A must watch for all believers and non-believers

Please watch this tribute to Mr. Sagan. I know most believers hate him, but listen and shut everything down for a moment.
Carl Sagan's Legacy
Please watch. He had a love for things that we talk about and even dream about. 10 Minutes from your time will not kill you or make you a kook. Please listen to the voice for once.

[edit on 29-10-2009 by djvexd]

[edit on 30-10-2009 by djvexd]

I think I've seen this one before. its excellent!

i like this tribute to him
haunting and beautiful.
www.youtube.com...





[edit on 29-10-2009 by ELECTRICkoolaidZOMBIEtest]

"In our tenure on this planet we have accumulated dangerous evolutionary baggage---propensities for aggression, rituals, submission to leaders, hostilities towards outsiders---all of which puts our survival in some doubt."

I think Sagan had some very wise words in this video.

The quote above is only half of the equation. He also had some very encouraging words of hope that we should all embrace before it is too late.

Even if we cannot change the environment in time, even if this planet is doomed, at least we might still have time to change ourselves and our behavior toward one another.

Originally posted by djvexd
Please watch this tribute to Mr. Sagan. I know most believers hate him, but listen and shut everything down for a moment.
Carl Sagan's Legacy
Please watch. He had a love for things that we talk about and even dream about. 5 Miutes from your time will not kill you or make you a kook. Please listen to the voice for once.

[edit on 29-10-2009 by djvexd]

Carl Sagan was one of my heroes. I learned to think differently thanks to his brilliance and the way he explained complex subjects so that the average Joe on the street walked away knowing more.

But I always had a problem with Carl. He was close-minded when it came to UFOs. I always wished that somehow I could link with him over a cup of coffee or at a friend's so that I could "corner" him and set him straight about the reality of UFOs. And about the falsity of the concept that we are not alone. He didn't originate "Extraordinary claims..." but he popularized it so that it became almost a byword of skeptics, mainly.

He should have used his own maxim when he referred to the millions of other beings in the cosmos.

Just for his COSMOS programs he was worth the money.

Originally posted by Alethea
"In our tenure on this planet we have accumulated dangerous evolutionary baggage---propensities for aggression, rituals, submission to leaders, hostilities towards outsiders---all of which puts our survival in some doubt."
snip
Even if we cannot change the environment in time, even if this planet is doomed, at least we might still have time to change ourselves and our behavior toward one another.

In his words, above, he didn't mention anything about the environment, only about ourselves. I am not of the opinion that we can harm this beautiful planet. Like a dog shrugs off fleas, Mother Earth will one day shrug us off also and it'll keep spinning as it always has and icebergs will form and melt and it'll get warm and then it'll freeze just as it did before we arrived.

Originally posted by djvexd
Please watch this tribute to Mr. Sagan. I know most believers hate him, but listen and shut everything down for a moment.
Carl Sagan's Legacy
Please watch. He had a love for things that we talk about and even dream about. 5 Miutes from your time will not kill you or make you a kook. Please listen to the voice for once.

[edit on 29-10-2009 by djvexd]

How can I not like a tribute to Carl Sagan with a signature like mine? It was good, but it may have been better had it been 5 minutes long as your OP suggests, that would be a good length for a tribute. I think 10 minutes was a little long and 5 minutes would require picking the really best clips only.

Isaac Asimov was a very smart guy, who once said, the only guy he ever met who was smarter than him, was Carl Sagan, what a compliment! And not only did Sagan have brains, but he had an ability to communicate to the ordinary layperson in a way that not all scientists are so gifted. He really taught us a lot about the universe we live in, and made us think about the possibility and indeed the probability of life elsewhere in the universe, as some of these clips suggest.

I will always remember him fondly.

Thanks for the tribute.

I was able to actually attend a lecture he gave in 1989 at U.C. Berkley, I was only 16 then, and my brother brought me along. I remember a student asking him during the Q&A session about UFO's. His short but eloquent, off the cuff answer stuck with me. " To think that other life in this galaxy doesn't exist is a lack of understanding, but to think we have discovered all life on this planet is ignorance." That was it. That quote has stuck with me through my years and he was right. I do apologize however if this video has been posted before and at it's length. However 10 minutes, especially in this world NOW, to decompress, is just enough to keep some of us sane. I can drive to the beach at night to do that, how many on this board can say that? I feel that looking beyond this globe sometimes has a way of realigning us in some fashion. Meh, or it could be me, either way enjoy.

