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The Zuni Indians - Only one murder in 300 years.

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posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 05:48 AM
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Robert Anton Wilson @ the Disinformation Seminar.
Relevant parts transcribed with care by B.Morrison.
Discussing differences between societies regarding abuse, etc....
Including America, the people of the Trobriand islands & the Zuni Indians.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"wherever you find genital mutilation, you're going to find that men are superior to women, society is very warlike, children are frequently beaten or otherwise abused, there's a 'father' god, strict code of morality, women are killed for premarital sex..........."

"where you find women have a low status, you will find circumcision..male &/or female.... ( i'll spare the details...
) when you find a society like that they're always very warlike, men have a much higher status than women, women live basically slave lives, harems are common, polygamy is common - which means women are having sex with men they don't really 'dig' but they're being forced into it & insult sensitivity is very high, you can get killed for insulting one another."

"on the other hand, wherever you find the absence of genital mutilation you generally find men & women are equal, there's hardly any wars, sometimes there are no wars at all, rape is unknown usually, like in the trobriand islands, the Zuni indians can only remember ONE murder in their entire history, and they only remember that because they're an oral culture & oral cultures remember things longer than literate cultures.

The ONE murder in Zuni history happened over 300 years ago and the Zuni's are STILL ashamed of it and STILL to this day don't know why it happened....

whereas the patrist culture of the united states as a whole I think we have one murder every 7 minutes if I remember the statistics correctly, and I think we have one rape every 3 minutes. And of course, we have plenty of genital mutilation, although its only practised on women by people of Arabian decent it's practised on the whole male population by doctors who assure us the procedure is scientifically necessary...

no scientific justification for circumcision has ever been published that made any sense whatsoever.

but the thing that Mayo (?) addresses, is that the doctors HEAR the babies SCREAMING in agony... but it doesn't register on them...why?

because they have patrist armoured values, they've shut down their own emotions so they can't recognise anyone else's emotions, an infant screaming is just one of the side effects of 'normal' procedure, just like slapping them on the backside right after their born...

Isn't that a great way to enter to human race!?"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

He says a lot more in the video,
but I've transcribed the relevant parts, if you want the rest, buy the DVD.

P.L.U.R.I
-B.Morrison

P.S) I hope this opens some herd-like minds to the possibility of changing for the better


[edit on 10/12/09 by B.Morrison]

[edit on 10/12/09 by B.Morrison]




posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 09:39 AM
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reply to post by B.Morrison
 

well i got a star and that's nice, but like is someone boycotting my thread
or are people just not that interested in a culture that's managed to only have one murder in its entire history....? there's something very disturbing about that revelation if it is the case.

because isn't that (1murder in300yrs) kind of the closest thing to a truely 'peaceful' society on this planet???

I thought it was a desirable thing...y'know?

-B.M



posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 09:55 AM
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That is pretty interesting , but I'd like to know a little more about these Zuni Indians .
It may be due to there population size I'm guessing , a smaller more tight knit community would have rely on their neighbors a little more for support to live etc than larger societies .

I'm guessing they are raised with different values than a lot of other previous and present cultures .
Do they have some form of religion ?
By the way I'm circumcised and I wouldn't describe myself as a violent or particularly aggressive person .
After all its just a flap of skin

edit: words wrong

[edit on 10-12-2009 by Takka]



posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 09:59 AM
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reply to post by B.Morrison
 


Well just so you don't feel like your being ignored I can honestly say your post surprised me... I've known a good number of Zuni tribal members all my life... they make some of the best silver jewelry in the world ya know... they also have a rather troubled past...

that takes us to how you define murder....

The Zuni's have this history of warding off Dine (Navajo) raiders. one famous local story is of a US indian agent being sent out to stop the conflict between the two tribes and some how this white man from Washington would become a Zuni war chief and led battles against the Navajo.

there certainly has been a lot of killing going on especially when Don Juan de Oñate Salazar triggered such bad will between the Spanish settlers and Native peoples (He ordered indian slaves have their right foots be cut off after they tried to fight back and lost) that event would later trigger the Pueblo Revolt of 1680...

So if you define murder as one Zuni killing another Zuni... yeah I can buy that claim... but if you define murder as one human killing another human with malice then your statement is erroneous...

Still it makes for an interesting theory...

