus said the 'World' was Lucifers'-Satans' domain,
having Powers and Dominions, even in the air. (as the land & sea were a given)

Ok if this is the case then that has to include all planets on the entire universe. Not just Earth. And if it Lucifer just has dominion over Earth then that means other Gods exist along with "The God". So this is problematic no matter how you cut it. The whole thing is deceptive. The ETE's are giving us bits of information about how we came to be, the positive ones that is, and the evidence of their presence here since our inception is documented in ancient text such as the Mayan's and Seminarians. These civilization predate the Bible by thousands of years. Then here comes this Bible thing and all of a sudden its this religious myth of man being made from some damned dirt and women coming from a rib. Thats not delusional but the natives that believe in dragons living in volcano's is? Its ridiculous. And this information is completely ignored by religious practitioners.

So basically what your saying is that Lucifer has dominion only over Earth. So what about the rest of the planets? Whats making these guys on other worlds "sin". The Bible clearly associates Lucifer as the essence of evil but man takes the blame cause he was to stupid, not ignorant, to know any better, (that's a thread in itself). Does the Biblical events even apply to these guys. In this case it would seem not. And this makes God look more infinitesimal cause now you can conclude that HIS sphere of influence is limited to just the Earth also.

So it all boils down to freewill/intent. I'm either going to try to control and manipulate, or empower and uplift. Its all deliberate intent. But you hear Christians running around saying. "Whooooo girl, the devil is trying to ruin my day". Its always blamed on the devil for their influences when its really yourself making freewill choices using the law of attraction and deliberate intent. You/We create the "sin" or influence/reality. The devil has nothing to do with it. Devil/Satan/Lucifer or whatever you want to call this guy is a no thing. He doesn't exist.

Even with this fact, and yes I said fact within the Biblical arena we still haven't heard it from Lucifer's point of view. Its always some outside party telling people about what he supposedly did. Like I mentioned before Lucifer could really be the God and was usurper by this perpetrator who claims to be God. We don't know. All we know is that God ousted Lucifer and he was trapped here and hes a bad guy. No events before describing what happened prior to Lucifer's quarantine. To add more to the confusion, hundreds of missing books form the bible that has gone unexplained, Major and Severe tampering with the text from its inception to present day, hundreds of different written Bibles, other religions that have the same stories but argue about who's God is better, ancient text and real evidence of ETE visitation hundreds of thousands of years before this God guy was thought up, huge monolithic structures and artifacts that cant be replicated to this day, and the list goes on.

And Christians continue to call themselves devotees and don't follow any of the commands that God/Jesus told them to do. None of it. I don't mean to come off like I'm angry cause I'm not. I'm just baffled that calling oneself intelligent but don't use logic as a basis for their beliefs. If Christianity and all these other religions were the "One" then why hasn't any one that practices them reached a level of enlightenment to do the things specifically that Jesus we could do and more then him, like manifestations, and making 100 loves of bread. But no one has accomplished that, ever and these religions haven't created peace.

Ahhhh, it must be the Devil.

reply to post by ROBO6

If Christianity and all these other religions were the "One" then why hasn't any one that practices them reached a level of enlightenment to do the things specifically that Jesus we could do and more then him, like manifestations, and making 100 loves of bread. But no one has accomplished that, ever and these religions haven't created peace.

The ability to do such things has nothing to do with enlightenment. Christ could do these things because He was/is the Son of God.

Even the greatest prophets - never mind ordinary believers - asked for God to do things. Christ just spoke, and it happened. I.e. He was the source of the power, not simply a channel. Just one example is when he spoke to a dead child:

Then He took the child by the hand and said to her, "Talitha koum!" (which is translated, "Little girl, I say to you, get up!" ).

Mark 5:41

The very fact that He, and no other, could do such things had a purpose: to show that He was/is unique, and no mere man!

The biggest is why when Jesus died on the cross and went to Hell and battled Lucifer and only managed to do nothing.

What???
Are you talking about the version of the bible you wrote?