Cops Taze Unarmed Naked Man to Death for "Walking Toward Them'

reply to post by Kr0n0s


I agree dude. I do. They've become reliant on not having to use them.

By the way, when I went through depot, the taser was described as "non lethal". We all got tased, to feel the effects. Low and behold no one died.

I'm not saying people should be tased for the heck of it. There is A LOT of training involved in the dispatch of any force. Any of which has the potential to kill, if applied improperly.

I didn't mean to overlook your posts.
There just seems to be a lot of "cop hating" in other posts. People are still neglecting to see the good that comes from law enforcement.

But that is their choice. I like to deny ignorance, as much as the next guy. I have yet to employ the "ignore" button. But for some of the "haters" here, I'm pretty tempted. haha..

Those who want negativity here you go:

I'm sure, given if we were given ALL of the info on this subject perhaps a different solution would have been utilized by different officers had they been there.
Could there have been alternatives, for sure. Especially if we get a couple hours in our warm houses to think about it. Not a couple of situational seconds.

Mindset:

Taser use is ridiculous in some situations. I have made my own posts about how sickening it can be.
But sometimes, they have to be deployed. Very sadly, sometimes people can die from it too.

Need some advice on how to do your job?

Ok, try this:

1. Patience.

Don't expect every situation to be resolved in five minutes. Take the time to discover what is really going on; not every situation involves split-second decisions. If it takes an hour or eight, how does the time saved equate to the loss of a life?

2. Acquire and maintain verbal skills.

No, this doesn't mean practicing shouting down citizens, or using your voice to intimidate. It means learning how to communicate effectively without resorting to verbal violence. It implies that you learn to listen, too.

3. Learn to balance.

Just because you can imagine bad things happening doesn't mean they are or will. Balance the risks vs the damage, not just to you but to the person you are confronting. A misdemeanor doesn't justify an impromptu death sentence.

4. Get frequent counseling.

If the job is so stressful the stress is used to as an excuse for killing, why aren't you dealing with it professionally? Too many cops self-medicate with adrenalin and random violence to relieve their stress. At one point (don't know if it is still policy) japanese cops were required to spend time (paid) doing origami, flower arranging, bonsai, and other activities designed to relieve stress, calm them down, and give them an appreciation for beauty and balance. It wouldn't hurt here.

Originally posted by moniker


Are you serious? haha. So by your complaining about what tools are offered to use, they should have sat down and sang him a lullaby until his meds kick in?.

Yes.

That would have been "better" (in the ordinary sense of the word) than killing him, don't you think?

What do you think is so funny about that?

I don't think the situation is funny at all. It is your lack of understanding and ignorance to what I'm saying, that I find funny.

I don't disagree. I think it would have been absolutely better to not kill him.

Their INTENT was to end the situation without killing him. Some police academy's (if that is what they are called in the states) are probably still teaching that tasers are NON LETHAL

So it does fall to training.



[edit on 7-12-2009 by Demoncreeper]

Originally posted by apacheman
Need some advice on how to do your job?

Ok, try this:

1. Patience.

Don't expect every situation to be resolved in five minutes. Take the time to discover what is really going on; not every situation involves split-second decisions. If it takes an hour or eight, how does the time saved equate to the loss of a life?

2. Acquire and maintain verbal skills.

No, this doesn't mean practicing shouting down citizens, or using your voice to intimidate. It means learning how to communicate effectively without resorting to verbal violence. It implies that you learn to listen, too.

3. Learn to balance.

Just because you can imagine bad things happening doesn't mean they are or will. Balance the risks vs the damage, not just to you but to the person you are confronting. A misdemeanor doesn't justify an impromptu death sentence.

4. Get frequent counseling.

If the job is so stressful the stress is used to as an excuse for killing, why aren't you dealing with it professionally? Too many cops self-medicate with adrenalin and random violence to relieve their stress. At one point (don't know if it is still policy) japanese cops were required to spend time (paid) doing origami, flower arranging, bonsai, and other activities designed to relieve stress, calm them down, and give them an appreciation for beauty and balance. It wouldn't hurt here.

Is this directed at me? Because until you are aware of what training officers ACTUALLY receive, it is just fluff.

Go on a few ride alongs. Because
#1 Applied patience happens WAY more than you think
#2 is used more than you know
#3 Its not imagining bad things happening, it is because bad things HAVE happened in any situation. Including smaller offences.
#4 Counseling is mandatory after major events.

Learn facts. Then distort them.

[edit on 7-12-2009 by Demoncreeper]

reply to post by Demoncreeper

We all got tased, to feel the effects. Low and behold no one died.

If your a cop then you must be ignorant to situation awareness?... Low and behold I would bet you guys where high fiving and laughing before and after you got the Taser.....

