Ancient Spacemen?, page 1

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Topic started on 2-12-2009 @ 09:35 PM by serbsta

Normally i would post these kind of things in the ancient civilizations forum, but i thought it would be interesting to get the UFO community's input on some of the things below. I'll be presenting 2 cases, the first is grave lid of Mayan Lord Pacal, the second is an Olmec statue of a 'man in a serpent'.

Lord Pacal

Lord Pacal (23 March 603 - 28 August 683) was the Mayan ruler of Palenque. The below is the lid of his sarcophagus, which bears an interesting image.

Clearly this is resembling some sort of machine, unless it is metaphoric. If it was just a product of an avid imagination, it sure did guess what a cockpit looks like pretty accurately. The below link takes you to an image of a diagram which has a more indepth analysis of what is shown on the lid:

i176.photobucket.com...

Man in Serpent

This Olmec statue was found in the ancient site of La Venta.

This man seems to be in sort of a machine, symbolized by the serpent, which was a symbol of power. Some of the parts within the serpent are clearly not natural, and again we have a natural cockpit body formation, feet and hands, controlling the craft.

Thoughts?

[edit on 2/12/2009 by serbsta]

Mod edit: Edited by poster request

[edit on 4/12/2009 by ArMaP]

reply posted on 2-12-2009 @ 09:42 PM by fleabit

Are you suggesting they are mimicking things they have seen? i.e. alien visitors. Or they themselves were spacemen? I would find the latter utterly unbelievable.

You can't create mechanical machinery, rockets, and all the rest, without advanced industrial processes. It would require factories, and advanced knowledge of plastics, metallurgy, physics, and so on. There would be obvious evidence of these sorts of advances. You are saying we can find their structures, bones, tombs, weapons... but we can't find any of the technology?

While some feel our ancestors were far more advanced than we realize, I think they were perhaps somewhat more advanced, but not anything even close to what others believe, but were also a lot more ingenious with their solutions to problems than we would have originally thought.

I also don't think it's them carving what they experienced. I think this is just a normal carving misinterpreted. If they really had that much exposure to something so amazing that it made them carve it in stone, don't you think they would find dozens of not hundreds of references? Not one or two? I do.

reply posted on 2-12-2009 @ 09:46 PM by serbsta

Originally posted by fleabit

I also don't think it's them carving what they experienced. I think this is just a normal carving misinterpreted. If they really had that much exposure to something so amazing that it made them carve it in stone, don't you think they would find dozens of not hundreds of references? Not one or two? I do.

Well i was hoping not to discuss this, in this thread. The reason for so little 'evidence' of anything relating to any pre-Colombian civilization really, can be attributed to the satanic crusade of the Spanish conquistadors. They beheaded civilizations; burning books, massacring artifacts, and buildings church's on top of ancient pyramidal sites. This is a different topic though.

What are your thoughts on the eerily accurate cockpit-like depictions above?

reply posted on 2-12-2009 @ 09:53 PM by ByteChanger

For about 1000 examples, check out "Dead Men's Secrets". I recently read in a post about "The black Knight Satellite" and ran off on a tangent and found the above book, It talks about Ancient civilizations, Ancient Technolgy, etc etc.

Its very similar to "Chariots of the Gods"...

[edit on 2-12-2009 by ByteChanger]

reply posted on 2-12-2009 @ 09:58 PM by fishing

I agree with you a picture is worth a thousand words.It looks like a craft to me.How would ancients know about the need for air???They saw something !!!

reply posted on 2-12-2009 @ 10:00 PM by fleabit

I don't think it's an even close example of an astronaut in a cockpit. Do this: Remove all the background stuff in your head, and what does it look like he is doing? To me, it looks like he is running or jumping. His hair isn't floating due to lack of gravity, it's just moving while he jumps.

It's typical for the human mind once it has an idea, to embellish or jump to conclusions to reach a goal it has predetermined. For example, check out the "weapon" and the "navigational system." They are the same design in different spots. Yet the human minds feels that a spaceship needs "fins" and of course, the weapon gets put up front, so thus they are labeled.

It's a lot of guesswork to create something that really isn't there. Another guy has the knack of doing this, but he was smart enough I guess you could say (I call him a scam), to create website and some I dunno.. 30 works? that he will happily sell to you, to explain his special interpretation of clay tablets.

reply posted on 2-12-2009 @ 10:02 PM by Jordan_The_Maori

reply to post by serbsta

Nice find, S & F

My thoughts on the Lord Pacal carving is that the Mayans seemed to have a pretty good perspective as to what a semi-modern cockpit looked like. The position of the man's body and limbs almost looks like he's riding a bicycle, or maybe like one of those one-man flying kite bicycles you sometimes see. Not sure what the name of this is though. Maybe someone can fill that in.

