Memoirs of Hitler aide could finally end Holocaust claims

let me just say






hitler knew what was going on...he was just messed up towards the end

Many people disagree on this to the point of becoming emotionally distraught and allow their emotions to then dictate their reactions to the subject.

The actual most compelling evidence suggests that what Nazi Germany had was a very extensive system of harsh labor camps. Not much unlike the Russian Gulag System.

Political enemies of the State were sent to them for labor. It was harsh labor and harsh living conditions that in part were designed to be so harsh that people were in too weakened of a physical state to resist or escape but rather instead to barely be able to perform forced labor. Many people perished from their labors some of them dangerous, no different than how the Chinese perished doing dangerous labor building American railroads or children perished doing dangerous factory labor in places like London and New York. Many people died of disease brought on by a purposefully engineered low calorie diet to keep them from thinking effectively and being too dexterous so they could not escape or resist. Many people were incapable of work and were exterminated when they were deemed to be a burden to the State instead of an asset to the State as a result of that.

People meant to be killed were killed on the spot at their points of capture. Trenches were dug; people were lined up and murdered in cold blood. People meant to labor were sent to the camps. The camp would then further decide who was capable of and who wasn’t capable of labor. Those deemed to have no value were exterminated; those deemed to have a value were used for their labor as long as the conditions they labored in allowed them to. At the point that effort killed them, or they could no longer put in that effort they were exterminated.

Not because they were Jewish, Gypsies, Slavs, Bolsheviks, Dissidents or Homosexuals but because they no longer had any value to the State and now became a burden on it. In each case it was politics, the politics of a group and their lifestyle that made them enemies of the state. It was not because they were Jewish; it was because of Jewish politics. Jewish politics that ran contrary to the state and many people have a hard time comprehending that because much of the between the Wars History that transpired between World War I and II has been altered or erased.

Today we still haven’t learned the lessons of this. Zionists will be the first to tell you if you don’t agree with Israel or Zionist politics you are anti-Semitic. This is universally accepted as being true amongst the majority of Israelis, Zionists, and Jews. The reality is they are in fact not just a religious entity but a political entity and their Post War cohesiveness as a political force is more or less identical to their prewar cohesiveness as a political force. It is entirely plausible therefore that they were singled out politically and not religiously just as the other groups forced into labor were also deemed enemies of the State for their politics and lifestyle.

It is a two sided coin, and a dual edged sword. Fascist and murderous regimes are equally as dangerous as rigid political bodies where membership means absolutely toeing a party line. Jewish politics is all about toeing the party line when it comes to the over all body politic.
Those who actually have read the real history between the wars which in my humble opinion can only be found in Newspaper archives published and written during that period would be more aware of this than those who have only read post war history written by the victors.

The Nazi’s State’s actions were brutal, ruthless and despicable, but very much in step with what humans of all nationalities and religions are capable of doing as many disparate people and political parties and nations carried out similar crimes against the people. The British were the first to use concentration camps in Africa by the way decades before.

The Nazi’s State’s actions were all about politics and assimilation into their system through the most brutal methods.
I denounce them. I also though denounce many of the lies that have been propagated for purely political purposes by various groups in regards to them as they give us no clear picture of history to learn it’s most valuable lessons and leave us all the worse off and more vulnerable for that reason.

The fact of the matter is the Germans were pretty darn efficient and meticulous at everything they did.

Do you really think that had they really just wanted to ‘exterminate’ all the Jews that they wouldn’t have succeeded in that task?

Don’t fall into the emotional traps people lay down on purpose and purposefully suffer when trying to understand this critical period of history people. What transpired is too dangerous and important of a thing to pretend things transpired for different reasons or goals than they actually did.

Ultimately we all have become victims of the Holocaust as a result of that.

reply to post by Vanitas


I'm sorry I'm not really a thread starter, I like the odd witter here and there, that's enough commitment for me, but you go ahead and I'm sure to join in somewhere along the way.

Besides, I am nowhere near as well read on this particular subject as you clearly are, I would very much like to hear more of your thoughts and insight on Goebbels and discuss the matter further. And so, with that in mind, I reserve all further comments until time as you have posted said thread.

Until then.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

It was not because they were Jewish; it was because of Jewish politics.