[edit on 30-10-2009 by djvexd]

reply to post by djvexd


I love Carl Sagan but can you stop using the term 'beleivers' -its just as presumptuous as others using the term 'denialists'.

Most folks here have a healthy interest in the UFO/OVNI subject and realise there exists a great many unexplained and puzzling incidents - as for the ego obsessed,agenda based individuals on either side of the debate -well they're both as bad as (and a mirror image of ) each other.

Great video though -Cosmos is one of the finest books I've ever read.

I use the term "believers" to indicate the far, far reaches of people that accept whatever comes down the pipe as fact without any rational thought or evidence. I am sorry if you feel put off by that but I do not practice PC, don't believe in it, nor do I have the time to indulge it. I was not, nor will I assume that people that post in these forums are as such and as for me I have seen things, but remain skeptical. I did not mean to offend but I cannot with a concious (sp? early morning,lol) stop using terms but I can define how I do use it if that helps.

[edit on 30-10-2009 by djvexd]

Originally posted by djvexd
I use the term "believers" to indicate the far, far reaches of people that accept whatever comes down the pipe as fact without any rational thought or evidence.

Yes,I certainly accept that the people you describe do exist.

What term would you give to to folks who beleive nothing is a UFO; indulge in lazy prejudice/wilfull ignorance and have a near pathological aversion to addressing certain UFO incidents?

Originally posted by djvexdI am sorry if you feel put off by that but I do not practice PC..

I probably hate political correctness more than you do.

Originally posted by djvexdI was not, nor will I assume that people that post in these forums are as such and as for me I have seen things, but remain skeptical.

Well, its worth pointing out that some unknown objects are visualy corellated on radar displaying completely unprecedented flight characteristics/ aerial manouverability/ rates of speed - they have also been known to exhibit electromagnetic effects on aircraft.

Whatever these objects actualy are is, of course, up for debate but I thought you were blanket labelling all people who take an interest in such matters 'beleivers' - my mistake.

I also agree with you that healthy scepticism and objectivity are important traits but the trouble I find is that many of the 'government sanctioned' investigations into the UFO subject appear to have utter contempt for these values.
Don't know if you've heard these USAF 'explanations' before but I'd be interested to know what you make of them and whether you find the government 'version of events' sincere or dishonest:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
Cheers.

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

to answer your first question: idiots. Plain and simple. People whose meager grasp on thier reality is SO threatened be the mere fact that we are not the pinnacle that they try and "debunk" anything and everything that even hints at the topic, to the point of ridiculing the person when they know they haven't got ma leg to stand on in an intellectually honest arguement.
Now as for the rest I may not have fleshed things out as I should have. The 2 things I saw were the cursed triangles. However I firmly beleive those are the U.S.'s ( possible back engineered, but). I do believe we are being visited but I tend to be uberskeptical when "waves of these reported sightings start flooding in. They generally coincide with summer break, finals and mid-terms. ( I live 2 blocks aaway from Full Sail Academy for the Computer and TV arts.) I have worked for the man , I am well aware and can usually smell when the are BS'ing or trying to cover-up. I am more on your side than you think.

reply to post by djvexd


Djvexd,thanks for the reply -certainly can't fault anything you said there.
Its a strange one when it comes to the triangular sightings as there have been quite a few reports down the years citing highly unusual flight characteristics.
Found this interesting quote made by Nick Pope from the British Ministry of Defense.

"We were asking the Americans, 'Are you operating a prototype aircraft in our airspace?' That, of course, was nonsense. You simply would not do that from a diplomatic and political point of view. It would undermine the entire structure of NATO if you were putting things through someone else's airspace, particularly a close ally, without seeking the proper diplomatic clearance. But we had to ask. And the Americans, having had similar reports, I guess, since the Hudson Valley wave [New York state, mid-1980s], had been quietly asking us if we had some large, triangular shaped object that could go from 0 to Mach 5 in a second. Our response was that we wished we did. This was the bizarre situation: that we were chasing the Americans, and the Americans were chasing us."

Nick Pope - Head of the "UFO desk" at Air Secretariat 2-A, British Ministry of Defence.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Who knows what the dickens is going on -its all very puzzling.