Anyways, if the Mayan's did have the capability to use flying machines, I highly doubt they would have invented the technology. The most logicl explanation I can come up with off the top of my head would have to be that possible Extra-Terrestrial visitation and exchange in knowledge may have been in progress between them and the Mayans.

Just my opinion, lets hear everyone else's.

reply posted on 2-12-2009 @ 10:05 PM by snusfanatic

That first one doens't look like any kind of pilot or craft to me. it looks like a 2 dimensional representation of a king on his thrown looking out over a city, or a map in some way, doing his business fixing or manipulating things.

any one else see what i'm seeing?

reply posted on 2-12-2009 @ 10:15 PM by fishing

My question to you is why are their calendars so advanced??Its not just coincidence ,it seems advanced for a primitive people???

reply posted on 2-12-2009 @ 10:38 PM by hoghead cheese

Actually This is in Chariots of the Gods printed back in 1968 by Erich von Däniken. He had the picture and everything in the book and described it exactly as the website you got the picture pointed out. The skeptics say that it was him going down into the underworld. But to me it sure looks like he's sitting in something. Also about the black night, I've heard about it but never did any research about it. But that does fit with what Regan told his wife I believe (could have been another woman) that there was an orbiting alien station over the poles, I wonder if he may have been talking about the same thing the black night. Who knows, but I do believe that we will find out about our history and once it comes out, it will be an awakening that will get people really thinking about themselves in this universe.

reply posted on 2-12-2009 @ 10:43 PM by serbsta

Originally posted by fleabit
I don't think it's an even close example of an astronaut in a cockpit. Do this: Remove all the background stuff in your head, and what does it look like he is doing? To me, it looks like he is running or jumping. His hair isn't floating due to lack of gravity, it's just moving while he jumps.

Well to me it doesn't look like he's jumping, it could be a number of things, such as a procession to the afterlife, rather than jumping. Why would they commemorate him jumping?

I am not jumping to any conclusions, i am far off from any conclusions, im just pointing out some of things, none of which reflect my beliefs in any way.

And for the rest of the responses; i never said anything about the Mayans having developed this technology.

reply posted on 2-12-2009 @ 10:48 PM by jkrog08

reply to post by serbsta

This drawing has been a centerpiece of the Ancient Astronaut Theory since its discovery many decades ago. Of course it is still controversial and theories range from the drawing representing Lord Pacal falling into the mouth of a beast to the drawing being a metaphorical representation of his ascension to the center of the Universe, which was a central part of Mayan religion. Of course there are also theories that the drawing represents an actual ancient astronaut on a ancient spacecraft, and obviously that interpretation could be easily made.

For me however, there are a few logical issues with the latter theory. If the Mayans learned of this technology from ETs then why does it appear to represent something very similar to our present day rocket cockpits? Wouldn't it be more advanced than that? Also, like others pointed out already, where is the evidence of the manufacture of such technologies, surely the Spanish would not have been capable of wiping out everything, including factories that made the craft.

Of course there is the theory of very ancient civilizations like Atlantis, Lemuria, and Mu being descended of an even more ancient, originally alien race that came here and at one time in the far past we were at least on the same level (likely a little more advanced) than we are now. Of course other theories state there was no alien race involved, we just advanced on our own in the far past and for one reason or another all that information was lost until now. There is some interesting records, drawings, stories, etc from all over the globe that are very interesting and definitely worthy of further research. The following threads offer examples of such ancient "anomalous evidence":

Ancient Extraterrestrials

Ancient Astronauts Evidence

Aliens of Ancient China

Of Emperors and Sky Gods

Of Flying Dragons and Metallic Discs

Of Ancient Wars and Spacecraft

Pretty much there is just a lot of unknowns and many logical and historical issues that still need sorting out before any type of conclusion can be reached either way in my opinion. So until some type of further evidence comes about in the case of the Lord Pacal drawing I would have to say that the interpretation of an ascension to the center of the Universe seems much more likely given the facts of the case. I don't know if you have checked out this web page but it seems to contain some interesting information about this case:

www.earthmatrix.com...