This is a new refreshing approach to the fact that Western and Eastern Europe lost much more then half of its Jewish population while losing less then 10 percent of total population. Jewish politics guilty,you say. Contrary to the state, you say. Gypsies were killed also because of their politics. Slavs were considered inferior because their political agenda was such. Reich was only interested in political agenda. Yup......
What kind of lame excuse is that? Even guys who actually did it had more integrity. They did not hide behind vague "Jewish politics" screen since they were bright enough to understand that changing politics without eradicating people is possible. There is Germany now, it is not Nazi. There is Japan - and it is not what it was in 1940s. Even winners, like USSR, changed their political systems.
Nazis spoke about eradication of "Jewish spirit" , "Jewish contamination" and such. While they clearly understood that this cannot be done without doing something to the nation. They had more integrity then i guess.

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge

Many people disagree on this to the point of becoming emotionally distraught and allow their emotions to then dictate their reactions to the subject.

You know Proto I could not agree with you more in relation to this subject!

Some people have a very hard time discussing this in lucid, rational and academic ways.

It's wonderful that someone has the courage to speak to this!

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


I am glad that you decided not to involve your emotions in discussion. It will surely be for the best. Prejudice also sometime interferes, but i am almost positive it does not concern members of ATS.
Answer me this ,in academic manner. What Jews in,say, Greece had in common with Jews in ,say, Italy and those together with Jews in Poland and such. Where they members of same political party? Nope. Where they all rich and powerful - nope.
What Jewish politics united them and caused those communities to be destroyed during WW2? Nazis politics had nothing to do with it , according to your academic opinion.
Hope you will be able to write something more ,hmmm, of essence and describe the hidden Jewish political ties between semi-literal Jew in Greece ,refined Jewish lawyer in Germany or Jewish doctor in Soviet Union. Best of luck. All the best to Proto.

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge

Those who actually have read the real history between the wars which in my humble opinion can only be found in Newspaper archives published and written during that period would be more aware of this than those who have only read post war history written by the victors.

You are so right once again Proto. I too have read the accounts and find many fascinating and revealing things regarding how the political landscape in the United States and Europe changes over night when the Balfour Agreement came out!

It was astounding how many different Zionists in many different countries suddenly banded together to form a cohesive front in abandoning and betraying the Kaiser's Government and to sabatoge the German War effort so England could win the war in Europe to concentrate on wresting control of Palestine from the Ottoman Turks they were loosing badly too in Galipoli in other places.

Of course the sordid details of the Treaty of Versailles and that those details negotiated at Lord Rothschild's Palace of Versailles led to the debilitating financial agreements made on behalf of Germany as well as the United States between Max Warberg of the Reichs Bank and Paul Warberg of the Federal Reserve who happened to not just be Zionists but biological brothers were so upsetting to the United States Congress and President Wilson that the Treaty as well as the League of Nations was rejected by an outraged still independent United States Congress!

Amazingly that would be the same Lord Rothschild a near bankrupt and out of amunition English Government addressed the Balfour Declaration personally too!

Of course the rise of Bolshevism and communism heavily influenced by Zionists factions in Russia and also Germany placed incredible pressure on the post World War I political landscape in Europe and most especially Germany saddled with Treaty Obligations that were as bankrupting as they were debilitating that it's Prussian aristocrats fought hard against before being removed fron the Treaty Process by Reichsbank's Interests controlled by Rothschild and Warberg.

Fascinating reading and very insightful about the real geopolitical and social economic factors that led to yet another major World War so quickly on the heals of the last.

Of course you are so right about not being able to read about it unless you have read all the News Paper Archives as these events actually transpire Proto!

Thanks for speaking to these things and not falling into the emotional traps and pitfalls so many people do when trying to understand this critical period of history!




[edit on 31/10/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

The fact of the matter is the Germans were pretty darn efficient and meticulous at everything they did.

I can't blame you for believing that.
It's a stereotype even the Germans believed in for a long time.

But the FACT is, their Soviet campaign - especially the Ukraine part - was an unmitigated disaster of poor planning* and mindlessly wasteful use of "human resources", to put it mildly.
(And that includes their relations with the local Jewish populations.)


* Did you know they lost more men to disease and frostbite than to enemy fire?
Research their footwear, for example - that should tell you they had idiots in charge of provisions.








[edit on 1-11-2009 by Vanitas]

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge


Indeed.
And, to confuse matters even further, there is evidence that few within the NSDAP itself believed the "International Finance Jewry" story as a pretext for a total wipe-out of Jews.

All I know is that the further one researches this chapter of human history, the weirder it looks...