Edit to add : I happen to be Jicarilla Apache and dated a few good looking Zuni's back in the day


[edit on 10-12-2009 by DaddyBare]



posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 10:16 AM
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I think it's worthwhile to study what might make some tribes more peaceful and other tribes more warlike, so this is a topic that should be explored. Perhaps if you had also posted a link or two to provide further reading in the OP it might help readers of your thread if there is any information about the Zuni online, and I don't have time to research it right now.

I think your presentation of statistics needs further thought when comparing the number of murders per unit time for a large population versus for a small population.even if the murder rate is IDENTICAL, posting such a comparison will make the higher population always show more murders per unit time, so this isn't really the most valid comparison.

So one question would be is, how many Zuni are there, or have there been for the last 300 years?

Lastly, I have lived in or near a couple of cities that had high shooting/murder rates connected with drugs. I don't understand all the dynamics involved with this, but I have to wonder if it has anything to do with drugs being illegal? I watched an interesting show about the history of drug laws and while drugs have been illegal during our lifetime, they haven't always been so and it got me wondering if the cure (making drugs illegal) is worse than the disease (people using drugs). We not only have many drug related murders but also jails filling up with drug related crimes where the druggies get exposed to more hardened criminals and may just come out of prison worse for the experience.

I mention that because I have often wondered what we could do to reduce the murder rates we have. When I have more time I'll research the Zuni and see if anything useful to our society can be learned from them.



posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 10:24 AM
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Some interesting points to add to the discussion.

Regarding someone's question about how religious they are:


Zuni life, much like it was in the past, is still deeply religious and very different from that of other tribes. The Zuni gods are believed to reside in the lakes of Arizona and New Mexico . The chiefs and the shamans carry out ceremonies during religious festivals. Song and dance accompanies masked performances by the chiefs while the shamans pray to the gods for favors ranging from fertile soil to abundant amounts of rain. The shamans play an important role in the community as they are looked upon for guidance as well as knowledge and healing.

The Zuni people are, in a way, a mysterious tribe. The Zuni Reservation is isolated from the outside world which allows the people to go about their existence relatively unencumbered by modern western civilization. They still live a peaceful, deeply religious existence. The reliance on corn as a mainstay of their economy has been replaced, however, by the tourist trade in pottery and jewelry.



Information about population:

The Zuni are distinct in that they have managed to remain quite unaffected by outer influences. They still claim the same land they always lived on, an area about the size of Rhode Island. They also mainly reside in one city -- Zuni, New Mexico . Although there are Zuni Indians who live outside of the city and the general area, they are few and far between. The tribe has managed to remain intact due to the fact that they did not get involved in problems, conflicts, or wars that didn’t concern their own people. Remaining autonomous, they were relatively unaffected by the changes around them.




The Zuni people, like other Pueblo Indians, are believed to be the descendents of the Ancient Puebloans who lived in the desert Southwest of New Mexico, Arizona, Southern Colorado and Utah for a thousand years. Today the Zuni Pueblo, some 35 miles south of Gallup, New Mexico has a population of about 6,000. Archeological evidence shows they have lived in this location for about 1,300 years.
Link for all quotes: www.legendsofamerica.com...

So, to compare apples to apples.
Rhode Island has approximately 1 million people living in the same area as the Zuni tribe. 6000 compared to 1000000. That alone increases the chance of conflict.

Nonetheless, the murder rate in Rhode Island for 2008 was 29 with a population of 1,050,788. Source:www.disastercenter.com...

Using those numbers, there was one murder for every 36,234 people.

[edit on 10-12-2009 by lpowell0627]



posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 10:28 AM
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reply to post by Arbitrageur
 


I don't think or kind OP can help you in your search for more (Real) info..
but I might...
A:shiwi (Ahhhh-she-we, the name the Zuni people call themselves)

While many anthropologists believe that the Zuni are related to the other pueblo tribes that are scattered throughout the Southwest, they are unique in that their language, to this day, is only spoken by them and bares no resemblance to the languages of any of the other surrounding tribes. Their language is often called Zunian

The civil government is of a form generally imposed upon the Pueblos by Spanish influence. The governor,'Tapupu', and the lieutenant-governor, 'Tsipalaa-shiwanni', are appointed annually by a priestly group, consisting of the six so called rain-priests ('Ashiwanni") associated with the world-regions, the two war-chiefs or Bow Chiefs, and Shiwan-akya ("chief old-woman).

learn More here
Here is a famous photo Zuni Warchief
This is the tribes web site
PS if your planing to go out to the Rez let me know and I'll split the cost of gas from my place here in Alb out there... X-mas is coming up and I could use a few more presents to fill in my list



posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 10:50 AM
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Originally posted by B.Morrison
because isn't that (1murder in300yrs) kind of the closest thing to a truely 'peaceful' society on this planet???