As for your vid featuring Mr Sagan,he makes a mighty fine point in this photograph - he was a very wise chap and is sorely missed.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/8eb1007de7ce.jpg[/atsimg]
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Cheers.

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

reply to post by karl 12


Don't get me wrong, I liked and admired Carl. I felt I could have given him a different take on UFOs to "convince" him not to be so close-minded about them. But that "beautiful" discourse is really poetic diarrhrea. Eveything he said there could have been whittled down to 2 words: human beings!

My mom let me ditch school on two occasions:

On the days JPL was posting live images of the Voyager and Pioneer projects and when Cosmos was on PBS. I am a better person for having grown up with Carl Sagan. He is a hero, a saint and a true human. I miss you Carl...*sniff*



Cheers,

Erik

Originally posted by Skeptical Ed
reply to post by karl 12

 

Don't get me wrong, I liked and admired Carl. I felt I could have given him a different take on UFOs to "convince" him not to be so close-minded about them. But that "beautiful" discourse is really poetic diarrhrea. Eveything he said there could have been whittled down to 2 words: human beings!

Well, Ed...

The phrase, "Human Beings", the end...That just doesn't do a whole friggin' lot for me except conjure up a bunch of stuff that pisses me off in my head, especially in relation to our environment and to each other.

That "Diarrhea" that Carl soliloquized touched not my brain, but my Mind, Heart and Soul.

Ahhhh poetic diarrhea, Ed....It's called ART!! Culture. Creativity. It defines us thankfully more than the atrocities we commit. Carl had a way in that he could paint the atrocities as well as the amenities in the same sentence and still leave you in awe and wonder.

Art Ed! Art!!

Ahh well. To each their own.

I'll take the diarrhea......*sheeesh!*

[edit on 22/OctpmFri, 30 Oct 2009 22:04:03 -0500/08 by redwoodjedi]

Originally posted by Skeptical Ed
..that "beautiful" discourse is really poetic diarrhrea.

I think the second part of the quote is quite profound:

"The earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that in glory and in triumph they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of the dot on scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner of the dot. How frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds. Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity -- in all this vastness -- there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves. It is up to us.
Carl Sagan"

Originally posted by redwoodjedi
My mom let me ditch school on two occasions:

On the days JPL was posting live images of the Voyager and Pioneer projects and when Cosmos was on PBS..

Erik,thats some good parenting there bud - Carl Sagan was a truly inspiring chap.
Here he is on the news discussing our planet and its place in the cosmos:





There are also these historical quotes about life elsewhere in the universe which he would have probably agreed with:

"To consider the earth as the only populated world in infinite space is as absurd as to assert that in an entire field of millet,only one grain will grow"
Methodorus.
Greek philosopher of the fourth century B.C.



"Heaven and earth are large,yet in the whole of space they are but as small as a grain of rice.......How unreasonable it would be to suppose that,besides the heaven and earth which we can see,there are no other heavens and no other earths"
Teng Mu.
Chinese philosopher of thirteenth century A.D.



"The universe is infinitely wide.
Its vastness holds innumerable atoms....
So it must be unthinkable that
Our sky and our round world are precious and unique....
Out beyond our world there are,elsewhere,
Other assemblages of matter making other worlds.
Ours is not the only one in air´s embrace"
Lucretius.
Roman philosopher of the first century B.C.



"Innumerable suns exist;innumerable earths revolve about these suns in a manner similar to the way the seven planets revolve around our sun.
Living beings inhabit these worlds"
Giordano Bruno.
Italian monk of the sixteenth century (also burnt at the stake for these views by religious bigots).



"Looking at the stars always makes me dream,as simply as I dream over the black dots representing towns and villages on a map.
Why ,I ask myself,shouldn´t the shining dots of the sky be as accessible as the black dots on the map of France?"
Vincent Van Gogh.



"Why may not every one of these stars or suns have as great a retinue as our sun of planets,with their moons,to wait on them?...They must have their plants and animals,nay and their rational creatures too,and those as great admirers,and as diligent observers of the heavens as ourselves...."
Christiaan Huygens.
Dutch physicist and astronomer of the seventeenth century.