[edit on 1-11-2009 by Vanitas]

reply to post by shamhat


Oh... no problem, then.
None of my questions are all that relevant to any of the subjects usually discussed on this site; and they are certainly not "burning" enough to warrant to a new thread.

But there'll be another opportunity, I am sure.

Hitler had a mufti by his side. just sayin.
Hitler part II is Amadinijad who yells his hateful speeches daily. Motivation is right in the Quran, Jews and Christians are inferior and should be killed. In the last election protest Christians were rounded up and killed in prisons, well except for Neda who was killed in the street. This was only a small handfull of thousands but the bigger plan is to be carried out soon.

Originally posted by Vanitas
But the FACT is, their Soviet campaign - especially the Ukraine part - was an unmitigated disaster of poor planning* and mindlessly wasteful use of "human resources", to put it mildly.
(And that includes their relations with the local Jewish populations.)

* Did you know they lost more men to disease and frostbite than to enemy fire?
Research their footwear, for example - that should tell you they had idiots in charge of provisions.

Excellent point. Flaw in the design. Like the first WTC bombing. Then when it happened again it was more efficient.

Originally posted by ufoorbhunter
I know this Hungarian guy and he told me this story. When the Red Army broke into Hungary in 1944 they murdered all the Jews in his town, they then put out through the media that the Germans had killed them! Don't know if it's factual but it has made me think about how much total blame for the holocaust can be blamed on the Germans alone.

exactly! in war every side makes atrocities
and since winners 'write' the history, the history
'facts' that people learn in schools are very
questionable...

the problem is what you do afterward: jews made a
very profitable business out of the holocaust and that's
what's disgusting

like, they were the only ones that suffered in WWII...

Originally posted by JJay55
Hitler had a mufti by his side. just sayin.
Hitler part II is Amadinijad who yells his hateful speeches daily. Motivation is right in the Quran, Jews and Christians are inferior and should be killed. In the last election protest Christians were rounded up and killed in prisons, well except for Neda who was killed in the street. This was only a small handfull of thousands but the bigger plan is to be carried out soon.

those thousands are hardly comparable to millions that died in recent history by actions of your western leaders (not just by bombs)... it is obvious that you are a victim of bad propaganda, you see hitlers everywhere

it is a sign of mental disorder

reply to post by donhuangenaro

The plan is for millions to die. And like those who knew Hitlers plan there was no course of action that could be taken. Right? It happened and will happen again no matter how much we think we can stop it. Genocide in a world of 6 billion might be welcomed in the minds of some leadership.
That's not a mental disorder...

Originally posted by JJay55
reply to post by donhuangenaro

 

The plan is for millions to die. And like those who knew Hitlers plan there was no course of action that could be taken. Right? It happened and will happen again no matter how much we think we can stop it. Genocide in a world of 6 billion might be welcomed in the minds of some leadership.
That's not a mental disorder...

are you sure?

I think that everyone who plans to kill millions have
some degree of mental disorder...

but, the problem is when one is pointing fingers and taking sides,
Ahmadinejad is no more Hitler than Bush is... when you compare number of died people and count how many Ahmadinejad killed and how many Bush killed by their actions, logically mr. Bush would be the winner, and we could easily call him Hitler II...

like I said before, in conflict and war every side make atrocities, but problem begins when the winners, with use of propaganda machine, blame the losing side for every single dead to hide the true facts...

reply to post by spellbound


I agree. We can speculate until the cows come home. He knew it. He wanted it, he engineered it with his murderous little buddies who were like minded and had these dirty minions execute his vile and evil plan.

If history revisits us - then - the whole *Hitler didn’t know* is completely believable. Just look at the Bush and Cheney fiasco.

Though I will add - that does NOT exclude Hitler from shouldering the ultimate responsibility for these crimes against humanity, just as it does not absolve Bush from the crimes committed (knowingly or not) in his name either.

peace

[edit on 1-11-2009 by silo13]

Originally posted by Vanitas

The fact of the matter is the Germans were pretty darn efficient and meticulous at everything they did.

I can't blame you for believing that.
It's a stereotype even the Germans believed in for a long time.

But the FACT is, their Soviet campaign - especially the Ukraine part - was an unmitigated disaster of poor planning* and mindlessly wasteful use of "human resources", to put it mildly.
(And that includes their relations with the local Jewish populations.)


* Did you know they lost more men to disease and frostbite than to enemy fire?
Research their footwear, for example - that should tell you they had idiots in charge of provisions.








