Deut 25:2-3: Bible demands 40 lashes for sinning believers!!!, page 1
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reply posted on 15-11-2009 @ 09:11 PM by Seiko
reply to post by halfoldman



For the old testament this is actually fairly mild. 40 lashes would be better then stoned to death I guess.

Jesus said their hearts were hard.


reply posted on 15-11-2009 @ 09:16 PM by halfoldman
reply to post by Seiko


Either transgressing evangelists take 40 lashes on the bared back, or we shall know them as fakes.



reply posted on 15-11-2009 @ 09:34 PM by Selahobed
Those punishments were there to show the severity of sin in G-ds eyes; if you do this, you die, if you do that you die. In other words it was a light to show what sin is, and the punishments "in the flesh" were an example of what would happen to you "in the spirit", that the spirit that sins shall die. Severe yes, but the eternal ramifications are even more severe.
The law not only shone a light on to what sin is, but also acted as a band aid that put a block on peoples behaviour so that they would not go the way of the other ancient civilisations where all that is left of them is a few pots and coins, dug up by archeologists. The fact the the jews are still a people and a nation today is a pure testiment to the band aid that the law was. The 10 commandements however are different to the law in terms of the law shows what sin is, but the commandments keep its effects at bay. The commandments boil down, love G-d, love each other.
As stated, the law was a band aid, but it also pointed to the permanant cure that came through Yeshua's attonement on the cross.
The law was wrote on stone tablets, hence temporary and breakable, but throgh Yeshua the commandments are written on our hearts through the Holy Spirit. Its a bit like G-d downloading Himself into you, taking away the corrupted information, and implanting healthy information. And that combined with Yeshua's blood attonement, His blood stands in your defence like your immune system, and stops you being reinfected by the virus of sin.
The wages of sin is death. Life comes through the Son., the cure to sin.


reply posted on 15-11-2009 @ 09:36 PM by JohnPhoenix
reply to post by halfoldman



TROUBLESHOOTER nailed you on that one. I am a person who studies the bible and I can easily see where your argument breaks down. Star for TS !

( I'll never forget that day, Moses said to the people, "I give you these fifteen CRASH! - Ten.. Ten Commandants!" ) Kidding!





[edit on 15-11-2009 by JohnPhoenix]


reply posted on 15-11-2009 @ 09:55 PM by halfoldman
Originally posted by Selahobed
Those punishments were there to show the severity of sin in G-ds eyes; if you do this, you die, if you do that you die. In other words it was a light to show what sin is, and the punishments "in the flesh" were an example of what would happen to you "in the spirit", that the spirit that sins shall die. Severe yes, but the eternal ramifications are even more severe.
The law not only shone a light on to what sin is, but also acted as a band aid that put a block on peoples behaviour so that they would not go the way of the other ancient civilisations where all that is left of them is a few pots and coins, dug up by archeologists. The fact the the jews are still a people and a nation today is a pure testiment to the band aid that the law was. The 10 commandements however are different to the law in terms of the law shows what sin is, but the commandments keep its effects at bay. The commandments boil down, love G-d, love each other.
As stated, the law was a band aid, but it also pointed to the permanant cure that came through Yeshua's attonement on the cross.
The law was wrote on stone tablets, hence temporary and breakable, but throgh Yeshua the commandments are written on our hearts through the Holy Spirit. Its a bit like G-d downloading Himself into you, taking away the corrupted information, and implanting healthy information. And that combined with Yeshua's blood attonement, His blood stands in your defence like your immune system, and stops you being reinfected by the virus of sin.
The wages of sin is death. Life comes through the Son., the cure to sin.


A nice extrapolation. However, at points I don't know where you get any of this at all? Whether all Jews today are the Biblical tribes is another story: consider that the Hassidics believe in reincarnation (like me), and none of this "hell" softens our "hell' in the after-life idea. That is actually very Islamic. The Koran teaches that lashes on earth soften the punishment in the afterlife. You are teaching Islam!
Band-aids, immune systems, "healthy information" - are you a nurse?
My entanglement is with normal Christians who use the Old Testament literally when it suits them (against homosexuality), but not when tradition prohibits it (the real Sabbath, not eating shellfish, polygamy, concubines).
Any evangelist who has sinned should either drop the entire Old Testament, or submit to 40 lashes in public!!!!


reply posted on 15-11-2009 @ 10:15 PM by Selahobed
reply to post by halfoldman



No im not a nurse, just using metaphors to get my point across.
The law was meant to be harsh and impossible to keep. Basically it was meant to make you "despair" at trying to "save" your self, because in the end of the day, if the whole worlds population had been given the law, there would be no flipping animals left with which you would have to sacrifice to atone for your sins!
Like G-d showed abraham when he was told to sacrifice his son, and G-d stopped him, he wasnt testing him but showing him his plan; that G-d would provide His own sacrifice, which in this occassion He also did by a lamb that was stuck by its horns in some thorns. A bit like Yeshua, being the Lamb of G-d, who also had a crown of thorns...
Yeshua took the whole law on Himself; from having a dubious birth (a bastard cannot enter the assmbley of israel) to "cursed is He who dies on a tree," which i guess they would have been confused about because crucifiction had not even been invented yet! So from begining to end, Yeshua took the whole law of sin on Himself, thus fullfilling the Law. He also amplified the law too in His saying which was a lot harsher than anything in the OT! E.g. "It is said, 'though shall not commit murder,' BUT I SAY if you have hatred for you brother, then you have already commited murder in your heart." Yeshua is a lot tougher on sin than the law, because the law is works based. Yeshua judges your heart, not your actions! Tougher indeed! And another example of making you despair of trying to save yourself.