NOW TRY THIS.... I BET IT COULD KILL YOU.... Get into a situation that gets your adrenaline flowing, that fight or flight mode that stimulates the heart-rate, dilates your blood vessels and your air passages etc.... NOW TRY THE TASER....

Really you guys need stop using that excuse "We all got tased, to feel the effects. Low and behold no one died." This is a devious lie, your not in a situation to feel the real effects....


[edit on 7-12-2009 by imitator]

reply to post by Demoncreeper


Yea, i understand what youre saying about the "hating" going on in this site and I dont agree with most of it either but you have to admit, some of it is very justified.
I spent a lot of time with my Dad and his cop buddies when I was a teen and yes they are people too. I had a lot of fun with these guys, fishing trips, fishing tournys, hunting, playing weekly poker games and drinking beer with them.
However, even then, the Mid 80's, these guys were worried about the "new" generation of cops that were beginning to come, who they described as compulsive weight lifting, steroid injecting a holes with attitudes and those were some of the nicer things theyd say lol.

I still say that this current generations issues arise from poor parenting and being labeled with some type of ADD type issues and taking medication since 3rd grade.
They probably had no respect for their parents and in turn, have no respect for others, especially those that they see as inferior to them, like civilians.

I believe this, in addition to the training/conditioning they receive has turned out the product that patrols our streets today.
You can see it in some of the cop shows (reality type) and during live footage of arrests.
A person thats being arrested for something minor, a misdemeanor or a non-violent charge is treated the same way they treat a person suspected of murder, armed robbery or any other violent offender.
They take them down the same way, they slam them to the asphalt, thrust their knees into their back or the back of the neck and in some cases knock them around a bit, even after their cuffed.

Used to, even as theyre arresting a felon, for the most part, they would treat them with a modicum of respect.

Im not saying theyre all like that but it does seem to be becoming the norm.
Ive been pulled over a few times in the past few years and for the most part, theyve all been pretty cool.

Originally posted by DeathTribble
reply to post by spec_ops_wannabe

 

That poor man's wife. She will spend the rest of her days thinking that if she had only not called the cops, her husband would still be alive.

You just hit the nail on the head. I will seriously rethink calling the cops if I'm in a similar situation.

I agree with others, tazers are meant to be used in place of a gun because it's a less lethal alternative. If it's not a situation you would draw your gun in, it's not a situation to draw your tazer in.

And to all those saying he wasn't following orders so he deserved it, the article says they told him to get down on the ground just once (already treating him like a criminal and not someone who is in need of help) before he took another step and the shot him with the tazer.

Then they shot him a second time because he still wouldn't follow orders. I'm sorry but being that the man was 1)having a mental episode 2) being electrocuted he probably wasn't even coherent at the moment and therefore not able to "follow orders".

I've seen the videos where a cop tazes someone and then proceeds to shout orders at the person while their twitching and jittering. It's insane! How can anyone expect a person being electrocuted to be coherent?

I'm going to repeat what Death Tribble said...I bet this woman is sorry she called the cops; she'd still have her husband and her children would still have a father. She should have called the paramedics instead.

reply to post by Demoncreeper


Uhhh, I meant get counseling before going off the deep end and killing someone.

and

5. Earn respect, don't demand it.

Having done that myself many times, I know precisely how it works: you respect others first.

Look, your job isn't all that different from others, except cops get to kill for free. I do know far more about human interactions than apparently you do. I get really, really tired of cops saying no one knows how tough their job is. What a load of crap. Lots of folks have a tough,stressful jobs: try driving a taxi, nursing, teaching, fishing, the military. Sorry, but that's a lame excuse. I've worked a lot of tough and stressful jobs, and controlled situations without having to taze anyone or kill them, even though they were upset and unpredictable.

I'd suggest you try walking in other peoples' shoes: go to a jurisdiction where you don't fit in and dress in a manner that irritates the local cops. Do something legal, but unapproved and watch how you're treated. Act not illegally but provacatively, and don't let on you're a cop. I'm pretty sure you won't like how you're treated.

Cops are dangerous because they are unpredictable.

Originally posted by spec_ops_wannabe
reply to post by Rhetoric

 

You're being sarcastic, right?
I mean honestly,

And since you like to claim honesty while defecating this kind of crap, does that mean you are a lawyer trained in the fine art of deception and prevarication? Or are you the class bully, the current LEO? Like this guy, I am all in favor of the law, and law enforcement. What this is, what you do, is bad, is wrong, is illegal, and is immmoral. If the murderers went before a judge, they are in the same club, and the judge would ignore the law and dismiss the case. Things will get worse, much worse, before they get any better. Either another revolution, or some other major event will happen to distract us. Copenhagen treaty is creating the one world govt., Russia, China, and others are calling for a one world currency, the press is promoting a one world religion, and Oprah says the Kenyan is the expected anti-christ. Next up...universal RFDI implants, then beheading the Christians. Then Christ returns (alien invasion!) and Prince Charles gits his butt kicked. And everything will be better than ever.

reply to post by Kr0n0s


Yep dude,

I'm not a "cop" anymore. I'm still in the law enforcement realm. I've just found a much cooler, less risky job. I came pretty close to leaving my wife without a husband and my children without a father.

