Swiss voters favour minaret ban: exit polls

reply to post by plumranch


Moderate Muslim countries allow Churches.
So the Swiss are not a moderate Western Country.

do that in saudi arabia, or iran, who are funding most of the imans working here... look at the money

[edit on 29-11-2009 by McFlemish]

reply to post by McFlemish


Please tell me how that wiki article you posted contradicts the fact that swiss women got their right to vote in 1971. Can you quote the exact paragraph?

From another wiki article, women were granted the right to vote in

1971 * Switzerland (on the federal level; introduced on the Cantonal level from 1958-1990)

Oh yeah, there has been a canton that only agreed to let women vote in 1990.

Here's another source:

www.swissworld.org...

on February 7th 1971 Swiss males, by a two thirds majority, finally gave their female compatriots their full federal voting rights.

How many Muslim countries [Moderate or Not] do women have the right to vote?
I'm just curious.

Originally posted by shamhat
Switzerland is hardly a progressive country, !

My post was aimed at the fact that this country has the most democratic system of governement everywhere.

In any place else this would have been hushed up due to PC

Originally posted by Circle

Originally posted by osc121
To me this is just democracy at work. there was a ballot and the populous has chosen. yes sad for the muslims i agree, but muslims seem to think that they have an allah given right to move into an area and dominate it

the people of Switzerland obviously don't want to change that quickly.

The strenghth of a democracy is in its respect for minorities. Mind you, if you have an Islamic State there will be no democracy.

[edit on 29-11-2009 by Circle]

I totally agree with your view on minorities in a democracy, but a democracy cannot legislate for integration. that must come from the immigrants into that democracy, as they are the ones moving into an existing and predefined structured culture.

by very definition of their religion, muslims are a non integrating culture.

Western democracies are conservative by nature i.e. resistant to change

Here in the uk we have had a mass immigration policy for about 50 years and has sadly failed overall due to a failure of a sensible inclusion / integration policy. we have had an accelerated immigration policy over the past 10 years which has created considerable amounts of small communities resistant to accepting and adopting host nation culture. which should really be the reason for entry to the country.

Until muslim immigrants are willing to accept and tolerate their new host nation values and culture, then there will always be suspicion & conflict

Originally posted by McFlemish
As shocking as it may seem, we have only been able to do this by fighting numerous crusades against the muslim hordes. We even got to kick them out of Spain and France. If we would have let them in, we would not have talked about the 'old world' as it is now. We would still be 500years ago. We would not have our civilisation, we would not have been able to talk here, we would have lived in a kind of Iran, under the law of Sharia.

There was a time when the Islamic world was far more progressive and tolerant than the Christian one. For example when muslims were kicked out of Spain and France things got way worse for all non-Christians (especially jews). Islamic world carried the light during the dark ages. Without them almost everything would have been lost. Of course it's a different story now..

As for this piece of news. I don't really understand what the Swiss think they'll achieve with this. It seems like pointless provocation to me. If we want to ban something related to religion let it be the brainwashing of children with religious fairy tales like heaven and hell and so on. A better world would soon follow.. just like Lennon said in Imagine.

People fighting each other about what buildings they can build so they can better worship imaginary beings. The stupidity.. I'm ashamed of my species

[edit on 29-11-2009 by rhinoceros]

Originally posted by rhinocerosPeople fighting each other about what buildings they can build so they can better worship imaginary beings. The stupidity.. I'm ashamed of my species

I was I was reading through this thread, I was thinking the same thing. How on earth this majority could look at themselves as anything but absolutely foolish is beyond me.

And veiling it behind the idea of "caring for the skyline..."

just like Lennon said in Imagine.

For some people, the idea of a one world, no fighting world is apparently too terrible to imagine.

Originally posted by niteboy82
For some people, the idea of a one world, no fighting world is apparently too terrible to imagine.

no it is too unrealistic, i defies human nature. Each human is unique so they tend to have differing opinions to eachother, this can create conflict... such is life.

Originally posted by niteboy82
And veiling it behind the idea of "caring for the skyline..

why is this not a legitament complaint?
[edit on 29-11-2009 by purplemonkey]

[edit on 29-11-2009 by purplemonkey]

reply to post by SLAYER69

Moderate Muslim countries allow Churches. So the Swiss are not a moderate Western Country.

