GIVE me Liberty? Not necessary ...

reply to post by justamomma

I have to admit that I do not at all agree with this line of thinking and find it to be a chain on the mind MUCH more powerful and *worse* than any bonds that could be placed on my wrist. If I choose death because "our" perception of freedom is being threatened, then I am certain to not have liberty ever. There is not liberty in death and rather it is the end of Life.

True, today, much of freedom is a perception because we are taught (as Americans) that we are free. But the genuine article is indeed worth dying for.

To die defending what I know to be freedom, is every cent worth it.

But again, so much has been lost and now too, so many of today's youth have grown up without it that they simply have no notion of what it is, what it really means. Today's concept of freedom is by no stretch anywhere close to what we once had, or what was intended.

Today, we are nestled snugly in the bosom of a state-promised sense of temporary security. And it is for that perception, that we surrendered those freedoms that were one-by-one selectively and carefully removed... so as not to arose attention.

For what is left me and mine, as well as those of my generation who recall a brighter day when liberty was a wholesome truth, it is sad... but nonetheless still worth defending.

Many of us today have now sworn that the loss must end here and that this line we have now drawn will not be crossed less we are called upon to then, finally, decide that life without liberty is not worth the time living.

You may, of course, choose to live and believe as you choose. That is your right in the liberty I would defend.

Originally posted by Subjective Truth
As long as you hold these truths to be self evident you will always be free. We live in historic times my friends and never in our lifetimes have the truths they hold and the truths we hold been so far apart.

What is truth? Remember what seems the greater reality to YOU is not the greater reality to another in their own perception of Life. Then .. again .. what is truth?

(this is not a trick question as I do know that there is an answer here ... but it will require to really think through even these words that SOUND good to us to EVEN BEGIN on the path toward Truth ... ***NARROW*** is the road and ***FEW*** are they who find it ----> BUT that is not because it is so hard to find and rather it is because what most ppl want is not freedom and rather to hold on to their security blankets. When you start to question what you were told is courage and freedom, as the enlightenment comes, it is shocking that indeed, we have the eyes to see and yet, the blinders are held in place by our ownselves)



[edit on 15-12-2009 by justamomma]

Originally posted by eight bits
One of the nice things about having liberty is that you can make hypothetical resolutions about what, if anything, you would die for. But Mr Henry wasn't describing his preference between dying for liberty and living without it. Those were not the options available to him.

He was instead being brief and blunt about which he chose between the two options that were actually available to him. At the time he spoke, there remained some uncertainty about whether or not the Crown would suppress the American revolution. So, his report of his choice had an or in it.

Mr Henry could have remained loyal (leading to political reward or something less pleasant, depending on the fortunes of war), or else to rebel (leading to liberty or death, depending also on those same fortunes). He chose to rebel.

That much he could choose. How his choice turned out for him, he would have to wait and see. But that his choice was potentially fatal, whichever way he chose, was simply a ground fact.

As to Mr Henry's dealings with natives and slaves, there is a lot of innocent blood shed in the American story. So, too, in the stories of other nations. So what?

He died of stomach cancer and not on the battle field. We all die .. this is as much a part of Life as are the decisions we make whilst in it. Most of you in this thread thus far are incapable of making decisions, let alone wise decisions, because you have yet to education yourself to even know WHAT your choices actually are ...

"Sounding" heroic is not the same thing as being heroic. The child worth their space on this planet WILL BE more wise than the parent. Then, one no longer has to wonder why the world is in the state it is in today .... lack of wisdom and even, we have digressed so as to be in a state of great confusion.

As for your last sentence ..... I understand that you don't see, but it shows well the hypocrisy of this statement of Patrick Henry's.

Give me liberty or give me death

If a stranger enters your home to rob and rape you I hope your pen is sharp.

I continue to stand by Patrick Henry's words. I will never bow to another God but my own nor will I stand by and see my family or fellow countrymen attacked and led to slavery.

I would never take my own life. But I will stand up for what I believe in and not wither into a spineless lump of flesh.

If I have but one life to live I will live it to fight for freedom of soul and body.

I will fight and give my life for your freedoms as well.

Originally posted by endisnighe
reply to post by justamomma

 

Yes, it would have been a much nicer world if we Americans would have just acquiesced to the throne.

See, you agree with one poster because he interprets a quote to what you believe to be true, and then throw aside the most profound quote because you do not believe in it. That is hypocrisy.

How so? The poster I commended was speaking historical fact and not "interpretation" of the words alone ...

Then, what you call MY preferred interpretation is not at all interpretation and the way that history has recorded his life. I look at the life of the writer to know the spirit in which the author has penned his thoughts.

Gandhi's actions show a MUCH more agressive (yet wise) approahc than most are even aware of ... there is a man who was not passive in that his life backed up his words and in that light of truth (being his life lived), we find the wisdom of his words.

The life lived speaks the intent of the writers ... and thus, to know the life of the writer before spewing out his words as though we are robots is wisdom, not hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is to discard the life lived of the author to preach only the words.

Do you not understand what it means that "actions speak louder than words?" Educate yourself to know why this is wisdom. You can begin this education by eating ALL the words that you may be spewing forth .. chew and swallow! Suddenly, words are not just words and wisdom is to know your words BEFORE you actually preach it to others.

If you really believe that the founding fathers and all of the rebels of the American Revolution did it for themselves and not for their families and countrymen, you are delusional.

HEY! I am not against what they did because it is a good lesson to learn of what LIBERTY actually is and what it is not. However, you are losing the battle to tread water in this discussion when you tell me that I am delusional given you have not even bothered to educate yourself as is clear by your first senteneces.

