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The phenomenon of Jews spitting on Christians and their symbols
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Hi Mmichael—
As I mentioned in an earlier post, all new information tends to be a little scary for people who think they understand the world in which they live (and their own role in it !) , and you (and others on this thread) seem to echo that fear—which is quite natural—one just has to train oneself (again and again !) to receive new information and not panic—or try and dismiss the researcher as ‘lunatic fringe’ just because what he discovers is not known or understood by you.
Think of all the scientific discoveries and ‘new revolutionary ideas’ since the time of say, Roger Bacon that went against the flat-earth-surrounded by a solid dome-Req'iak heaven with earth at the center of Creation following the Weltanschauung of the 'bible' which held sway for so long (‘the world is spherical ? Rubbish !’ even though the Greeks knew it 2,000 years before…) i.e. ideas that were 'true' but that were dismissed as 'fringe lunacy' by those with the publishing power…that is, before they GRADUALLY became mainstream ideas accepted as ‘fact’ or ‘reality’.
But the Internet is here now, so that GRADUALLY is becoming RAPIDLY.
Having said that, I would be the first to agree that Cambridge University Professor Solomon Schechter’s interpretation of many of his findings at the Cairo Geniza of Synagogue Ben-Ezra (now restored) are of course now hopelessly out-dated (he managed to come across some fairly well preserved late mediaeval Karite ‘clean copies’ of actual Dead Sea scroll material
(e.g. the so-called Damascus Document /CD = ‘The Rule for the Yahad for All the Camps of Yisro’el in the Last Days’) in 1896/7 at the Cairo Geniza 50 years before there were any Dead Sea Scrolls found of the same text family inside rock caves re-discovered by Bedouin at Qumran, c. Nov 1946) but of course at the time, he had absolutely no idea where these originated: he titled the sheets simply ‘a Zadokite Document’
i.e. Sadducean (the Dead Sea Scroll Covenanters called themselves ‘sons of Zadok’ i.e. Zaddukkim although they believed in the resurrection, in the prophets as ‘defiling the hands’ as well as in Angels-Devils and in an Apocalyptic End of Days Judgment which the ‘other’ Tzaddukkim at Jerusalem did not—hence the breakaway movement of the Essenoid Dead Sea Scroll group.
But the HARD material ('phyiscal') evidence Schechter came across (some of them original letters from Khazarian ‘Jewish’ King ‘Joseph’ (his conversion name) at Kiev from the year AD 791 – 805 ) is the part that is ‘highly explosive’ in this case, vis a vis the origin of Khazarian (Converted Turko-Ukranians = Ashkenazi) Judaeism,
It is THIS kind of material evidence such as what Schechter found that is the part that counts---not Schechter’s guess work (or any other scholar's hypotehses) at the time of his discovery.
And as a rabinnic scholar at Cambridge, Schechter certainly could read the documents and knew how explosively dangerous this new nformation was for world Jewry who was undergoing a major overhaul at the time (if you recall Zionism was on the rise in 1897, the same year that the book entitled Der Judenstadt ( ‘The Jews’ State’ ) was published by Herzl). At any rate, Professor Schechter was for his time, a mainstream (not really considered ‘fringe’) respected ‘Talmudic scholar’ at Cambridge University, although styling himself a ‘conservative’ Jew, he was thought to lean a little too much towards a laxer form of Reform Judaeism to please the more right wing orthodox cliques of the time.
Professor Schechter ordered his staff NOT to publish FOR FIFTY YEARS the Khazarian Joseph letters from Kiev after long debates with his colleagues on various sides of the Judaeisms being practiced at the time – as being dangerous to Zionism. This echoes what the Ecole Biblique thought about the Dead Sea Scroll material when they took 'full control' of the evidence in Caves 1-11 after November 1946--they did NOT want this information published without their editorial staff in charge of what was to be in the public doman (='anything that might impinge upon orthodox ideas pertaining to Jesus will be kept back')
Most of the Cairo Genizah contents at Cambridge University to this day REMAINS UNPUBLISHED – despite some loud voices determined lately to get this information out –the state of affairs is beginning to sound like yet another ‘Dead Sea Scroll Type Conspiracy of non-publication’ (of sorts) to keep the masses of believers firmly in the dark about their belief-origins when new info/evidence is kept back by the powers that be – i.e. the Status Quo-ers within the Ecole Biblique e.g. until the late 1970s.
But even the ‘long hidden’ Dead Sea Scroll material is now fairly open to a public mostly without the requisite training to read them (fragments from Cave 4 have been coming out in English translations since the 1990s after 40+years of being ‘sequestered’) so I have good hopes that the Khazarian papers will be released over the next decade or two to a world who is basically in the dark about this whole subject (and Rabbinic scholars making hay trying to de-bunk the evidence in the meantime, to suit their own agendas of course !)
But there are movements now to get this information out, and in these days of the Internet and hungrier than ever publishing houses (in competition with the Net) somebody will find a way to disseminate the facts of the matter, so we will see some interesting developments over the next 15 years on this whole discussion.
