Obama Approval for Healthcare Reform Falls Fast !!!

Here is one point.

Take all the american troops from europe and japan and bring them home, and if 1 soldier costs 1million a year, how much do you save on that alone.

See its not too hard, japan and europe, do not need americans on there lands, so why are they there?

On this poll, i do not think polls mean anything, i did not when obama last week mentioned them, as we see how asia, reacted to americans now, not any different.

Polls for me mean nothing.

Originally posted by HotSauce
reply to post by Seiko

 

If you couldn't pay your bills and lived under a mountain of debt, would you run out and put all of your neighbors and families heathcare costs on your credit card? If so, how long do you think that would last?

[edit on 23-11-2009 by HotSauce]

They are not putting it on their credit cards. They are putting it on ours.

reply to post by Seiko


My apologies for misunderstanding.. I guess I see your point but how would money not go to some form of insurace unless you are promoting that we actually each pay our own healtcare expenses directly.

reply to post by ProfEmeritus


I can only agree. We've borrowed past our load and devalued our own currency. I'm not even sure if we can recover fully.

My point was, if we're going to spend money we should spend it on health care and not health insurance. We all know that's not going to happen, regardless of what the problem is they're going to find a way to make companies richer and use middle men that could easily be excised.

This is the failure in our politicians. This is why the poll numbers are falling so badly, we're aware we're screwed here, and we know it's not even going to help the problem. The hold outs are those that think if this passes the next round can make it better, they see this as a foot in the door legislation toward real health care. I disagree, if we do this it will lock in the insurance companies forever as business partners with the government, and that will eventually bankrupt any true reform we try to do.

The government will always find a way to tax us, it's how they operate simplistically put. I'm just for demanding they do things that help us, and not multinational corporations. I realize it's not easy, and the very system is stacked against them doing this, but I have the right to say we should do things that actually help the common people. That's just how I see it.

reply to post by ProfEmeritus


You hit the nail on the head. Hence Obama's recent trip to Asia and China more specifically. Our nation's used car salesman was on a trip to shore up the dollar long enough to get more Chinese loans. I can only imagine what was discussed behind closed doors.

Originally posted by HotSauce
reply to post by Seiko

 

Lets skip the healthcare all together and focus on the foundation of the nation.

1. We need to focus on being competitive in the global marketplace
2. We need to use less foreign oil... Drill baby drill!
3. If we are going to increases taxes then they MUST be used to pay down the debt.
4. Government and the "services" it provideds must be scaled down drastically, until the debt is paid off.

Then maybe when we get our house in order we can look at ways to extend coverage to more people. If you couldn't pay your bills and lived under a mountain of debt, would you run out and put all of your neighbors and families heathcare costs on your credit card? If so, how long do you think that would last?

[edit on 23-11-2009 by HotSauce]

Well, i think you're onto something with #3.
This is the sneaky part. The current bill has the huge tax next year BUT
nothing kicks in until years later. This just makes the deficit look not
so bad.
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Good luck with #4.
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Drill baby drill sounds like a great way to create high paying jobs.
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I wonder what the ObamaCare approval number will be
around December 24,2009?

reply to post by Seiko

I realize it's not easy, and the very system is stacked against them doing this, but I have the right to say we should do things that actually help the common people.

Very good post... I am just saying that the very best thing we can do to help the common people is to create an environment where companies will choose to locate here rather than China, and you cannot do that by increasing taxes and bloated government programs and paying 700bilion a year (and growing exponentially) on interest on the debt.

On the other hand you do have a right to voice your ideas and I support you in that.

I just found this article concerning the US and bankruptcy:

inflationdata.com...

Is the United States Bankrupt?

By Jon Herring

There are so many headwinds and cross currents in the market today, it is all but impossible to predict what will happen in the short term. There is too much volatility and noise. So, it pays to keep your eyes on the horizon, focused on the long term and the biggest trends.

Today, I want to tell about the biggest of all possible financial trends: the eventual bankruptcy of the United States government. Or should I say the existing bankruptcy of the U.S. government?

The United States government is facing an impending fiscal crisis. Former Comptroller General David Walker calls it a “cancer growing from within.” And the wheels for this were already set in motion well before the financial crisis. With ongoing wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, a costly stimulus package and falling tax receipts, the U.S. was already neck deep in debt.

A Trillion Dollar Deficit?

Even before the bailouts, the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) projected that the 2009 federal deficit would be nearly $482 billion. Since then however, our government has jacked up spending by the trillions. In just a few months, we have already charted a course to triple that deficit. Some experts even suggest the 2009 deficit could be as high as $2 trillion!

But, believe it or not, this is just a drop in the bucket compared to the big picture

The True Scope of America’s Fiscal Problem

Richard Fisher is the CEO of the Dallas Federal Reserve Bank and a member of the Federal Open Market Committee (FOMC), which sets interest rate policy. In a speech in May of this year, he stated that the total U.S. debt – including Medicare and Social Security – is more than $99 TRILLION!