Edit to add: I cant stand those christians who bash everyone either. Who condem homosexuality, then comit adultery, running off with someone elses wife/husband. In G-ds eyes they are both the same, sin is sin. We are called to love folks, and not to judge them. No amount of righteousness was ever produced through condemnation.

[edit on 103030p://f27Sunday by Selahobed]



reply posted on 18-11-2009 @ 04:36 AM by halfoldman
reply to post by Selahobed


firstly, I think I came on a bit strongly, and my apologies for that. The abuse of children based on the Old Testament has just always irked me.
It is difficult to define "believers" in any religion, since there are so many views and factions.
I think you have made your position quite clear: it is not acceptable to selectively bash anyone with the OT. You put the OT into a historical context that makes sense to you (although many would consider it evangelical revisionism), and well done.
I was also hoping to hear from those Christians who do justify, particularly corporal punishment, according to the OT.
The references do not end with the Biblical tribes. In the days of slavery in Cape Town (South Africa) slaves could be sentenced to 39 lashes. The fear was that if one lash was wrongly counted over 40, then the curse of God rested on the person performing the lashing - hence 39 lashes were meant to prevent the human error of an extra lash. So the tract was taken very literally, and propably may still be in other Abrahamic faiths.
It probably fell into disuse with the general banning of adult judicial and penal flogging (in the US possibly as late as the 1960s?).


reply posted on 18-11-2009 @ 04:44 AM by halfoldman
reply to post by Selahobed


Incidentally, the tract makes me wonder on the significance of the number forty throughout the Bible, apart from the 40 lashes, we have 40 years of wandering in the desert and Jesus spending 40 days in the wilderness.


reply posted on 18-11-2009 @ 06:36 AM by PSUSA
Originally posted by halfoldman

My entanglement is with normal Christians who use the Old Testament literally when it suits them (against homosexuality), but not when tradition prohibits it (the real Sabbath, not eating shellfish, polygamy, concubines).
Any evangelist who has sinned should either drop the entire Old Testament, or submit to 40 lashes in public!!!!


They also use the NT literally when it suits them. That is just as damaging.

IMHO christians have a tendency to do exactly what you claim they do.
The OT is good in that there is a lot of wisdom there. Proverbs is my favorite. But there are also some things (laws) that simply do not apply today. Those that focus on these things always have an agenda.
That agenda is "do as I say, not as I do". Like Ted Haggard for example.

THe church is a mess.

2 Peter 2:2 KJV
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of .

That is absolutely 100% true. It is a picture perfect fit for what we see today.
You can see it in the world, and right here on this board.


I was also hoping to hear from those Christians who do justify, particularly corporal punishment, according to the OT.


Corporal punishment does not equal child abuse. You do not beat the crap out of a kid when punishing them. Spare the rod and spoil the child is just as true today as it was back then. Look at the way kids are now. It's not good. Kids have to know that there are painful consequences. But the pain is temporary and never inflicted in hate.

A good spanking early sure beats a prison sentence later. Not to mention the person(s) that the spoiled kid victimized. That kind of pain can last a lifetime.



[edit on 18/11/09 by PSUSA]


reply posted on 18-11-2009 @ 06:48 AM by oliveoil
reply to post by PSUSA



They also use the NT literally when it suits them. That is just as damaging.

IMHO christians have a tendency to do exactly what you claim they do.

THe church is a mess.


Theres always a few bad apples in every group.

Could you please be little more specific as to whom you are speaking of,as to what denomination?


reply posted on 18-11-2009 @ 07:51 AM by PSUSA
reply to post by oliveoil





Relax big guy,


I am .
Don't mistake written bluntness for rudeness. It's a common problem on boards. I don't like to write long flowery posts if I can condense things and get my point across.


The reason I ask is because there is a difference between organized religion and simply being a adherent of Christ.


Agreed.


With regards to the many, many, many contradictions in the Bible not everyone will agree unanimously. The Bible is not so black and white.


What contradictions? If you mean contradictions in the Bible, I agree with you. If you mean contradictions in scripture, I disagree. A lot of the contradictions are the result of poor or inconsistent translating.

The thing is, entire denominations build their doctrines on these inconsistencies and poor translations to the practical exclusion of everything else.


reply posted on 18-11-2009 @ 08:15 AM by oliveoil
reply to post by PSUSA



What contradictions? If you mean contradictions in the Bible, I agree with you. If you mean contradictions in scripture, I disagree. A lot of the contradictions are the result of poor or inconsistent translating.


Heres a clear example of contradictory scripture.

In James 23:14-26 James appears to be saying that salvation is by works, However Paul teaches it to be by grace Rom 4:5 titus 3:5-7 eph 2:8-9

Which one is it?
The Bible is riddled with these little but HUGE contradictions.
This is why there is many different views.

The thing is, entire denominations build their doctrines on these inconsistencies and poor translations to the practical exclusion of everything else.


We are in agreement. This is the reason I do not follow organized religion.
My denomination is the denomination of me.


[edit on 18-11-2009 by oliveoil]


reply posted on 24-11-2009 @ 05:26 PM by halfoldman
reply to post by PSUSA


Paradoxically, it seems clear that there are non-religious and religious arguments for beating children.
How do we however define "childhood", and why should adults not receive corporal punishment?
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