Cops Taze Unarmed Naked Man to Death for "Walking Toward Them'

Originally posted by Conspiracy Theorist
Right or wrong, you (and everybody) are a potential threat to every LEO you encounter.

I have seen and heard of weapons being produced by the most unlikely of people. Elderly, disabled, children. Better to not let the guard down and get home safe than get knifed in the back by some old lady with dementia.

CT

Paranoid are we?I think you belong in the military. We aren't talking about Vietnam or Pakistan/Afghanistan/Iraq. We're talking about the United States. If everyone took on your mentality then we really would be in a literal "police state".





[edit on 7-12-2009 by Wookiep]

Originally posted by Conspiracy Theorist
Im not advocating any precedence. Im saying that in this situation, the officer acted correctly and the result is a tragedy.

But that sets the precedence. If one time it becomes accepted, then it gives rise to others to do the exact same thing, citing references to cases like this where the officers have not considered the situation properly and reached for the taser before they consider any alternatives.

You are justifying the murder of an innocent man whether you think yo are or not.

If any average citizen on the street were to carry any device that had the possibility to cause death, and used it against someone in the exact same situation, you can bet they would be charged with murder.

Manslaughter at the least.

The taser is not an alternative to good thinking.

And you don't see anything wrong with the situation, one that for decades and decades was dealt with via means of sheer strength and tenacity.

Now it's all push buttons, sit back and if someone dies, meh, it's terrible, but he deserved it because (insert rant here)

Why not pepper spray? Why not backing away and trying to talk the person into compliance - no, he was mentally impaired, so use possible lethal force on him.

Every situation is different so your generalisation is not valid.

I was referring to this case, so it is not a generalization. You know that, considering I state pertinent details relating to this case.

No I dont see anything wrong with this situation, tragic outcome aside of course.

Why not pepper spray? My opinion is that it could easily disorient the man causing him to wander into traffic or any number of other possibilities.

Ok, non-lethal shots fired into his legs. Would you see a problem with that? Of a gun I am referring to, just to elucidate my point.

As for backing away, how far? next street? next town? when should they engage, when their backs are to the ocean??

To the point where it is obvious he is not going to be deterred from his actions, and then OTHER options considered. Not just "Crap, naked mad guy, wheres my taser!"

Be realistic, and dont get all hysterical in trying to deflect the use of other options.

They mas aswell have run into him with their patrol car. No physical contact so the germs are kept away, the mad heinous deranged naked criminal cannot get their guns off them, and he'll be knocked down and incapacitated.

I just don't believe people can justify this.

They should give out free KY jelly with this police state agenda - it helps with the compliance when you band over all the way.

Now your just firing blindly. Tangents are fun but not very constructive.

CT

Hang on, everything I've suggested and even the absurdity of some of it, results in a mans life saved.

But it's not constructive.

Originally posted by Wookiep
Paranoid are we?I think you belong in the military. We aren't talking about vietnam or pakistan. We're talking about the United States. If everyone took on your mentality then we really would be in a literal "police state".

Reading too much into things are we? Im saying you cant let your guard down, not that you draw weapons and handcuff every person you come across. Eyes open and aware. Dont turn your back, that sort of thing.

I still sleep soundly.

Besides all this, Im not an LEO although I am involved in training and support.

CT

Originally posted by Conspiracy Theorist
Right or wrong, you (and everybody) are a potential threat to every LEO you encounter.

I have seen and heard of weapons being produced by the most unlikely of people. Elderly, disabled, children. Better to not let the guard down and get home safe than get knifed in the back by some old lady with dementia.

CT

The job is to protect society, not assume everyone is a criminal and taser them or treat them with the contempt a criminal would deserve.

If you have no intent on treating people as innocent, and trying to help, do not put that uniform on, or you betray the very reason you are given the right to wear it.

Originally posted by Conspiracy Theorist

Originally posted by Wookiep
Paranoid are we?I think you belong in the military. We aren't talking about vietnam or pakistan. We're talking about the United States. If everyone took on your mentality then we really would be in a literal "police state".

Reading too much into things are we? Im saying you cant let your guard down, not that you draw weapons and handcuff every person you come across. Eyes open and aware. Dont turn your back, that sort of thing.

I still sleep soundly.

Besides all this, Im not an LEO although I am involved in training and support.

CT

I'm only reading into the things you are proposing. If you are a cop, and think like this in terms of the average American, then you have no business protecting civilians. You're kinda proving to me at least how a lot of cops think.. And the thought IMO to me is disturbing to say the least.

I'm not saying bad people etc don't exsist. Go to any major city's projects, yeah it's crappy and even the cops in some cases don't get involved. I'm talking about the average citizen. If someone has a mental heath problem and decides to walk around naked for God's sake, use better judgement other than "he might try to grab my gun! TASE his ass in the chest a couple times!!"