Mosques and burqas stir opposition in Europe

Switzerland now counts at least 310,000 Mohammadens, or some 4.6 percent of the total population, and approximately 200 mosques. The Swiss Federation of Islamic Organizations has noted that only four mosques in the country have minarets and none of them feature the call of the muezzin to prayer so as not to violate Switzerland’s strict noise-control laws

So the Swiss have 200 mosques, but only 4 mosques have minarets and no mosques allow the blasting of the call to prayer by the muezzins that I was talking about. They have strict noise codes! Very good!

So the don't allow the tower, or torrents or balconies on the top which probably are considered visual pollution by the Swiss or a least culturally offensive.

The result of this voting was a big fat frigging surprise even for us Swiss people. Nobody would have thought that this legislation had a snowballs chance in hell of being passed.
Also interesting is, not only did the legislation pass, but with a pretty clear voice, too. In polls before the voting there were only about 37% proponents for this initiative, this seems to be a pretty significant difference and I don't know how this came to pass.
Politicians are asking how this could have happened and point their fingers at each other. This doesn't seem to be the whole problem though.

My personal opinion: The muslim community failed to gain the trust of the Swiss people and this fact is displayed in the result of the vote.

This issue might be presented before the European court for human rights in Strassbourg, which could theoretically declare the initiative as void. Anyhow, we will see how this develops. The last word isn't spoken by far.

Someone posted what did it matter where buildings were concerned. I think it's as much a principle. And can I say well done to the Swiss for seeing the writing on the wall.
Here in UK we have a whole load of mini Pakistans which have no intention of integrating. Literally whole cities are being taken over. We get calls to prayer, occasional religious marches taking over main roads and frequent celebratory fireworks. The local politicians are Muslim and often you need Urdu or Punjabi to get a job.
A friend told me how she was the only person on a bus speaking English. Sorry how can this be good? Government and voluntary agencies have of course bent over backwards to ensure their literature is translated into as many languages as possible. At great cost I might add.
An Asian friend told me how they systematically buy out white owned properties and businesses and block potential white buyers.
I've just returned from a new supermarket where the 'World Foods' isle is almost entirely Asian. OK they have to go with the local demographics but lets not call it 'world' eh?
Well done Switzerland.

[edit on 30-11-2009 by unicorn1]

a friend of mine from switzerland feels very embarressed abt his fellow countrymen.
he reported, that mainly people in rural areas with no minaret nor muslim around in miles voted against them, whereas people from urban areas with muslim popoulation and institutions didn't vote against minarets...

makes me think, that it is not abt minarets or muslims, but abt fear and xenophobia.


best,
bertrand

Switzerland is allegedly owned by The Knights Templar making it staunch christian.
What with its neutrality and its secret banks and its central location in Europe, IMHO

Originally posted by shamhat
It's hardly an invasion. The muslim population represents less than 5% of the total population of Switzerland. The orthodox christian population is less than 2%, are they allowed to display the orthodox cross on their churches, sure they are.

key word there "chief" CHRISTIAN *in relation to the orthodoxes* so as they belong to the faith which is embedded in that nation over centuries it is not the same as the muslims

This is not about being PC, it is about all the white christian folks deciding that while they welcome immigrants they do not want them to feel at home or free to practice their religion in the way that the other tax paying citizens of the country are able to.

very racist, picking on the white Swiss, Im sure black and asian swiss also voted no- anyway, stop being a drama queen, Muslims are free to worship, unless of course, a large minaret above the building is the only way they can worship, is this so?

As in they are willing to accept the muslims in their country as long as those muslims stay out of sight and out of mind. Immigration is supported by the government because those immigrants will do the #ty jobs for poor wages and be grateful for it. They contribute to the economy, they should therefore be given the same rights as all other contributors. This isn't progress and Switzerland is far from a beacon of light to the rest of Europe. This is the country that turned away Jews if they couldn't find the money to buy their way in, but they gladly took the gold that was taken out of their teeth when they were dead.