I, have no children and I would gladly die to ensure that my family and friends would not be conscripted to the Globalized Tyranny soon to be unleashed on the world.

Please! If we are actually in danger of being thrown into world wide tyranny, then it is because we have asked for it. This is what I mean when I say that most are not even knowledgable enough to know what choices they have let alone the decisions they should be making to keep themselves from evil. Then, you enslave your own self ... in this case, most will be making the choice to exterminate theirselves and the wise will remain to enjoy the liberty they had all along. It isn't as though you aren't being warned to choose life and not death ... you all hear the choice being given to you, but you are deceived by your own mind.

You can try to blame others for it to play the victim ... but it doesn't change the fact that liberty is already in you if you choose to accept it. It isn't heroic what you say here and rather it is the mark of the unliberated mind.

Therefore this will be my last comment here.

I guess we must agree to disagree.

If you refuse to reason this out, then that is your choice. I am at least happy you gave it your best effort (though yet weak) ... then, there is still a spark of hope out there.

Another quote I love-"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animating contest of freedom, go from us in peace.We seek not your counsel or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; may your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!" --Samuel Adams

even the first two thoughts in this quote can be quite opposing .. even more so when you know the life of this author.

"Go from us in peace .. we seek not your counsel or your arms"

Originally posted by JayinAR
reply to post by justamomma

 

So, out of curiousity, are you trying to tell me that the Jewish faith doesn't teach original sin?

I don't care a bit about the Nazi Holocaust comments, they have absolutely no bearing on the subject.

The holocaust has bearing on the subject for others but no worries, I have no need to dwell on it and thus, will only reply on the subject to those who do see its relevence.

And no ... Jewish People do not take the stance of original sin ... at least not in the view that Christians do. First of all, most of the Jewish know that the story of Adam and the Woman is not a story of OTHER persons and rather we read it through our OWN mind .. as it applies to us both as a People and as individuals.

The Jewish People have drawn MUCH wisdom from the writing of Genesis 1-3, but to use it as a tool for placing the blame onto others is not wisdom and thus, not the way we view it.

Besides, read the account as it is written and use what you KNOW in life to be truth ... in other words take off the blinders of mysticism to see that this is not story about SIN and rather it is lesson learned regarding the Law of God (which is cause and effect) ... to teach one to know the Voice of Wisdom. Then, there Adam and Woman are not worthy of being condemned here by mankind and it is the wise who see why ...

Evolution is what the Tanach confirms as God's Way ... again, take off the blinders that are on the eyes of your mind and you will be amazed at what you can know.

We, the Jewish, would not dare to accuse God of being incompetent in how He created us .. that being, the spiritual creation (the physical is the manifestation of the spiritual and not at all a seperate creation .. in fact, the one would not exist without the other ... even the scientist know this on a subconscience level and are busy trying to understand so as to explain what we, the Jewish People, already know .. Even the Egyptians knew of it and they chose to manipulate the knowledge ... the manipulation is still in effect today, only the manipulators have fallen victim to their own deception Pay attention as there is much to SEE ).

[edit on 15-12-2009 by justamomma]

Originally posted by Subjective Truth
Alot of people do not know this but the jewish people could loan money at an interest rate while others could not during the weimar republic and the that pissed alot of people off. Remember germany was having a very hard economic and social problems at the time which gave rise to the socialist party (Hitlers third reich). That is why I am very afraid of what is happing across this world right now with the rise of socialism. It is a bad thing and history does repeat itself. I gave just one way of looking at it this issue is very wide and deep with alot of hurt on both sides. I beleive this is why isreal is so inclusive and almost paranoid today they will never die on their knees again. I hope americans do not have to learn the same lessons they have but like I said history repeats itself.

The Jewish did not die on their knees, my friend. I hear what you are saying, but you are only seeing what you have been told to see ... and what is actually there to see (given that it is blatantly in front of your eyes) is that the People did NOT die on their knees ... they did not die and even are stronger than most see (DESPITE EVEN having been scattered without a Land of their own for almost 2,000 years).

NOW HERE IS KEY KNOWLEDGE TO UNDERSTAND : Israel, the state, is not the same as the Israel, the People, of which the Jewish are a very important part of. You mistake Israelis for the Jewish People. The Jewish People are not paranoid ... in fact, the world is not listening to all the Jewish People and even the Muslim People who are not bowing down to the propaganda that screams "SERVE YOUR NATION AS A PATRIOT" .. and rather, they are crossing the lines of "war" to educate and help those of the needy, even the needy who are being smothered beneath the ignorance of the world .. the Jewish DO NOT oppress the stranger in their land and if you hear of one who supports such .. they are not ACTUALLY Jewish and either a reprobate or an imposter, that being someone who becomes Jewish to further their agenda.

Read the Jewish Laws and you will see it is against our Laws to do what is being done under the state flag ... Exodus 23:9 being one place to see what I mean.

Want to see it clearly stated??? Ezekiel 18 We don't throw away the lives of others for our gain ... that is the mark of an ACTUAL Jew who is part of the Jewish People (the Soul of the People) .....

Having said this ... then, there are those who are "in sin" ... but as most of you, those who are doing such are acting and/or speaking from fear and lack of knowlege. Then, Hosea 4:6 is profound wisdom on all sides of the coin. They are "cut off" from the soul of the People until they hear and obey the command at which time they are restored to the People ... and that is clearly stated in Ezekiel 18:20-24, 32. That is why it is best to let individuals be judged of their own peers or be sure sure to know the People THOROUGLY (via walking in their shoes) and what it is that makes them a People ... else you are apt to judge unfairly, only adding to the hostility in the world that comes when ignorance abounds.

[edit on 15-12-2009 by justamomma]