Along the same lines, Laurence Kotlikoff, a Boston University economist, suggests that the “fiscal gap” – which is the difference between the number above and what we could reasonably expect to collect – is $66 trillion.

That is the definition of bankruptcy. It is just a matter of time. The scope and impact of our liabilities are stunning. But let’s play devil’s advocate and consider where this kind of money might come from.

How can we possibly meet our obligations to retirees… as well as service our debt to foreign governments… and still operate our own government?

It Won’t Come from Cuts in Spending

Let’s listen in on Fisher’s speech and consider what kind of spending cuts we would have to make to close the gap on what we owe:

“To fully fund our nation’s entitlement programs would be to cut discretionary spending by 97 percent. But hold on. That discretionary spending includes defense and national security, education, the environment and many other areas, not just those controversial earmarks that make the evening news. All of them would have to be cut—almost eliminated—to tackle this problem through discretionary spending.”

So, just to meet our current and future obligations, we would have to virtually clear out Washington, D.C. And these changes would have to be made to perpetuity. Now, Ron Paul might have cut government back to its constitutionally mandated functions, but don’t expect anyone else in Washington to even consider the notion. Congress has shown that it has NO moral regard for the long term economic viability of our country.

It Won’t Come from Tax Increases

Even if we did cut the government back to the bare minimum (which we won’t), that still wouldn’t solve the problem. We would also have to raise taxes. By how much? Back to Richard Fisher:

“Similarly on the taxation side, income tax revenue would have to rise 68 percent and remain that high forever. Remember, though, I said tax revenue, not tax rates. Who knows how much individual and corporate tax rates would have to change to increase revenue by 68 percent?”

We already don’t collect enough tax revenues to pay the government's budget. And with a recession taking hold and a depression on the horizon, where are the tax revenues going to come from? Taxation is simply not an option for this kind of money.

We Can’t Borrow it from Ourselves

During World War II, we borrowed the money we needed from ourselves. But Americans had a high savings rate then. This is no longer true. Most Americans are upside down, with credit cards, mortgages, cars and other loans… not to mention growing unemployment.

It Won’t Come from Foreigners

For many, many years, the U.S. government has been able to pay for anything and everything we wanted to by borrowing the funds from other countries. We didn’t even pay for the Iraq war… it has all been borrowed money. But other countries are beginning to balk, and for a variety of reasons.

For one thing, the countries that do have reserves to lend us are turning their attention inward. Just this week, China began to shift its policy away from plowing reserves into forex and instead is investing internally (the Chinese government announced more than a half a trillion-dollar internal stimulus package this week).

This is BAD news for the U.S. government bond market. Just as America’s spending goes parabolic and we need to sell more debt than ever, the biggest buyer just left the trading floor.

Increases in spending and liabilities along with decreases in foreign lending equals a recipe for disaster.

So, where will the money come from?

This is a job for the printing press.

While we are certainly facing deflation in the near term and a very choppy market, the groundwork has been laid for hyperinflation, soaring interest rates and exploding gold and silver prices. So forget about the short term cross currents, and focus on the long term trends you can bank on.

This is indeed a sobering view of the US economy.

reply to post by HotSauce


I see this issue as tied to jobs and our economic recovery. I believe real health care would take burdens off of small business which can lead to more jobs.

Fining (taxing) the poor and small business is going to do the exact opposite and if this passes we'll see a loss of jobs. The burden this will create is going to destroy middle america. It will create more poor people and the economic divide will be spread further apart.

I see real health care as freeing us, this is where you and I have disagreed a lot. When your health care is tied to your job, they own you, they control you.

reply to post by Seiko


You know we actualy agree.. We probably just go to the same conclusion from opposite ends of the spectrum. I don't think any business shoud be taxed or forced to pay for your healtcare. Chances are its not their fault you are obese, smoke, drink too much, or have cancer. Healthcare should be a personal responsibility.

You are right it does give them control over you to a degree and it someways it should. We all know nothing is really free in this world.

If people woud just save a little for their own doctors visits etc.. We could get way cheaper insurance for catastrophic issues.

Even though it's not precisely the topic, there are many posts offering alternatives to the travesty known as "Obamacare". I would like to address those.

There is a difference between "Healthcare" for all and "Health Insurance" for all.

What I see with Obamacare is that it will require people to obtain health insurance, those who can't afford it will be subsidized, insurance companies will be required to accept anybody, regardless of their health conditions. One would think, and rightly so, that this will cause a huge financial strain on the system. The Obamacare solution to this is in the requirement that everyone purchase coverage, meaning that young and healthy people will be funding the pool for those with pre-existing conditions who are now suddenly eligible.