"It is precisely because I believe theologically there is a being called God,and that He is infinite in intelligence,freedom, and power,that I cannot
take it upon myself to limit what He might have done.
Once He created the Big Bang.....He could have envisioned it going in billions of directions as it evolved,including billions of life-forms and billions of kinds of intelligent beings...
As a theologian,I would say that this proposed search for extraterrestrial intelligence (SETI) is also a search for knowing and understanding God through His works-especially those works that most reflect Him.Finding others than ourselves would mean knowing Him better"
Theodore M. Hesburgh ,C.S.C.,
University of Notre Dame



"I do not know what I may appear to the world,but to myself I seem to have been only a boy playing on the seashore,and diverting myself now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary,whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me"
Sir Isaac Newton.



"The earth is the cradle of mankind,but one does not live in the cradle forever"
Konstantin Tsiolkovsky.



"Being an optimist,I support a persistent search for beacon signals of extraterrestrial civilisations"
Andrei D. Sakharov

Cheers.

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

Nice amalgamation of quotes and imagery there, Karl. As is per your M.O. normally.

Those are truly amazing and incredibly insightful when you consider the context of them and then reconsider the era in which they were borned.

Of course the very cliche phrase "ahead of their time" comes to mind. What other phrase suffices?

Good to hear from you as always,

Erik

Karl I must make a confession....I saved that vid to my Myspace profile...Thanks never saw that vid before and by one of my favorite bands as well, triple-word score for you. And as for redwood, you are so absolutley right. To have that thinking in those long ago ages to be saved and respoken even now shows the truth in them....or proves reincarnation...lol Now moreso than ever we need to work with other space agencies to expand our capabilities. However I am a little reticent for us to make contact with others especially at our current mindset.

[edit on 31-10-2009 by djvexd]

reply to post by djvexd


Djvexd,thanks for the triple word score - and I agree that Pink Floyd are a mighty fine band indeed.

Found this interesting news article on Mr Sagan from 1962:

Prof Says Beings From Outer Space Have Visited Earth

Associated Press, November 26, 1962

LOS ANGELES. (AP) - Some of the best scientific minds in the country were stumped when a slender, dark-haired young man chalked on the blackboard this equation:

N equals R FP NE FL FI FC L.

The speaker was Dr. Carl Sagan, a 28 year-old assistant professor of astronomy at Harvard University.

His audience consisted of several hundred members of the American Rocket Society, gathered for his luncheon address.

The equation was his way of expressing the mathematical probability that intelligent beings from outer space have visited earth.

Sagan soberly explained that in his equation N Stands for the number of advanced technical civilizations in the universe possessing the capability of interstellar communication.

R is the mean rate of star formation averaged over the lifetime of the galaxy.

FP is the fraction of stars with planetary systems.

NE is the mean number of planets in each system with environments favorable for the origin of life.

FL is the fraction of such planets on which life does develop.

FI is the fraction of such inhabited planets on which intelligent life with manipulative abilities rises during the lifetime of the local sun.

FC is the fraction of planets populated by intelligent beings on which advanced technical civilizations rises.

And L is the lifetime of this technical civilization.

Sagan said information in his formula is based on current estimates by astronomers. In making calculations, he assigned each symbol an arbitrary numerical value.

As expressed in numbers, Sagan said, the formula means that at least 1 million of the 100 billion stars in our Milky Way galaxy have planets which have developed civilizations capable of travel between the stars.

"Let's say that each of these civilizations sends out one interstellar expedition per year," he said.

"That means that every star, such as our sun, would be visited at least once every million years. In some systems where these beings found life, they would make more frequent visits. There's a strong probability, then, that they have visited earth every few thousand years.

"It is not out of the question that artifacts of these visits still exist or even that some kind of base is maintained, possibly automatically, within the solar system, to provide continuity for successive expeditions.

"Because of weathering and the possibility of detection and interference by the inhabitants of earth it would be preferable not to erect such a base on the earth's surface. The moon seems one reasonable alternative."

"Forthcoming photographic reconnaissance of the moon from space vehicles - particularly of the back - might bear these possibilities in mind."

At a news conference Sagan predicted man himself would be capable of interstellar flight at close to the speed of light "within a century or two."

Asked if he believed in flying saucers, he said: "I do believe there are objects which have hot be identified."

www.ufologie.net...

Cheers.