"Although all of the Khazars are now of the Jewish faith, they have been Judaized only very recently." - Ibn al-Faqih, a 10th century author
As I mentioned in an earlier post, all new information tends to be a little scary for people who think they understand the world in which they live (and their own role in it !) , and you (and others on this thread) seem to echo that fear—which is quite natural—one just has to train oneself (again and again !) to receive new information and not panic—or try and dismiss the researcher as ‘lunatic fringe’ just because what he discovers is not known or understood by you.
Think of all the scientific discoveries and ‘new revolutionary ideas’ since the time of say, Roger Bacon that went against the flat-earth-surrounded by a solid dome-Req'iak heaven with earth at the center of Creation following the Weltanschauung of the 'bible' which held sway for so long (‘the world is spherical ? Rubbish !’ even though the Greeks knew it 2,000 years before…) i.e. ideas that were 'true' but that were dismissed as 'fringe lunacy' by those with the publishing power…that is, before they GRADUALLY became mainstream ideas accepted as ‘fact’ or ‘reality’.
But the Internet is here now, so that GRADUALLY is becoming RAPIDLY.
Having said that, I would be the first to agree that Cambridge University Professor Solomon Schechter’s interpretation of many of his findings at the Cairo Geniza of Synagogue Ben-Ezra (now restored) are of course now hopelessly out-dated (he managed to come across some fairly well preserved late mediaeval Karite ‘clean copies’ of actual Dead Sea scroll material
(e.g. the so-called Damascus Document /CD = ‘The Rule for the Yahad for All the Camps of Yisro’el in the Last Days’) in 1896/7 at the Cairo Geniza 50 years before there were any Dead Sea Scrolls found of the same text family inside rock caves re-discovered by Bedouin at Qumran, c. Nov 1946) but of course at the time, he had absolutely no idea where these originated: he titled the sheets simply ‘a Zadokite Document’
i.e. Sadducean (the Dead Sea Scroll Covenanters called themselves ‘sons of Zadok’ i.e. Zaddukkim although they believed in the resurrection, in the prophets as ‘defiling the hands’ as well as in Angels-Devils and in an Apocalyptic End of Days Judgment which the ‘other’ Tzaddukkim at Jerusalem did not—hence the breakaway movement of the Essenoid Dead Sea Scroll group.
But the HARD material ('phyiscal') evidence Schechter came across (some of them original letters from Khazarian ‘Jewish’ King ‘Joseph’ (his conversion name) at Kiev from the year AD 791 – 805 ) is the part that is ‘highly explosive’ in this case, vis a vis the origin of Khazarian (Converted Turko-Ukranians = Ashkenazi) Judaeism,
It is THIS kind of material evidence such as what Schechter found that is the part that counts---not Schechter’s guess work (or any other scholar's hypotehses) at the time of his discovery.
And as a rabinnic scholar at Cambridge, Schechter certainly could read the documents and knew how explosively dangerous this new nformation was for world Jewry who was undergoing a major overhaul at the time (if you recall Zionism was on the rise in 1897, the same year that the book entitled Der Judenstadt ( ‘The Jews’ State’ ) was published by Herzl). At any rate, Professor Schechter was for his time, a mainstream (not really considered ‘fringe’) respected ‘Talmudic scholar’ at Cambridge University, although styling himself a ‘conservative’ Jew, he was thought to lean a little too much towards a laxer form of Reform Judaeism to please the more right wing orthodox cliques of the time.
Professor Schechter ordered his staff NOT to publish FOR FIFTY YEARS the Khazarian Joseph letters from Kiev after long debates with his colleagues on various sides of the Judaeisms being practiced at the time – as being dangerous to Zionism. This echoes what the Ecole Biblique thought about the Dead Sea Scroll material when they took 'full control' of the evidence in Caves 1-11 after November 1946--they did NOT want this information published without their editorial staff in charge of what was to be in the public doman (='anything that might impinge upon orthodox ideas pertaining to Jesus will be kept back')
Most of the Cairo Genizah contents at Cambridge University to this day REMAINS UNPUBLISHED – despite some loud voices determined lately to get this information out –the state of affairs is beginning to sound like yet another ‘Dead Sea Scroll Type Conspiracy of non-publication’ (of sorts) to keep the masses of believers firmly in the dark about their belief-origins when new info/evidence is kept back by the powers that be – i.e. the Status Quo-ers within the Ecole Biblique e.g. until the late 1970s.
But even the ‘long hidden’ Dead Sea Scroll material is now fairly open to a public mostly without the requisite training to read them (fragments from Cave 4 have been coming out in English translations since the 1990s after 40+years of being ‘sequestered’) so I have good hopes that the Khazarian papers will be released over the next decade or two to a world who is basically in the dark about this whole subject (and Rabbinic scholars making hay trying to de-bunk the evidence in the meantime, to suit their own agendas of course !)
But there are movements now to get this information out, and in these days of the Internet and hungrier than ever publishing houses (in competition with the Net) somebody will find a way to disseminate the facts of the matter, so we will see some interesting developments over the next 15 years on this whole discussion.