What Obamacare FAILS to do, is address the insane cost of healthcare. It merely forces everyone to obtain health insurance and continues to pay the providers their grossly inflated price of services. This is hardly progress.

~Case in Point... ME
I was in the hospital for an overnight stay on Nov. 8th 2009. During the night I was experiencing a terrible headache and I complained to the CNA on duty. I was not allowed to have the ibuprofen I requested so I was given Tylenol.

When I received my itemized bill (which I had to specially request) it listed Tylenol at $12.93. That's over $6 dollars per pill!

These outlandish prices are ignored by Obamacare, and if you ask me, a little (or a lot of) federal pressure to reign in this runaway price gouging would go a long way.

I'm all for some form of healthcare for everyone but Obamacare fails miserably, and will end up costing us far more than it's worth, and could ultimately irreparably damage our economy. All the while allowing Tylenol to sell for $6 dollars a pill.

Of course I haven't read the entire bill, but neither have any of our senators, I'm not trying to be divisive, and if someone wan't to say something good about Obamacare I'll gladly listen but from what I know so far if it passes it will have a hugely negative impact.

Bottom line: Unless major action is taken that address or even criminalizes the unchecked price inflating and waste in the healthcare system. We The People are doomed! No matter how much we are forced to pay into the healthcare system.

reply to post by AlienChaser


Well said, my friend. Health Insurance is NOT Health Care. It is in many cases an obstacle to health care. Health care should be direct, with no one between the patient and the doctor. When I was growing up, our family had no such thing as health insurance. We were sick, and our doctor came to our house, prescribed medicine, and then called back in a few days to see if we were getting better.

Many of the "advances" today" are nothing more than illusory. In fact, some, such as flu vaccines, may do more harm than good. Poor nutrition and lack of exercise are responsible for many of our illnesses today. Although poverty certainly is a factor, the fact remains that many of the healthiest foods are indeed the cheapest, and exercise is free.

Unfortunately, taking prescription drugs seems to let people think that they can ignore good nutrition and exercise.

reply to post by ProfEmeritus

Well said, my friend. Health Insurance is NOT Health Care. It is in many cases an obstacle to health care. Health care should be direct, with no one between the patient and the doctor.

Absolutely Prof!!!!!!! People always seem to get them mixed up. Health insurance companies do not provide medical service...doctors and nurses do. CEO's and stockholders of health insurance co.'s are making money off of the misfortune of others. I'm all for doctors making their money...they should...although I hope that's not the only reason they are in the medical field.

That's one reason I don't understand why people are standing up for the insurance companies. They are nothing but a bank. They push imaginary numbers around in a computer...and basically one's stature in society decides how great their health care will be.

I believe in the Constitution. I believe in small government...but I believe all people have the right to live and all should have that opportunity...provided they are legal citizens.

No person....I don't care what ideology or background they come from...should ever support ANY BILL that is 2000 pages. I don't care what it is or what is in the bill itself.

Yet so many will.....without knowing much of anything that is in it...and most of them knowing that most politicians in washington are corrupted..yet they are willing to trust them with their healthcare and the direction it is going to.

It's absurd and I hope that Liberals think about and read all details of what they are supporting.

reply to post by ProfEmeritus

Unfortunately, taking prescription drugs seems to let people think that they can ignore good nutrition and exercise.

So average Joe stares at a monitor while sitting at a desk all day, he is somewhat overweight and very out of shape. Joe gets sick and takes his insurance card to the doctor. The doctor in turn looks him over and suggests to try this new pill that is currently advertising on TV, which Joe spends his free time staring at. The doctor bills Joe a highly inflated fee and Joe in turn files a claim with his health insurance. Thus completes the circle.

They're ALL in on it.

Health insurance companies,
The healthcare syndicate,
Big pharma.

It's a revolving door and every exit leads to a greedy and corrupted conglomerate whose only goal is to elicit profit from Joe. These entities work together and for each other.

Obamacare does nothing to change this, and so far as I can tell actually makes it BIGGER in so far as it forces people who would otherwise not have insurance to obtain it under penalty of law. Which will certainly result in those people taking advantage by visiting a doctor when one is not required, just because they can.

Another reason that Obamacare will feed this cyclical fire is the requirement that insurance companies must accept everyone regardless of health, this means that millions of sick people with pre-existing conditions will flood into the healthcare system and into the money hungry and waiting arms of the revolving door cycle.

“Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power” ~Benito Mussolini

Financial = Check
Automotive = Check
Healthcare = Next




[edit on 11/24/2009 by AlienChaser]

reply to post by AlienChaser

Financial = Check
Automotive = Check
Healthcare = Next

Actually, Healthcare is already a huge check, via Medicaid and Medicare. It will, of course, become a humongous check once everyone is under their control, and CONTROL is the operative word. Control a person's health, and you control the person.