I thought it was a desirable thing...y'know?

-B.M


i think so, too!

AWESOME!

the native Americans are some of GOD's favorites, surely




posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 01:42 PM
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reply to post by lpowell0627
 


reply to post by DaddyBare
 


Thanks to lpowell0627 and Daddybare for posting more information about the Zuni. I learned something from you folks! But no I hadn't planned to visit the Zuni in person, but good luck if you decide to do that daddybare.

lpowell0627, the Rhode Island comparison makes more sense, so from your numbers it sounds like if the murder rate for 6000 Zuni was the same as Rhode Island, the Zuni would have a murder about once every 6 years, does that sound about right?

I think the crowding in Rhode Island may be a factor as you suggest.



posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 09:11 PM
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Thankyou everyone for bringing attention to this thread, i'd feared it would fade away before people got a chance to hear the story


thank you also to everyone contributing information about the Zuni's,
that's awesome


The title of the thread was more me saying "that's my favourite point that Robert Anton Wilson made in a talk he gave at a seminar."

On retrospect I can see how that would probably be interpreted as a thread first and foremost about the Zuni's...which is fair enough but not really the whole thing, the Zuni's are an example, there's other aspects to this, the Matrist/Patrist elements for e.g. I mean personally i'd never heard these terms till I saw roberts talk.


By the way I'm circumcised and I wouldn't describe myself as a violent or particularly aggressive person.


I think its important to note that Robert was talking about the extreme ends of the spectrum, there are many cultures that are a mix of patrist/matrist elements, Its hard to think of too many cultures that can be defined strictly as one or the other. So I guess I'm saying he wasn't saying that circumcision ALWAYS causes these behaviours, but that based on the research of another guy, there are a number of 'variables' from culture to culture, that seem to be the root of these behaviours & values.

This is to do (as robert mentions shortly after the point i stopped transcribing...
) with the 'imprint' stage of new life also.


So if you define murder as one Zuni killing another Zuni... yeah I can buy that claim... but if you define murder as one human killing another human with malice then your statement is erroneous...


actually, it's robert anton wilson's statement which i transcribed word for word from a video. (Not my statement-I'm just the messenger)

but thank you for your fantastic & fascinating input, albeit somewhat disappointing information, disappointing only because i was totally unaware of all that info about their wars & murdering outside of their culture. But if I am to have to comment on behalf of Robert, I think yes, he did mean 'within your own' murders...so to speak.


Still it makes for an interesting theory...

i thought so
but hey, even if the Zuni info is erronous, the data itself is quite compelling, and there's always the trobiand islanders to look into as well..


I happen to be Jicarilla Apache

ok to ask your animals? mine - dragonfly possum raven crow, the elk made an appearance but i'm totally confused about whether its hung around or not, and there's a dilemma between 2 (assumed) newcomers, a brown bear & the wind. Apparently the wind was upset i was paying so much attention to the bear....I wonder if its as simple as me being here typing this (hibernating) as opposed to being outdoors.

sorry 2 get sidetracked...


I think your presentation of statistics needs further thought when comparing the number of murders per unit time for a large population versus for a small population.


robert's presentation.....*slaps forehead*...


I don't think or kind OP can help you in your search for more (Real) info..


lol "real" info? This information might be 'erronous' but it IS "real" by my definition, which basically states, the only info that constitutes a 'false' status or 'fake', is disinformation, which was intended as such.

Robert & the people responsible for his data are/were not cointelpro



Perhaps if you had also posted a link or two

I thought personally providing the first internet based transcription of this particular video was a pretty good effort just quietly,
but there is a bit more I can add, so I will.

~


can't find any (legally obtainable) footage of roberts talk, but the above video shows the introduction talk & the video description informs on DVD & where you can buy it.