"Although all of the Khazars are now of the Jewish faith, they have been Judaized only very recently." - Ibn al-Faqih, a 10th century author
Originally posted by Sigismundus
Hi Mmichael—
Think of all the scientific discoveries and ‘new revolutionary ideas’ since the time of say, Roger Bacon that went against the flat-earth-surrounded by a solid dome-Req'iak heaven with earth at the center of Creation following the Weltanschauung of the 'bible' which held sway for so long (‘the world is spherical ? Rubbish !’ even though the Greeks knew it 2,000 years before…) i.e. ideas that were 'true' but that were dismissed as 'fringe lunacy' by those with the publishing power…that is, before they GRADUALLY became mainstream ideas accepted as ‘fact’ or ‘reality’.
Having said that, I would be the first to agree that Cambridge University Professor Solomon Schechter’s interpretation of many of his findings at the Cairo Geniza of Synagogue Ben-Ezra (now restored) are of course now hopelessly out-dated (he managed to come across some fairly well preserved late mediaeval Karite ‘clean copies’ of actual Dead Sea scroll material
(e.g. the so-called Damascus Document /CD = ‘The Rule for the Yahad for All the Camps of Yisro’el in the Last Days’) in 1896/7 at the Cairo Geniza 50 years before there were any Dead Sea Scrolls found of the same text family inside rock caves re-discovered by Bedouin at Qumran, c. Nov 1946) but of course at the time, he had absolutely no idea where these originated: he titled the sheets simply ‘a Zadokite Document’
i.e. Sadducean (the Dead Sea Scroll Covenanters called themselves ‘sons of Zadok’ i.e. Zaddukkim although they believed in the resurrection, in the prophets as ‘defiling the hands’ as well as in Angels-Devils and in an Apocalyptic End of Days Judgment which the ‘other’ Tzaddukkim at Jerusalem did not—hence the breakaway movement of the Essenoid Dead Sea Scroll group.
But the HARD material ('phyiscal') evidence Schechter came across (some of them original letters from Khazarian ‘Jewish’ King ‘Joseph’ (his conversion name) at Kiev from the year AD 791 – 805 ) is the part that is ‘highly explosive’ in this case, vis a vis the origin of Khazarian (Converted Turko-Ukranians = Ashkenazi) Judaeism,
It is THIS kind of material evidence such as what Schechter found that is the part that counts---not Schechter’s guess work (or any other scholar's hypotehses) at the time of his discovery.
And as a rabinnic scholar at Cambridge, Schechter certainly could read the documents and knew how explosively dangerous this new nformation was for world Jewry who was undergoing a major overhaul at the time (if you recall Zionism was on the rise in 1897,
Professor Schechter ordered his staff NOT to publish FOR FIFTY YEARS the Khazarian Joseph letters from Kiev after long debates with his colleagues on various sides of the Judaeisms being practiced at the time – as being dangerous to Zionism. This echoes what the Ecole Biblique thought about the Dead Sea Scroll material when they took 'full control' of the evidence in Caves 1-11 after November 1946--they did NOT want this information published without their editorial staff in charge of what was to be in the public doman (='anything that might impinge upon orthodox ideas pertaining to Jesus will be kept back')
But even the ‘long hidden’ Dead Sea Scroll material is now fairly open to a public mostly without the requisite training to read them
But there are movements now to get this information out, and in these days of the Internet and hungrier than ever publishing houses (in competition with the Net) somebody will find a way to disseminate the facts of the matter, so we will see some interesting developments over the next 15 years on this whole discussion.
"Although all of the Khazars are now of the Jewish faith, they have been Judaized only very recently." - Ibn al-Faqih, a 10th century author
Hi Sigismundus,
I enjoy your scholarship immensely. But you must learn there is such a thing as context and perspective in any argued case.
Your references go back hundreds even thousands of years. A lot of other research and knowledge has come to light subsequently that frames previous thinking in a very different light.
I don't quite know how to put this to you politely. Many things supposed scholars believed in the past turn out to be dead wrong. Wiser researchers with broader knowledge now recognize many things accepted in the past were, are, and always will be bunk.
Isolating and listing selected factoids and non-representative information can be very deceptive. One can produce a paper showing how there are hundreds of thousands of car accidents and terrible crashes every year. How millions have died due to injuries caused by car collisions.
One can get the impression automobiles are the most dangerous creation in all history killing more than wars. But the truth is billions travel by car, lives are also saved, 99% of their journeys are safe.
Similarly, even sincere research and documentation can be seriously flawed, mistaken, or fails to incorporate into the full body of knowledge available in the present.
We know more than we did before. We go on our best knowledge not dredge up things that conform to our pet theories. You want to make Jews look dishonest and deceptive by combing through the debris of ancient thinking to prove your case. But it doesn't stick, I'm afraid.
So I'm afraid I'm going to dismiss the interpretations and findings of Professor Solomon Schechter at Harvard in the 19th Century, 10th century author Ibn al-Faqih, and other fine gentlemen of the past.
I recommend reading up on the findings and historical interpretations currently being made by people who know what they are talking about and provide proper documentation, independent verification from multiple sources, credible citations, etc.
Mike
[edit on 14-12-2009 by mmiichael]
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