*And here is a bit of personal stuff for those thinking we are all bad*

I had an individual get arrested for shoplifting in a store. The store LPO called because the minor offense *(theft under $5000) was committed by a repeat youth offender.
I knew this kid by name, I attended.

I arrived, and let my guard down. Because this was a kid that I've dealt with multiple times, we were on good relation basis.

I informed him that despite our acquaintance, he still needed to be processed. I've never treated him badly, he was an alright kid, just made dumb choices that got worse. Several times, I thought I had made some headway with him.

I even helped him find a place to live. Long story short, he had a concealed pistol in his waistband. I wasn't going to search him until we were at the vehicle. While exiting the store, he managed (while handcuffed), pull it out and fire 1 round sideways towards me. It didn't hit me, it ripped my uniform pants, and embedded in the cashier sign pole, 3 inches from a cashier.

I took pride in my ability to talk most situations down, with all my skills. I took pride in my ability to perceive that I might even be respected by the criminals.

Boy, eye opener. I decided to do something else, because I didn't want to turn into the A$$hole version of myself and treat everyone as though they were now this kid. I got into law enforcement to help people. Not get shot at by a kid that stole a pair of jeans.

Purpose of my point here...
Sometimes that is the reason ALL criminals are treated equal. Regardless of the size of the offense. Small, as some have put it "misdemeanors", aren't always committed by first time offenders.

I kinda take cop hating personally, but also can understand why they are hated by some people.

I don't condone ill timed taser use, pepper spray, baton, carotid restraint, arm bars, joint manipulation, abusive yelling. Everything is situational based.

This particular situation, WAS an act fast, as the individual was approaching moving cars, could have caused multiple vehicle collisions, killing a lot more than just himself. I don't think the officers were "wrong" in their attempt, as I truly believe they just wanted to stop the situation from continuing, and that decision was all their skills and training had to offer.

Most police officers in Canada don't readily pull out a taser.. As it happened here, a man was killed in Vancouver airport. My personal opinion there is, I found the usage of a taser, very uncalled for.

It was slightly similar to this one in a couple ways. But also vastly different. However, I don't think it was abused on the situation of this particular thread.

And if that warrants you all to hate me because of my opinion, then I guess the whole point of CIVIL open forum discussion is wasted.

I just think it is sad that there are a million police officers who would die to save your life. And only a few that would tase for very little reason. That sucks because it's still few too many.





[edit on 7-12-2009 by Demoncreeper]

I think you are all missing the point here. What was his wife able to do to control him?
The man had serious problems. He was damaged goods. It is better he is not reproducing anymore.

And the person that said a soldier officer is not more important than a civilian needs to reconsider. In time of war, like currently, an officer is much more valuable than a civilian.

reply to post by Demoncreeper


Believe it or not, mostly I agree with you, and empathize more than you might expect.

But I strongly feel that anyone with the power of life or death MUST be held to higher standards than others are, and they should be constantly and carefully monitored for signs of stress changing the way the approach the job.

Perhaps the solution is to require a two or three year break of doing something else after say ten years or so. That way they might be reminded that they are citizens, too: part of, not superior to, the main body of citizens they originally swore to protect.

reply to post by Demoncreeper

What is your opinion on what should have been done, and I would happily assess your idea, and give you answers on why it would or would not work.

I see two things wrong.

First he was tazered over the heart. --- There was not one but two officers. The guy was not RUNNING, he was walking, so why didn't one officer distract him while the other subdued him or tazered him in the arm or butt? Why a heart shot as if he was shooting to kill?

Second
Why the second tazer shot? This is the part I have never ever understood. The repeated use of tazers again as if the officer is treating it as a gun to kill instead of something to be used sparingly.

I train horses and I had the Animal Rights types jump all over me for using the flat of my hand to disipline one horse who was attacking another. They even called the cops!

If it is wrong for me to use a whip on 1000 lb animal in an aggressive mood or even my hand how come TWO police officers are allowed to use a potentially lethal weapon that causes severve pain on someone who needs help? (please note I am a 60 year lady still handling these animals)

This is not the first case like this. Aside from the pre-teens there was the guy who refused to get up on his feet because his back was broken. Again a family member had called for help and the police responded by torturing the person they are supposed to help.