Disinfo.com (archives)

Disinfo.com (videos)

~

So to futher transcribe/quote from Robert's talk-

"now this patrist/matrist, armoured/unarmoured, anal/oral, whichever way you want to classify these types of societies, I think it basically goes back to what I wrote about in Prometheas Rising, right after birth there's a period of "(mumbles word) imprint vulnerability" which Konrad Lorenz won the nobel peace prize for his writings on 'imprint vulnerability' there are periods of imprint vulnerability throughout life, theres especially sensitive ones right after birth.

Now you're either going to imprint human beings-
(aside 2 explain that his terminology is borrowed from timothy leary)
As "warm fuzzies" - loving, supporting, nurturing critters, that you can trust and love and who love you....
or you're gonna imprint them as "cold pricklies" - hostile, viscous, dangerous characters that you want to have as little to do with as possible.

Obviously the maximum cold prickly means a totally autistic child or else one that grows up to be a criminal sociopath...

Those who are the warm fuzzy imprint are the ones that grow up to be friendly, generous, outgoing, full of humour, nice people in general, the kind of people you wish all your neighbours were.

to quote Leary again:
The essence of evolutionary intelligence is to find the proper habitat"

~

To add a personal thought,
the Taliban suppress joy & laughter, and a life without a reason to smile changes your values, the Afghani civilians however, still smile, and don't give up on life so easily.

~

the statistics & data robert used came from-
Demayo - Saharaja (book - could not find, prob banned)

Robert Anton Wilson - Ishtar Rising

Gordon Rattray Taylor - Sex in history

and the relevant works of Konrad Lorenz.

Kind regards,
-B.Morrison

[edit on 10/12/09 by B.Morrison]



posted on Dec, 11 2009 @ 08:00 AM
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reply to post by B.Morrison
 


I have to apologize if I was a bit snippy...
See we Natives tend to attract people like Robert who come hoping we have all the answers to all life's little mysteries... we don't, really we just come at the problem from a different angle a different perspective...

Some of these folks come with preconceived notions about who we are and what we hold sacred... but that is something that must be lived not studied...

Right now most Native people are pretty defencive when it comes to non tribal members making statements like Mister Roberts We just had that thing in AZ where a number of people were killed in that new age Sweat lodge... that man took our traditions without bothering to learn what they really are... Not something one drives a profit from, that's for sure...

When this guy makes that kind of generalized statement about the Zuni well it sends up a lot of warning flags...

Now here's the truth if you really want to know us, cool, come to New Mexico, wait until spring, its pretty cold here right now... come visit our Rez sit in on a drumming, maybe attend a blessing way, if you come in April we hold the PowWow in Albuquerque and we have the best dancers in the work show up for that! What I'm saying is don't take someones word, second hand... Not when your always welcome to come learn for yourself... see were not so different you and I...
Just leave your video cam at home... were not a freak show ya know... Frist round of fry bread is on me K? After that your buying



posted on Dec, 11 2009 @ 09:23 AM
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Originally posted by DaddyBare
reply to post by B.Morrison
 

I have to apologize if I was a bit snippy...


not at all
just glad to have sparked your interest with this thread




See we Natives tend to attract people like Robert who come hoping we have all the answers to all life's little mysteries... we don't, really we just come at the problem from a different angle a different perspective...


fair call, I tend to think the perspective my friends & I share is similar to that of the more peaceful tribal communities, in a way, we're a tribe ourselves, perhaps its more a case of like mindedness across people of all backgrounds, then a uniquely 'native tribal community' thing? maybe its just that us "descendants of bastard invaders rotting in the afterlife" (my words & my sentiments) have fewer of these 'like minded's' to offer the world. But these are exciting times, and I'm noticing the hippy mentality (for lack of a better label) is spreading


I wonder tho if Robert does think the 'natives' have all the answers, see I don't think he does. He's first and foremost a philosopher, simply working with the data he had, to philosophise with. If you wish to point fingers, I would direct them firmly at the people responsible for the data Robert used in his presentation.

see data & statistics by their very nature are cold & devoid of life, Roberts philosophising gives the information some life & personality, humanises it. data alone is not such an accurate reflection of reality, interpretation by someone experiencing that reality; is required.



Some of these folks come with preconceived notions about who we are and what we hold sacred... but that is something that must be lived not studied...
I'm sure their are many people who fit that description, however I think a man of 'books' and a man of 'life experience' are both equally equipped to understand the same lessons in life, but with polar opposite methods. I also think Robert probably isn't one of these 'folks'.

Im biased tho because I'm fond of the guy & his jovial demeanour.