[edit on 7-12-2009 by Wookiep]

I'm sorry but some cops today are panzies. Back in the days before Tazers, Cops had balls and would take criminals down with their Judo training.

Now they're getting lazy thanks to this technology that's killing people for no reason.

You're telling me 2 well trained police officers can't corral 1 crazy individual? Obviously there was no threat with a weapon since the guy was naked. We see police officers do it on COPS all the time, why not here?

This is just laziness and poor policing by these cops.

[edit on 7-12-2009 by Roid_Rage27]

Wow, the stupidity of the posts on this are jaw dropping! I feel sorry for anyone who agrees with the officers actions. Whats wrong with physically restraining the guy and then using handcuffs? Its called police work.

Also, it seems a lot of people here dont know the difference between bi-polar and a psychotic disorder and I am amazed that some of you actually managed to turn on your computers without assistance.

[edit on 7-12-2009 by asturel13]

But that sets the precedence. If one time it becomes accepted, then it gives rise to others to do the exact same thing, citing references to cases like this where the officers have not considered the situation properly and reached for the taser before they consider any alternatives.

This happens. Everyday. You just dont get all flustered about it because noone dies as a result. The tragedy that occured here is probably 1 in 100000 cases of a person being tased.

And you go on to make assumptions regarding what happens in the future as a result of this situation.

You are justifying the murder of an innocent man whether you think yo are or not.

Please understand that in no sense of the word, is this action a murder.

I was referring to this case, so it is not a generalization. You know that, considering I state pertinent details relating to this case.

Considering this situation lasted about a minute and you said:
"And you don't see anything wrong with the situation, one that for decades and decades was dealt with via means of sheer strength and tenacity."
I'd argue that it was a generalisation. EVERY CONFRONTATION IS DIFFERENT. They do not compare.

Ok, non-lethal shots fired into his legs. Would you see a problem with that? Of a gun I am referring to, just to elucidate my point.

You cannot be serious. No accepted defense firearm training would include this in their course. When a firearm is drawn and fired, the training it to shoot at the largest body mass. The torso. It will never be any other way. and rightly so.

To the point where it is obvious he is not going to be deterred from his actions, and then OTHER options considered. Not just "Crap, naked mad guy, wheres my taser!"

Be realistic, and dont get all hysterical in trying to deflect the use of other options

I am being realistic. You are not. Police should never back away further than where their vehicles are located, except in extreme situations. Should they provide the subject with a driver or just let him take the car on his own?

Hang on, everything I've suggested and even the absurdity of some of it, results in a mans life saved.

But it's not constructive.

So you are advocating setting the precedent of hitting subjects with cars as an alternative to tasing. Yeah. Hit by car is less lethal than a taser. Constructive alright!

CT



[edit on 7/12/2009 by Conspiracy Theorist]

reply to post by Rhetoric


Oh, man, the guy was naked, he should have been tazed on his peepee. That would have stopped his nonsense.

Okay, the sarcasm is over.

WTF?

Was the guy swinging a large weapon? Nope. Was he madly rushing towards the LEO's? Nope.

Oh, well, taze a guy who says, "Don't taze me, bro." Taze a 10 year old. Handcuff a 6 year old. Whatever it takes, "I don't want to ruin the press of my pants, or get my shirt dirty."

I haven't read all of the messages, but I can imagine there are comments about how the guy, or his wife, should have had better control over him.
Yeah, okay. I might be wrong, since I didn't read the posts.

Maybe I might find out the whole story was BS and the guy was obviously out of control and the police feared for their lives.

But from first look, sheesh, we have this ability to communicate verbally to each other, unless, say, oh, the guy was from Eastern Mombamacoo and didn't understand the local language.

I'm waiting to hear about my 7 year old grandson being handcuffed or tazed at school, because he is seemingly out of control. Nope, it won't happen here where I live. We actually have adults in positions of authority who realize talking can do wonders, even in tense situations.

Or someone could just call in grandpa and he will take control. And no one will get hurt, other than their feelings.

Yeah, it all doesnt work out this way, I suppose. Jeeze, folks. Take some time. And really, a fat lip is much better than a stopped heart, heh, or a tazed peepee, even if the fat lip is my own. At least nobody dies. And we all go home.

Makes me sick to read some of the replies here. The Taser is supposed to be a replacement to lethal force in the event an officer's life is in danger.

If this is considered a dangerous situation, I would advise the police training programs to include a class on controlling fears. Honestly, Murderous cops always seem to justify their actions with their fears.

A COP'S LIFE IS ONLY IN DANGER WHEN DANGER THREATENS HIS LIFE!! NOT WHEN HE THINKS DANGER MAY OR MAY NOT BE PRESENT!!!