[edit on 1-11-2009 by Vanitas]

Once again from a purely academic standpoint as I do not endorse violence or war of any kind most historians who have made a study of World War II their career or a large part of it conclude the following:

Operation Barbarossa was meant to begin 6 weeks before it did.

Italy stepped outside of the Axis chain of command early in the Spring to attack Greece without authorization from the central Axis command.

Because of the proximity of Greece to the Balkan States and the supply lines flowing through them and the British presence still in/on Greece at that point in time when Italian troops quickly became bogged down German troops had to be pulled from the Balkans and other Barbarossa staging areas to go into Greece to aide the Italian Campaign.

Once the Greek Peninsula was secured in relatively short order the German troops were pulled back up to the jumping off point for Barbarossa but this put them weeks behind schedule.

It is important to consider that when the early Russian Winter arrived the German Troops were actually at this point within 50 miles of Moscow and at it's outskirts before the weather ground their mechanized equipment to a halt.

The whole German war doctrine initially revolved around lightening fast mechanized warfare against less modern armies.

Simply put the High Command had not envisioned not being able to knock out Russia by taking it's principal capitols including Moscow and Volgagrad (Lenningrad) before Winter set in.

Stalin in fact was so dismayed he seems to have had a nervous breakdown and took little part in organizing a key defence until the Winter stopped the German advance and not the Russian Army.

The six weeks delay played a critical factor in not being able to take Moscow before the onset of winter. It could easily be argued those six weeks would have allowed the Germans who stalled at the outskirts of the Russian Capitol by the weather to have easily taken the city.

The German High Command had assumed (wrongly) that by winter they would be functioning as an occupational force (like in France and the low countries and the Balkans and Poland) and not as a battle group (like in Africa or as it turned out still in Russia).

This had far more to do with Italian incompetence than German incompetence.

Further and let me state I deplore the tactics and truly grieve for every man, woman and child that perrished in the offensive regardless of their race, creed, color, religion, or sexual orientation or lifestyle that the scorched earth policy being used throughout the Ukraine and other places was actually Union General's William Tecumsah Sherman's policy of total war fare and scorched earth to make war as brutal and as horrible as possible for the expressed purpose of breaking the enemy's will to fight by breaking the will if the enemy's population which he had succesfully displayed like none other on his march from Atlanta to Savanah and the Sea.

This was nothing new or uniquely German when it comes to warfare.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Once again from a purely academic standpoint

I am pretty sure that Leningrad is St. Petersburg. So if German generals indeed tried to get Volgagrad instead (wherever it might be, i guess it is on river Volga somewhere, long way from Baltic) since they mixed up the names too - failure of lightning strike is understood.
Do not know what Proto would say about this.
However as for ww1, Proto told me that Ottoman empire entered alliance with Germany on its own free will. So if you do not wonder why British fought Ottoman empire in Mesopotamia ,Galipolli, Persia, even in Caucasus (i did not know about that, so Proto told me about Dunsterforce.) - why you are puzzled about Sinai/Palestine campaign?Except the fact that Palestine did not exist then but was divided into 3 different administrative regions. Northern one with Beirut as a capital.
Then Proto told me that Palace of Versailles has nothing to do with Rotchilds. Wise man. He knew that it was built by French kings and is owned by France. No biggy though. Since he also noted that harsh conditions in treaty of Versai were demanded by French, and not US. Or certainly not Germans. To suggest the opposite one has to provide proof more substantial then be capable of using words as "Zionists", "Jewish politics","Rotchilds" and even Volgagrad. As for communism - it is clearly Jewish politics to create a movement that fights with private property and capitalism. Those proletarians like Rotchilds and Warburgs were known Communists....
Then Proto asked me to quote thing he never said:

Jews are different people, they follow different agendas and while one wants this ,other probably wants that. Just as with rest of Human race, no two Jews are alike. But to some this is not even a possibility. They can claim with same breath that it is whole " Judea" that declared war on Nazi Germany, citing some hyped newspaper title discussing failed Jewish boycott on German products , and then blame all Jews for trading with Nazi Germany. They can claim that all Jews are communists and then in the same paragraph state that all Jews are accumulating everybody's capital. So maybe this weird blind spot of those academically objective individuals is what is called "Jewish politics"?

Proto said he was sorry for large quote.
Also he added that he senses his opponent will again not answer the questions but dance around and answer his own invisible Proto. Figures. Jewish politics in a works....

[edit on 1-11-2009 by ZeroKnowledge]

[edit on 1-11-2009 by ZeroKnowledge]