Right now most Native people are pretty defencive when it comes to non tribal members making statements like Mister Roberts We just had that thing in AZ where a number of people were killed in that new age Sweat lodge... that man took our traditions without bothering to learn what they really are... Not something one drives a profit from, that's for sure...


Thats a terribly unfortunate thing to have happened. I'm sorry for your people & their culture, sweat lodges obviously can be dangerous for the inexperienced at the best of times (fair call?) I'm thinking of how Billy Connelly (the comedian) looked after each break when he stepped out of the 'thing' (sorry i don't know, tent?) he looked like he was going to collapse and die basically, he'd never done anything like it before, and is quite old these days.



When this guy makes that kind of generalized statement about the Zuni well it sends up a lot of warning flags...
please bear in mind he was giving a talk in a new york theatre to a fairly shallow bunch who were thinking probably more about getting their moneys worth than much else, I haven't read his books, but I assume he is a bit more even handed when he has the time to revise his words


However, I agree with you also, he does make some pretty big generalisations, but again, he bases what he says on the data provided by the people I mentioned (and gave links for) in above post, I wish you had realised exactly who was responsible for the points of view you didn't appreciate, before targeting R.A.Wilson...



Now here's the truth

enlighten me



if you really want to know us,

us as in the Zuni? sure, but I should probably be focusing on knowing myself before I try to understand anyone else...



cool, come to New Mexico, wait until spring, its pretty cold here right now... come visit our Rez sit in on a drumming, maybe attend a blessing way, if you come in April we hold the PowWow in Albuquerque and we have the best dancers in the work show up for that!


that sounds awesome & I'd definitely be up for it if I had the money for a 'half way across the world' plane flight, I live for music so I dare say once I was handed an instrument, i'd fit right in
words don't always do the soul justice...



What I'm saying is don't take someone's word, second hand...


great point, couldn't agree more, but don't dismiss it %100 either, find the middle way, some things deserve your consideration




Not when your always welcome to come learn for yourself... see were not so different you and I...
Just leave your video cam at home... were not a freak show ya know... Frist round of fry bread is on me K? After that your buying


If I'm invited to your home, I'm not going to film you in some kind of perverse judgemental 'zoo excursion'....I mean WTF!!

look man, I totally appreciate what you're saying and its obvious you've been burnt in the past by the kind of people you expect this behaviour from & all I can say is that I wish you had been given the opportunity to say these things to THOSE people that burnt you, because Robert is not them, niether am I, and you DO make good points, so it's just a shame your message isn't getting to the people who its actually directed at instead of you carrying that energy around with you until you happen to read a thread at ATS which triggers this passionate outcry that was just waiting for an outlet....

Thats just my 2 cent for what its worth. I can't say why you do what you do, only you know that


and I have to 'buy' bread in your tribe? can't I just help you lot make it? anything can be fun with good company.


Much love for 'you & yours' my friend,
-B.M

P.S) by the way, spirit/animal guides, yes? no? or private?

[edit on 11/12/09 by B.Morrison]



posted on Dec, 11 2009 @ 09:38 AM
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To re-iterate, discussion regarding the Zuni tribe is welcome and encouraged, but I also seek discussion regarding matrist/patrist theory, and the 'variables' theory.


-B.M



posted on Dec, 11 2009 @ 09:48 AM
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Originally posted by queenannie38
the native Americans are some of GOD's favorites, surely


I'm sorry but I really don't dig your comment. I thought I did, but on retrospect no, not at all.

I believe 'god' is the consciousness we all share whilst simultaneously locked into an illusion of perceiving ourselves as separate beings.

my point of view is completely personal and denomination free, I follow no religions.

In this view of mine, where god is a big bowl of 'consciousness soup' there are no favourites.

soup can't have favourites.

A god with favourites is no god at all.

Every point of view is a valid aspect of "gods" perspective, even Hitler's.
I know that might seem ridiculous, but just think about it.

my turn to make some assumptions now...
surely you are of a Christian faith?

I mean you did feel the need didn't you...

GOD! GOD EVERYONE! LOOK I'M TALKING ABOUT GOD!!!!
(god requires capitol letters?)

sorry for picking on you....

I just don't like the concept of god you presented.

it annoys me.

obviously


still gave you a star for appreciating how wonderful a concept 1 murder in 300 years really is....I'm not all that bad....just don't sit me in the same room as Christians....


