Swiss voters favour minaret ban: exit polls

Originally posted by infinite
Syria provides the same support towards Christian communities too. Jordon has the same policy.

Erm, isn't that the point he was making, countries were Christians predated the Muslims, where historical buildings exist- HOWEVER they would not be financing and encouraging the growth of new Christian cathedrals- the Christian communities in these countries are dwindling, as always happens, once Islam gets a foothold

Saladin, during the Crusades, protected Christian buildings and allowed pilgrimage whilst under Ottoman rule.
[edit on 30-11-2009 by infinite]

That was gracious of him

Originally posted by SLAYER69
Anyone know the % of muslim population in this country?

Supposedly around 5/10 % and growing.


Slayer,

Only half a star here. Estimates of numbers of Muslims in European countries vary widely. As census information is voluntary, it is conceded a large percentage of Muslims either supply "No Religion" or something other than "Muslim" as their faith. Not even sure if it's asked everywhere.

There is a large illegal immigrant population in the more affluent countries in Europe. Many move back and forth for short or longer term jobs and contracts.

As with the number of Mexicans in border states like California and Texas, one can only estimate.

Generally thought the actual Muslim populations in the better off parts of Europe are at least double the census figure - maybe much more.


Mike

Originally posted by mmiichael

Slayer,

Only half a star here. Estimates of numbers of Muslims in European countries vary widely. As census information is voluntary, it is conceded a large percentage of Muslims either supply "No Religion" or something other than "Muslim" as their faith. Not even sure if it's asked everywhere.

There is a large illegal immigrant population in the more affluent countries in Europe. Many move back and forth for short or longer term jobs and contracts.

As with the number of Mexicans in border states like California and Texas, one can only estimate.

Generally thought the actual Muslim populations in the better off parts of Europe are at least double the census figure - maybe much more.


Mike

exactly Mike, many European countries are well on the way to "tipping" point, and one can only ponder the problems that will follow.............

[edit on 30-11-2009 by blueorder]

Originally posted by mmiichael


Slayer,

Only half a star here. Estimates of numbers of Muslims in European countries vary widely. As census information is voluntary, it is conceded a large percentage of Muslims either supply "No Religion" or something other than "Muslim" as their faith. Not even sure if it's asked everywhere.


Mike

Thanks.

I have no doubt that it varies by country. I was referring to Switzerland. I believe they gave that figure.

Again I have no issues with Muslims. I do however support the Swiss for voting on the issue rather than just simply passing a law.

The People have spoken.

Good for them

[edit on 30-11-2009 by SLAYER69]

Originally posted by infinite

Vank Cathedral's maintenance and repairs are financed by the Islamic Republic of Iran. Yes, a Islamic nation providing financial aid to Christian buildings. Syria provides the same support towards Christian communities too. Jordon has the same policy.

Saladin, during the Crusades, protected Christian buildings and allowed pilgrimage whilst under Ottoman rule.

I find in these discussion an incredible reliance on anecdotal evidence. For every anecdotal example of Muslim tolerance and support of Christians there are probably a thousand cases of persecution and intolerance.

Also reliance on historical precedents start becoming absurd. Saladin? born 1137 - died 1193.

Check your calendar. It's 2009.

What happened a millenium ago has little bearing on today.


Since Saladin's time, nearly a thousand years ago, many things have changed.

They discovered this continent called America where a lot of people live now. Slavery is illegal. Women no longer are forced to live at a secondary tier, have equal rights and work opportunities. Institutional centralized religion is no longer a dominating political power. Civilized societies now choose their leaders instead of inheriting them. Universal literacy and education exists in advanced cultures. There was something called the Industrial Revolution which meant the entire population is now not dependent on an aristocracy controlled land owning system. The feudal system of agrarian base economies and fealty died hundreds of years ago.

Muslims now occupy and control 99% of the Middle East. Jews and Christians are barely tolerated in most countries, and totally prohibited from entry in many.

Many of the vestiges of more primitive times in Europe are still alive and flourishing in the Middle East. Governments that are primarily royal families, lack of basic rights for all inhabitants, lack of extended rights to women, lack of industrialization to employ mass populations, inadequate agriculture reforms, lack of universally enforceable legal systems, unavailability of non-religious higher education. And on and on and on.