Musn't be that bad a country when 400,000 Muslims decided to move there, eh

Originally posted by rhinoceros
There was a time when the Islamic world was far more progressive and tolerant than the Christian one. For example when muslims were kicked out of Spain and France things got way worse for all non-Christians (especially jews). Islamic world carried the light during the dark ages. Without them almost everything would have been lost. Of course it's a different story now..

Hardly as black and white as that, for crying out loud the Crusades themselves were a response to ISLAMIC expansion, aggression, pillage, domination etc- for sure, some Islamic scholars kept up the teachings of the ancient persians, greeks etc, but it was not BECAUSE of Islam.


Christianity has been through an enlightenment process, Islam has not, and whilst Christianity and it's followers are not perfect, they are light years ahead of Islam- I blame the European elite and establishment who have encouraged immigration, often from Islamic countries, all to try and appease business with supposed cheap labout (the wider social/economic costs of a large separatist minority are incalculable)- they are and have been traitors- introducing large numbers of Muslims to a secular area built out of Christianity will only end in trouble...........

reply to post by SLAYER69

How many Muslim countries [Moderate or Not] do women have the right to vote?
I'm just curious

I think that's a valid question and pertains to the thread.

I antcipate this issue as worsening and manifesting itself as a referrendum that sets a standard for maximum height of structural spires atop buildings of worship, and sets a standard for maximum decibels of calls to worship. Can you imagine? Regulating the sound of church bells along with Muslim calls to worship.

I hope that doesn't happen, and I'll tell you why. I don't think this is an issue of religious descrimination, but an issue of cultural preservation. People in predominantly non-Muslim countries may wish to preserve their cultural identity. I believe they have the right to do so, as well as the right to require immigrants to learn the native language and use it.

I can't imagine moving to a country and not wanting to assimilate into that lifestyle and culture. That wouldn't preclude me from preserving my own imported culture, however I'd consider it disrespectful to my new country to attempt to impose mine upon theirs. I certainly wouldn't expect a right to import my own culture's laws to supercede those of the nation I moved to. That alone, would limit the number of countries I in which I'd be willing to live.

This is a heoric vote by the swiss people and I salute them- history will judge them as true patriots and heroes, standing up to the pathetic elite.

No wonder the British establishment fears referendums, we would have child murderers executed, deportation of illegals, removal from the EU etc etc


They can only ignore the people for so long

Originally posted by bertand cantat
..makes me think, that it is not about minarets or muslims, but about fear and xenophobia.

Well, you can't realy blame the Swiss for the fear part - a police report form England stated that about half of UK mosques are now under extremist,hardline control:

Almost half of Britain’s mosques are under the control of a hardline Islamic sect whose leading preacher loathes Western values and has called on Muslims to “shed blood” for Allah, an investigation by The Times has found.

Riyadh ul Haq, who supports armed jihad and preaches contempt for Jews, Christians and Hindus, is in line to become the spiritual leader of the Deobandi sect in Britain. The ultra-conservative movement, which gave birth to the Taleban in Afghanistan, now runs more than 600 of Britain’s 1,350 mosques, according to a police report seen by The Times.

Seventeen of Britain’s 26 Islamic seminaries are run by Deobandis and they produce 80 per cent of home-trained Muslim clerics. Many had their studies funded by local education authority grants. The sect, which has significant representation on the Muslim Council of Britain, is at its strongest in the towns and cities of the Midlands and northern England.

Figures supplied to The Times by the Lancashire Council of Mosques reveal that 59 of the 75 mosques in five towns – Blackburn, Bolton, Preston, Oldham and Burnley – are Deobandi-run.

A commentator on religious radicalism in Pakistan, where Deobandis wield significant political influence, told The Times that “blind ignorance” on the part of the Government in Britain had allowed the Deobandis to become the dominant voice of Islam in Britain’s mosques.

Khaled Ahmed said:“The UK has been ruined by the puritanism of the Deobandis. You’ve allowed the takeover of the mosques. You can’t run multiculturalism like that, because that’s a way of destroying yourself. In Britain, the Deobandi message has become even more extreme than it is in Pakistan. It’s mind-boggling.”

www.timesonline.co.uk...

reply to post by blueorder

You can just picture them putting up a minaret on the lower newtownards road, Belfast, Bluey,
And the response from the local "hairy faces"
Are you a protestant Muslim or a catholic Muslim ??
LOL