-B.Morrison

[edit on 11/12/09 by B.Morrison]

[edit on 11/12/09 by B.Morrison]



posted on Dec, 11 2009 @ 10:19 AM
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Originally posted by Takka

By the way I'm circumcised and I wouldn't describe myself as a violent or particularly aggressive person .
After all its just a flap of skin
[edit on 10-12-2009 by Takka]


I'm not saying that I subscribe to the "circumcision makes people violent" theory but I'd like to point out that today it may just be a simple medical procedure, but think of what it was like 1000 years ago, with rusty unsanitary tools and no anesthetic. It's a bit different, no?



posted on Dec, 11 2009 @ 11:38 AM
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reply to post by B.Morrison
 


Actually there is a scientifically feasible explanation to male circumcision. To protect from infection under the foreskin. Foreskin increases infection risk.



posted on Dec, 11 2009 @ 08:46 PM
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Originally posted by DaMod
reply to post by B.Morrison
 


Actually there is a scientifically feasible explanation to male circumcision. To protect from infection under the foreskin. Foreskin increases infection risk.


Theres a rather simple preventative for that, that doesnt involve lopping off bits of sensitive skin...

its called Soap and Water.


Interesting ideas OP, although personally I dont think its really much of an issue. While im 'o natural' , as a permmy baby I was isolated in a incubator and daily given blood tests, which basically involved them using a razor to nick my heels, which supposedly really made me squeal. While not the same as circumcision its just another very early traumatic experience in the same vein for a baby. Temperament wise im shy but not unfriendly, not to fond of unsolicited contact and fairly pacifistic.

My older brothers on the other hand all where circumcised (something after witnessing made my mum decide not to for me and my younger brother). They also are mostly nonaggressive and caring people.

Could this be due to our up bringings, most likely... our family is/was also fairly religous.

So to me, I dont think being in a culture with Matrist/Patrist elements creates alot of the troubles we face, such things may weigh issues in certain directons, but overall I think its a minor influence, with far more larger issues being the real culprits for our societies ills.

But good points to ponder on all the same.

Hmm had a thought... did the romans practice it?, since in terms of equality they where very male dominated and aggressive.

[edit on 11-12-2009 by BigfootNZ]



posted on Dec, 11 2009 @ 09:03 PM
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Originally posted by B.Morrison
To re-iterate, discussion regarding the Zuni tribe is welcome and encouraged, but I also seek discussion regarding matrist/patrist theory, and the 'variables' theory.


-B.M


Hitler condemned those who were circumcised . . .

Japan and Russia have low circumcision rates, as does China.

Blows that theory up a bit there.



posted on Dec, 11 2009 @ 09:07 PM
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reply to post by BigfootNZ
 


I will reply with a quote


In the USA there are 12,000 new cases and 4,000 deaths from cervical cancer each year [106]. Treatment of each case costs $20,000 to $40,000 (American Cancer Society figures). This works out at a total of $24 to $48 million. Then there is the social cost and devastation to individuals and families.

A number of studies have documented higher rates of cervical cancer in women who have had one or more male sexual partners who were uncircumcised. Whereas the earlier studies were somewhat equivocal the evidence from a recent large international study published in the New England Journal of Medicine, to be discussed later, now provides overwhelming evidence of the link between lack of male circumcision and cervical cancer in the female sexual partner.

A famous example relevant to this disease is Eva Peron, who died of cervical cancer at age 33 [514]. She started out as a street waif who began having multiple sexual partners at an early age, working her way up the military command in Argentina, where virtually all men are uncircumcised. Cervical cancer is common in prostitutes, but rare in nuns (who take a vow of celibacy) [514].

The early studies had to be looked at critically to see to what extent cultural and other influences might be contributing within groups that have different circumcision practices. Of interest in studies conducted in India and Pakistan, premarital sex is uncommon in the various religious groups in these and surrounding countries, where in general Muslims are circumcised and Hindus are not.

In a study of 5000 cervical and 300 penile cancer cases in Madras between 1982 and 1990 the incidence was low amongst Muslim women, when compared with Hindu and Christian, and was not seen at all in Muslim men [193]. In a case-control study of 1107 Indian women with cervical cancer, sex with uncircumcised men or those circumcised after the age of 1 year was reported in 1993 to be associated with a 4-fold higher risk of cervical cancer [6].