There is a move among Muslims to try and reinstate the fondly recalled Caliphate of a thousand years ago. Unfortunately it engenders undoing
most of the advances made by the progressive liberalized Christian/Judaic West.


M


[edit on 30-11-2009 by mmiichael]

reply to post by SLAYER69

The People have spoken.

Good for them

The people have voted for a discriminatory law out of fear that stems from religious and/or perceived cultural differences.

In your support of that act, are you implying that such fears are legitimate reasons for borders/boundaries, and that people of specific faiths should each live in their own specific country? Or maybe its OK to have different religions within a country, but members of the primary one get privileges that are unique to them; others are 2nd class and have to put up with limits?

That seems to be the logical extension of your praise. You are basically saying, the original inhabitants of any territory should have privileges or powers over any who come later. You believe in a two class society. You do not believe in equality for all citizens.

Am I reading you wrong? Or not?

Originally posted by wayno
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

The People have spoken.

Good for them

The people have voted for a discriminatory law out of fear that stems from religious and/or perceived cultural differences.

In your support of that act, are you implying that such fears are legitimate reasons for borders/boundaries, and that people of specific faiths should each live in their own specific country? Or maybe its OK to have different religions within a country, but members of the primary one get privileges that are unique to them; others are 2nd class and have to put up with limits?

That seems to be the logical extension of your praise. You are basically saying, the original inhabitants of any territory should have privileges or powers over any who come later. You believe in a two class society. You do not believe in equality for all citizens.

Am I reading you wrong? Or not?

Oh BS. This is not an act of discrimination. Nor the vote one of fear.
If Islam doesn't believe in equality then why should a democracy believe in Islam?
Islam does not accept all men as equal. In Islam anyone other than a muslim is inferior.

[edit on 30-11-2009 by JJay55]

Originally posted by niteboy82
How on earth this majority could look at themselves as anything but absolutely foolish is beyond me.

And veiling it behind the idea of "caring for the skyline..."

Before you go on beating on your self-righteous drum, let me ask you how well you know the Swiss nation? I actually don't, though I spent quite some time living in Switzerland (and that's where I'm typing this now).

If you want to build a house in a neighborhood, on the land you already own, you are required to erect a pole with a cross bar, representing the height of the projected building. Neighbors have a month to grieve it if they simply don't like the height as it spoils the view etc.

I'm sorry but that's how democracy works. If a commune (a very Swiss term) decides they don't want you, you'll never get naturalized as a citizen. Compare that to our sick US system...

I was riding a bus in Geneva today and saw the signs about the minarets.
The people have spoken.

Good for them but might be too late.

Originally posted by jam321

Would a Muslim country allow steeples with crosses across their landscape?

Not to play Devil's advocate here, but is that the way you want freedom of religion to go?

Just because one nation deny's full freedom of worship, do you want to be just like them? Does that make you better?

reply to post by mmiichael

here is a move among Muslims to try and reinstate the fondly recalled Caliphate of a thousand years ago. Unfortunately it engenders undoing
most of the advances made by the progressive liberalized Christian/Judaic West.

Then I guess you (figuratively speaking) have a delemna, in how to remain progressive and advanced while imposing restrictions and limitations on a whole religion/culture, based on the behaviour of only extremists within it.

It sounds kind of double talk to me. If you do the same kind of discriminatory thing to people not of the majority, how does this make you (us) any better than the ones you are so critical of?

The problem is the ones doing the violence; not the whole religion or culture they are a part of.

[edit on 11/30/2009 by wayno]

Originally posted by wayno
reply to post by mmiichael

 

here is a move among Muslims to try and reinstate the fondly recalled Caliphate of a thousand years ago. Unfortunately it engenders undoing
most of the advances made by the progressive liberalized Christian/Judaic West.

Then I guess you (figuratively speaking) have a delemna, in how to remain progressive and advanced while imposing restrictions and limitations on a whole religion/culture, based on the behaviour of only extremists within it.

Kind of difficult to remain "progressive and advanced" while the very fabric of your nations and cultures are under assault by a religion that's true goal is to return the world to way it was in the 7th century AD.

reply to post by JJay55

If Islam doesn't believe in equality then why should a democracy believe in Islam?
Islam does not accept all men as equal. In Islam anyone other than a muslim is inferior.

Again, you are making sweeping generalizations about Islam based on the way only some practitioners interpret it. I don't think there is any organized religion out there that hasn't had it's hands bloody at some point.