TASER'S are not a deterent to Danger! It's supposed to be used in the face of danger. A naked unarmed confused man is not dangerous to a well trained, intelligent and armed human being.


It's supposed to be a part of their training to determine what is a danger and what is an inconvenience. Furthermore, a cop's perception of danger must be a part of his training!!!!

What's next? A cop shoots a guy in the head because he approached them with a broken arm?

Are you people for real? Seriously have you all lost your last marble in your heads?

I'm not trying to be insulting but seriously what's happening to people to think that someone walking towards a cop is a life threatening situation in all situations????????

Plain and simple....If you are a cop you should be prepared to face any danger. Maybe if they werent so FAT and IGNORANT these days, things like this would not happen. Most of them are so cocky they dont know how to talk a person down.
If a cop feels his life is in danger then he knows he is a cop, because thats what the job is all about.

More training is needed and alot more common sense, which I have noticed they dont seem to have anymore.

Originally posted by Conspiracy Theorist
This happens. Everyday. You just dont get all flustered about it because noone dies as a result. The tragedy that occured here is probably 1 in 100000 cases of a person being tased.

If we were to have record of every single unwarranted taze of a civillian, you can bet it would be reason for people to be concerned.

But as it is, we only hear about the ones that are unjustified and are either caught on camera OR result in a death.

Does not make the rest of the unwarranted use of tasers any more acceptable.

And you go on to make assumptions regarding what happens in the future as a result of this situation.

That is what a precedent is. To base your actions on anothers, that was deemed acceptable or justified.

You are justifying the murder of an innocent man whether you think yo are or not.

Please understand that in no sense of the word, is this action a murder.

As I included, manslaughter at the least.

And that in every sense of the word, is what it was.

I was referring to this case, so it is not a generalization. You know that, considering I state pertinent details relating to this case.

Considering this situation lasted about a minute and you said:
"And you don't see anything wrong with the situation, one that for decades and decades was dealt with via means of sheer strength and tenacity."
I'd argue that it was a generalisation. EVERY CONFRONTATION IS DIFFERENT. They do not compare.

Entirely separate statements clearly separate. But I can see how you did consider it one. I parsed my thoughts badly there.

Regardless, I was stating that for decades things have been done differently, and that was when leo's were considered of good upstanding.

NOW, in cases like this, no reasonable means to subdue the person is even considered; it's all out thug tactics. We are NOT at war with our own people.

Ok, non-lethal shots fired into his legs. Would you see a problem with that? Of a gun I am referring to, just to elucidate my point.

You cannot be serious. No accepted defense firearm training would include this in their course. When a firearm is drawn and fired, the training it to shoot at the largest body mass. The torso. It will never be any other way. and rightly so.

So you do see a problem with it. Yet as tasers were originally developed as a non-lethal alternative to lethal firearms, when someone does die, you see NO problem with it.

A lethal weapon used in a non-lethal manner to subdue a naked and unarmed member of the public who is under duress from a mental instability is a non serious concept - But a potentially lethal electro-shock weapon which has gained more use as a pain-compliance tool than an alternative to lethal force, which HAS and CAN result in death, is the best alternative.

Again, Im just lost at the logic. Wookiep is right, orders must be obeyed.

And I do disagree with your "Rightly so" claim at the end. But that's another topic.

To the point where it is obvious he is not going to be deterred from his actions, and then OTHER options considered. Not just "Crap, naked mad guy, wheres my taser!"

Be realistic, and dont get all hysterical in trying to deflect the use of other options

I am being realistic.

Your statements to which I replied, were far from it.

You are not. Police should never back away further than where their vehicles are located, except in extreme situations. Should they provide the subject with a driver or just let him take the car on his own?

Did they back away at all here trying to diffuse the situation, or just reach for the cattle prod?

At least were whittling down the basics to a narrower field of argument.

We agree, they could have at least backed away to the point of their vehicle. We have no indication this was done, and given the attitudes of those with tasers, I see no reason why they would have. Merely, a means to an end. No need to work it out. Just point and click.

Hang on, everything I've suggested and even the absurdity of some of it, results in a mans life saved.

But it's not constructive.

So you are advocating setting the precedent of hitting subjects with cars as an alternative to tasing. Yeah. Hit by car is less lethal than a taser. Constructive alright!

CT

[edit on 7/12/2009 by Conspiracy Theorist]

You actually edited your post and left that in?

You can't see the points for the arguments you have, can you.

Oh well , the man is dead, he wont be shaking his doodle at anyone ever again, will he... That incredulous criminal fiend...

Originally posted by crmanager
reply to post by Rhetoric

 

If youare looking for sympathy you are looking in the wrong place.

"Taser a man to death" Love the inflammatory wording.

If he got a bruise you would be screaming about abuse.

By the way. "I am not against the ploice..." and 'Now they Tazer..." shows your true colors.