This figure was, moreover, obtained after controlling for factors such as age, age of first intercourse, and education. Another study published in 1993 concerning various types of cancer in the Valley of Kashmir concluded that universal male circumcision in the majority community was responsible for the low rate of cervical cancer compared with the rest of India [144].

In Israel, a 1994 report of 4 groups of women aged 17-60 found that Moshav residents with no gynaecological complaints had no HPV 16/18 and healthy Kibbutz residents had a 1.8% incidence [262]. Amongst those who had a gynaecological complaint HPV 16/18 was found in 9% of Jewish and 12% of non-Jewish women. Thus the causative agent (high-risk HPV) can be found in Jewish women, where the lifestyle and contact with non-Jewish men (some of whom may be uncircumcised) would likely have been higher in the Kibbutz dwellers. The source of this (circumcised vs. uncircumcised partners) was not explored.

A study in Denmark that found 5-fold lower HPV in circumcised men concluded that ‘the female partners of circumcised men are less exposed to cervical cancer because these men are less likely to be infected with HPV’ [555].

So-called 'high-risk' HPV types 16, 18 and some rarer forms are responsible for virtually every case of cervical cancer [439, 596, 597]. These same high-risk HPVs also cause penile intra-epithelial neoplasia (PIN), which is the precursor to penile cancer and is the male equivalent of cervical intra-epithelial neoplasia (CIN), which is the precursor to cervical cancer. (These days ‘CIN’ is more often referred to as ‘squamous intra-epithelial lesion’ – SIL – which can be of high or low grade, thus ‘HSIL’ or ‘LSIL’.) In a study published in the New England Journal of Medicine in 1987 it was found that women with cervical cancer were more likely to have partners with PIN [62].

A study in 1994 found that in women with CIN, PIN was present in the male partner in 93% of cases [46]. This is consistent with the known sexual transmission of this cancer-causing virus. The abnormality (CIN / SIL) may progress to cancer or, more often, it will go away. Thus co-factors are suspected. Interestingly, smegma (the film of bacteria, secretions and other material under the foreskin), obtained from human and horse was shown to be capable of producing cervical cancer in mice in one study [443], but not in another [460]. Differences in exposure time in each study could have contributed to this difference.

In 2002, a large, well-designed multinational study by the International Agency for Research on Cancer published in the New England Journal of Medicine has irrefutably implicated the foreskin in cervical cancer [101]. This involved 1913 couples in 5 global locations in Europe, Asia and South America. Penile HPV was found in 20% of uncircumcised, but only 5% of circumcised men (odds ratio = 0.37). The women were more 5.6 times more likely to have cervical cancer if their partner was uncircumcised. This was seen in monogamous women whose male partner had had 6 or more sexual partners (adjusted odds ratio = 0.42), but circumcision was also protective in women whose partner had an intermediate sexual behavior risk index (odds ratio = 0.50).

Penile HPV infection was associated with a 4-fold increase in the risk of cervical HPV infection in the female partner, and cervical HPV infection was associated with a 77-fold increase in the risk of cervical cancer. In an accompanying editorial it was suggested that "reduction in risk among female partners of circumcised as compared with uncircumcised men may well be more substantial than reported" in this study [1].

It might be expected that skin-to-skin contact that does not extend to sexual intercourse with the uncircumcised penis could infect the woman. Indeed, in this study condom use provided only a slight protective effect – the difference in odds ratio between condom users (0.83) was actually not significantly different from non-users (0.67) [101].

Genital HPV types are highly infectious and can infect skin throughout the genital region. Interestingly, the uncircumcised men washed their genitals more often after intercourse, but the circumcised men had better penile hygiene, when examined by a physician. So why are uncircumcised men much more highly infected? One suggested reason was that the more delicate, easily-infected, mucosal lining of their foreskin is pulled back during intercourse, and so is wholly exposed to vaginal secretions of an infected woman, so infecting them, and increasing risk of infection to any future woman the uncircumcised man has sex with.

UNAIDS data from 117 developing countries show a cervical cancer incidence of 35 per 100,000 women per year in 51 countries with a low (80%) circumcision prevalence (P



posted on Dec, 11 2009 @ 09:12 PM
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When I was having a son and debating circumcision, I talked to a lot of people. And while most didn't have problems, I did hear several horror stories of infecations as adults, and having had to have adult male circumcision. And that is was truley not a pleasant experience.



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