Here is a good documentary on ancient aliens/astronauts:

YouTube Link

Interesting thread, thanks for sharing. S/F...

[edit on 12/2/2009 by jkrog08]

reply posted on 2-12-2009 @ 11:26 PM by serbsta

Originally posted by jkrog08

For me however, there are a few logical issues with the latter theory. If the Mayans learned of this technology from ETs then why does it appear to represent something very similar to our present day rocket cockpits? Wouldn't it be more advanced than that? Also, like others pointed out already, where is the evidence of the manufacture of such technologies, surely the Spanish would not have been capable of wiping out everything, including factories that made the craft.

Don't underestimate what the Spanish did. 'Beheading of a civilization' is not an understatement, that's not to say that some did not go out of their way to preserve the knowledge, meaning of course that the existence of any 'factories' should have been accounted for through interviews of the elders of the area.

Let's talk about the first point you mentioned there, though. The cockpit in the first image is not so much like our modern day ones, in terms of the position of the 'pilot'. Both depict singularly operable machines, the first in an unconventional position, the second in a position which more closely resembles today's cockpits. So no, i think there is a fundamental difference with the first image and a modern day cockpit in terms of positioning of the pilot.

Thanks for the links, i've read all those threads of Skyfloating, and watched the documentary. Anyone reading this thread who is interested in the area should check them out.

reply posted on 2-12-2009 @ 11:38 PM by Phage

"Some sort of Weapon". "Obvious mechanical shape of machine".
Right. I don't think so.

en.wikipedia.org...

[edit on 12/2/2009 by Phage]

reply posted on 2-12-2009 @ 11:50 PM by jkrog08

reply to post by serbsta

If I am not mistaken isn't the actual position of the image on the sarcophagus oriented vertical, and not horizontal? That to me rings of a much more similar shape to a modern rocket ship, which takes us back to the logical inconsistencies I mentioned, which could be attributed to us seeing what we are familiar with and/or want to see, which is all too common in interpreting such ancient drawings, especially when we have very little to go by on what the original meaning was supposed to be, other than whatever cultural knowledge we have on a general level. That is why I said unless some type of evidence comes forth to refute the more logical "ascension theory" I think that makes the most sense. In this case I think Occam's Razor and further logic, as well historical knowledge seems to point towards a more mundane explanation to this particular drawing.

While I am not disputing some other ancient astronaut-type of evidence I feel this particular case seems to point towards a mundane explanation. Now in regards to "not underestimating the Spanish", I don't think I am, but it is a stretch IMHO to think that they would be able to totally destroy all evidence of a manufacturing process, especially considering they left the sarcophagus undestroyed. Again, this is all my personal opinion based on research and my own take on this and many other similar cases.

[edit on 12/2/2009 by jkrog08]

reply posted on 2-12-2009 @ 11:55 PM by Phage

reply to post by jkrog08

er.
Aren't sarcophagi usually laid out flat? I would think the actual "up" direction is just the entire carved surface. This is the lid of the box.

Not that it really matters.

[edit on 12/2/2009 by Phage]

reply posted on 3-12-2009 @ 12:01 AM by jkrog08

reply to post by Phage

Not that it really matters.

LOL, nope not really...What matters is the general meaning of the drawing (which we both agree upon

), not the orientation (in a up or down manner anyways).

[edit on 12/3/2009 by jkrog08]

reply posted on 3-12-2009 @ 12:04 AM by Phage

reply to post by jkrog08

Look at the link I posted.
He's just taking a snooze. Kicked back sideways on his throne.

reply posted on 3-12-2009 @ 12:15 AM by serbsta

reply to post by jkrog08

I suppose it depends from which way you look at it. I side with the logical ascension theory aswell, since the symbolism on the sides shows a traversing of stars and ages. But i just posted it here to see what the UFO community thought.

Originally posted by Phage
"Some sort of Weapon". "Obvious mechanical shape of machine".
Right. I don't think so.

en.wikipedia.org...

[edit on 12/2/2009 by Phage]

Again, it depends which way you're looking at it from. If he were just 'taking a snooze' its certainly a strange position to do it in, with his legs and arms out like that. If he were 'snoozing' he must have been having a real bad nightmare, pawing at the air.

reply posted on 3-12-2009 @ 12:23 AM by Phage

reply to post by serbsta

Yeah, well. I was sorta kidding.
I'm sure each gesture has a symbolic meaning and I'm sure the glyphs are readable as well, but not by me.

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