That was a rather blunt and charged statement to the OP. You could have said the same thing using different language that isn't meant to insult or attack. I don't think that the OP is showing any "colors," I think he's just showing concern over the general welfare of the U.S. citizens who pay taxes and are meant to be protected.

Wow... Stop and think... Police kill Mentally retarded(unarmed) man. Yea ok, I can understand the tazer... but its not like cops are a bad aim, why did he have to aim for the upper torso, why not a leg, it would definately get him down just as fast. And if he looked like he was ready to get up? Hey man, you have pepper spray.. Maybe even give him a punch or two to the head.

All I'm saying is that I've seen cases of drunked naked people.. do the same exact thing.. and cops just takle them down.

It makes me sad to see no sympathy for a mentally retarded man who died by the hands of TRAINED PROFESSIONALS.

Right or wrong, you (and everybody) are a potential threat to every LEO you encounter.

I have seen and heard of weapons being produced by the most unlikely of people. Elderly, disabled, children. Better to not let the guard down and get home safe than get knifed in the back by some old lady with dementia.

CT

Clearly your issues go farther than this one.. lol My Nanna who has dementia cant even remember what a pencil is used for... good luck getting her to rig you up a shank.

[edit on 8-12-2009 by WhereAreWe]

reply to post by spec_ops_wannabe


Listen, I can understand that you are a soldier of some kind, and that your training teaches you to kill, and to kill without reservation or prejudice, but you are completely wrong here.

This guy was having a psychotic episode. He had mental problems and was taking medication for it. His wife CALLED the cops for HELP, not so they could kill her husband.

Do you think people who work in a mental ward kill people when they freak out? No, not usually. They just wrestle the person down. But this particular cop was afraid of the blood on the guy, or afraid of touching the guy. That is just stupid and babyish.

What this guy needed was an ambulance and some PROFESSIONALS who know how to deal with people that are freaking out. It's silly to give verbal commands to somebody who is having a mental problem, and obviously that cop was gung-ho to taser that guy. I mean, what if the guy was epileptic and was frothing at the mouth on the ground?

I really can't believe you are unable to make a distinction between true threats from people who have intent to do harm, and innocent victims of circumstance who need assistance. Certainly you a smarter than the Terminator robots!

I bet if that cop had a son who was bi polar and pulled the same thing and he was killed by a tazer he would feel alot different about the situation.

These days cops think anyone that is not a cop is a criminal.

I would not call a cop for ANYTHING not in a million years. And I am a female. Nothing good could ever come of it.

READ THIS... SHEER STUPIDITY...DUMB ASSES WITH NO COMMON SENSE!!!

blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com...

Originally posted by spec_ops_wannabe
reply to post by Rhetoric

 

You're being sarcastic, right?
I mean honestly, if you had to deal with some guy with mental health problems who had his clothes off and you were expected to bring him in?
I for one if I were in the same spot as that traffic cop, I'd use the taser immediately because I don't want to tackle a naked guy who is probably unstable and therefore unpredictable if he was having an "episode" like that.
Common sense pal, the guy was likely a threat to himself and the people around him, especially if he went so far as to get completely buttocks naked in public.

why not just....knock him out or hold him down or request back up, not overused tazer

What people need to realize is that when they need help the last people you should ever call is the police. The police officers in the United States are arrogant, self centered and demand your obedience. They don't give a rats behind about a crazed naked man on the lose. All they care about is you doing what they say. If you don't do what they say, even if it violates your rights then they will hurt you. Don't ever call the cops for help unless your dying and you need some assistants in doing that.

Not everyone is cut out to be a cop either..

Its not just the education you need, you have to be intuitive and have very good skills pertaining to how to act in all sorts of situations, no two calls you go on will be the same, no two people act the same way under certain circumstances.

I think that might be part of the problem.

A few points if I may:

The man was not retarded as another insensitive poster has said. He had Bipolar.
I don't know how bipolar is diagnosed and treated in the US but in Australia there are basically 5 different Levels.
Level 1 bipolar means chronic depression, there may not even be episodes of Psychosis or hypermania. Level 5 is the extreme form which includes both episodes of extreme depression and extreme hypermania, Hypermania is a "high". In the extreme forms, say level 4 and 5 the sufferer may exhibit homocidal or violent behaviour. During a "low" the sufferer may exhibit suicidal behaviour.
The article does not say what level of bipolar the man had. If he only had Level 1 or two he may have just been suffering fear and confusion.
It is not fair on either the police or the man in question to form an opinion on the limited information at hand.
I have a close family member the suffers from level 4 bipolar and i have seen it take 4 large ambulance men to restrain her and she is not a large woman. It can be a very frightening experience as the sufferer does not respond to reason and is often delusional.

I really feel for the guy and especially his family.

[edit on 8-12-2009 by platoman]