The Christian religions have seen some reform; and do not for the most part practice their more hateful and intolerant beliefs anymore. I would venture to state that the same applies in the way that the vast majority of Muslims around the world practice their faith.

I can only speak personally of the ones who live in my community. There are thousands of them. They are peaceful and contributing members of this community. Not one has yet tried to tell me how to live my life. Only the Christian evangelists do that!

reply to post by mmiichael


"Women no longer are forced to live at a secondary tier" unless of course you live in a muslim country.

if the swiss supreme court overturns the vote on banning minarets, there should be hell to pay. i dont see how you could overturn such a thing. the people voted, a majority doesnt want minarets. it should be respected otherwise they arent a true democracy.

reply to post by wayno

I'm offended.

reply to post by centurion1211

Kind of difficult to remain "progressive and advanced" while the very fabric of your nations and cultures are under assault by a religion that's true goal is to return the world to way it was in the 7th century AD.

Yes, it surely is difficult.

Just mimicking the regressive policies of the countries that concern you would not be the way to go. That would surely defeat the value of being progressive. Anytime you set up an "us and them" mentality; then you've lost it.

I maintain that as we are a society based on laws, we have to use those laws to address behaviours that are a concern. I don't want anyone, Muslim or Christian telling me how to live my life; especially when their orders are based on religion. I won't tolerate it and no-one should, but discriminating against a group of people based on their religion, even if you don't like it, is wrong. Period.

I see muslim bashers making the most out of this thread.

I just want to ask one simple question.

Why did the europeans allow the muslims to immigrate to their countries when they fully knew what islam was all about?

Surely they weren't ignorant of hundreds of years of islamic rule in other countries right?

The influence of right wingers seems to be growing in europe and If things carry on like this i can see alot more kosovo and chechnya scenarios rising ahead.

Keeping in mind that every 1 in 4 human that exists on this planet is a muslim.

Originally posted by merkava
I see muslim bashers making the most out of this thread.

I just want to ask one simple question.

Why did the europeans allow the muslims to immigrate to their countries when they fully knew what islam was all about?

Surely they weren't ignorant of hundreds of years of islamic rule in other countries right?

The influence of right wingers seems to be growing in europe and If things carry on like this i can see alot more kosovo and chechnya scenarios rising ahead.

Keeping in mind that every 1 in 4 human that exists on this planet is a muslim.

www.timesonline.co.uk...

I can only speak from experience here in the UK, although I have served in the military in a few muslim countires and in Germany where they have immigration issues with Turks

I am glad that the Swiss people have been given an option for the direction of their communities and lifestyle. YES THEIR communities.

the above link proves what deceit and depths our UK government is prepared to go to change the social fabric and cohesion of the very country they are supposed to represent. This post is predominantly about choice. A choice that should be given to the people, but here in the UK it clearly has not, at least for the past 14 years.

So I applaud the Swiss for the strength to slow down the rate of change. This is not racist or discriminatory, it is just a nation at long last denying the muticultural myth that everyone gets along just fine.

Multiculturalism is a short term fix for migrants to move in and out of an area, changing it forever, to the detriment of the long term history, values and culture of the existing populous.

Originally posted by merkava
I see muslim bashers making the most out of this thread.

I just want to ask one simple question.

Why did the europeans allow the muslims to immigrate to their countries when they fully knew what islam was all about?

Surely they weren't ignorant of hundreds of years of islamic rule in other countries right?

The influence of right wingers seems to be growing in europe and If things carry on like this i can see alot more kosovo and chechnya scenarios rising ahead.

When Muslims came to Western countries initially they showed they understood and respected the unwritten rules of immigration. Things were done differently and everyone was expected to do their best to conform to basic rules and norms that were integral to the society.

A critical mass has developed in many countries and the new attitude is unacceptance and even outright hostility to the host country.

This is what is intensely disliked, the antagonistic attitude, not the fact that they are Muslims.

You seem to share the same resentment and threatening stance.

M

Originally posted by wayno
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

The People have spoken.

Good for them

The people have voted for a discriminatory law out of fear that stems from religious and/or perceived cultural differences.


Am I reading you wrong? Or not?

The Swiss chose to preserve their heritage. They didnt vote to ban the practice of a religion. Try not to read anymore into that. You are judging them with your version or morality.