There have been enough instances of abusive use of tazers that I think all officers should have to undergo the same sort of enquiry board after using a tazer as they would after firing a more lethal weapon. Lots of paperwork is a great way of making people think before they act. So perhap that would make officers reframe from using a taxzer except as a next to last resort.

reply to post by apacheman


I believe it, and agree dude.

People are people, regardless.

I'm hoping the RFID chip monitors this behavioral change as well.
haha.

Seriously though, officers are held to a higher standard. And not just on duty. But conduct reprimands take forever...so those standards kinda...
.

The cop that tased the 10 year old girl was fired. (she didn't die) The cop that tased the 10 year old boy was fired and charged criminally.(he didn't die). I'm seriously upset about children being tased.

That for the reasons you mention and a couple others are why I am out.
I loved my job and NEVER felt above anyone. A lot of police don't. However, now we are getting into behavioral aspects that are conducive to aggressive people anyways. The psyche of what the police forces look for in recruits is a bit un level. haha. to say the least.

I love my new job, where I can still seek out the "bad guy", but little risk of me or the "bad guy" getting hurt, let alone tased.
I do miss the old fashioned "tussles" tho.

Having not been there personally, I don't know. But, if 2 officers couldn't take him down without resorting to the Taser, maybe they should look for another line of work.
That said, I know for a fact alot of leos misuse their positions. I've been punched, while hand cuffed, stripped down to my underwear on the side of the highway (so they could photograph my tattoos), while my possessions removed from my motorcycle and gone through (without my permission) where being blown down the same highway by passing traffic. I've had personal property siezed and never returned, no explanation given. I've also been the victim of a hit and run on a motorcycle and never had follow up on that.......they even listed the victim as nhi.....no human involved. I have only met one officer in my whole life who I respected.........seems more and more they seem to be able to do what they want and get away with it.......they signed on to do a job, protect and serve......not protect and lie to covereach others bad behavior/attitudes.

reply to post by crimvelvet


I agree, that would have been a decent approach. Like the Lethal Weapon 4 opening, one guy runs around in his underwear to distract the dude to turn for the clean shot at the napalm valve. Hmm. Same out come there tho.

I've seen a lot of people tased in the chest and live, in multiple situations. Infact officers are trained to shoot for body mass.

The second current was deployed as the individual was getting up, definitely the officers could have reacted quicker and cuffed the individual when he initially went down. Some factors we are missing though. Did he get up immediately upon falling? But yeah. That is lazy and letting the taser do your job.

Nice. Thanks though. I forgot about the secondary deployment.

[edit on 7-12-2009 by Demoncreeper]

Look at this guy here, this is the one i mentioned earlier, i said he was on a bridge or something but whatever... anyway, he was about 10' off the ground, waving a tube light at the cops, (like a light saber) lol.
The cops couldnt wait for an air bag to be placed under him, they didnt even try to build up a makeshift platform to break his fall.
What did they do? they tase him, where else would this guy have to fall but down to the ground.
Which he did and landed on his head and killed him.
Why the impatience? wtf else did they have to do that they couldnt wait for a mattress?
I just dont get the reasoning behind this act, they shouldve had murder charges brought against them though.

New Yorks Finest, pfft...




[edit on 12/7/2009 by Kr0n0s]

I see some people have forgotten something very important. What is that thing?

Police are trained in hand to hand combat, in how to take down another human. It only takes one officer to do the job right, two if the person is hard to bring down.

Remember this: They are capable due to their training. What we see today is police being AFRAID and opting immediately for the Tazer. Gutless people.

So then why do so many of you think it is okay, perfectly good for the police to Tazer anyone? You wold say the opposite if it was you or your loved one being Tazed.

Originally posted by Tayesin
I see some people have forgotten something very important. What is that thing?

Police are trained in hand to hand combat, in how to take down another human. It only takes one officer to do the job right, two if the person is hard to bring down.

Remember this: They are capable due to their training. What we see today is police being AFRAID and opting immediately for the Tazer. Gutless people.

So then why do so many of you think it is okay, perfectly good for the police to Tazer anyone? You wold say the opposite if it was you or your loved one being Tazed.

I agree 100%. If you haven't got the intestinal fortitude for the job, don't do it. What I find disturbing is the trend to use the easy way out, instead of accepting their responsibilty to "Protect", that doesn't just mean them, it means all citizens.

reply to post by Tayesin


Totally agree. As I pointed out on page 2...apparently cops these days are all scared pansies. I used to think they actually *trained* to "protect and serve". Sounds like today, they just have to know how to point a taser at someone. (in this case, the cops didn't even know how to do THAT apparently).