Thought I may bring up a political topic held near and dear by im sure both sides of the political pond... that be lobbyists, our dislike for them and our requests to have them removed. Looking back to the 2008 elections I must say I found it rather naive for Obama, McCain, Hillary, Huckabee, Ron Paul (yes him too for many of those ATSers here) and kucinich to ramble on about how "lobbyists" need to be removed, or that once they get into office they "would not be welcomed". Its BS ofcourse, we all know it, Im pritty darn sure they know it, but really at that time, at a place it always scores points I guess to walk with the pitch forked crowd... especially during the financial crises and the bail-outs... but really aint "getting the lobbyists out of DC" more a complicated scenario?

The issue of DC "lobbyists" isnt anything new, and lets not forget that there have been attempts in the past to get right of DC corporate lobbyists... Take for example the lobbyist disclosure act 1995 which was intended to bring by the least more transparency from lobbyists especially those of corporate interests but was met with opposition. Groups in defense of these lobbying tactics argued that it didnt matter what "interests" anybody is representing, our first ammendment freedoms with our "rights to petition" cannot be interfered by government... so that was an issue then... and lets not forget about the loopholes where this act excluded smaller donors... so there were complications in that one.

The ofcourse there was the "ethics reform" bill back in 04' although that one was again met with opposition, this time by the NRA, american civil liberties union and national right to life commitee....

So to be clear.... it isnt as simply as getting rid of corporate interests out of Washington. Lets not forget first ammendment rights apply to all, the rights to petition apply to all. As much as I hate to say it, constitutionally speaking, those corporate lobbyists have those same constitutional rights as we do... and it is frustrating at that fact.

I mean folks talk about "why hasnt Obama gotten rid of those lobbyists, why hasnt Bush done anything" or my favourite, "Ron Paul would have kicked em out"... Im mean really? Ron Paulers and libertarians likewise feel strongly against the lobbyists presence in DC just as much as anybody else... but the thing I dont get... these lobbyists are still in DC protected by the very constitutional right ron paulers and libertarians have been advocating for.... constitutional ammendment rights, the rights to petition, and lets not forget the "free market" and its loosened laws on anybody to the right to petition the government. So admittedly Im rather confused as to why Paulers and libertarians alike support the kicking out of lobbyists, despite the fact the pure free market system outright protects their rights... maybe a fellow ATSer can explain this to me...

But the main thing Im thinkin bout' here is what do we do? We cannot simply kick these individuals out. They are american citizens as well, they reserve that right to petition. If we were in court and the lobbyists were defending themselves... what would you say to them if they claimed their rights to petition under the first ammendment? We cannot simply strip that away? What do we do? The lobbyist situation is far more complicated than just kicking them out.... conservative, liberal or libertarian.... whats the solution??

[edit on 20-10-2009 by Southern Guardian]

But Obama has been soooo transparent. I mean when he met with the Insurance companies he let us know about it. He also gave lists of lobbyists and other meetings at the WH. He also asked Congress to post their bills online prior to voting. He also listened to all the voters how we felt about the bailouts and rampant spending. You know secret meetings are actually Unconstitutional. But hell, since GW did it, it is ok now that Obama is doing it.

OOOOH wait, those are all lies, Hey I have a new resume line. I believe I will send my resume to jobs.gov.

Lobbyists have absolutely nothing to do with freedom of speech.

WHERE IS A CORPORATION MENTIONED IN THE FIRST AMENDMENT-oh the American people have been converted into corporations so that automatically transfers to the Mega Corps.

Twisted logic. SG.

Tell me again where in the constitution does it allow corporations the right to buy our Senators, Congressman, Judges or President. Find that part for me, because I am too dumb to find it.

Originally posted by endisnighe
But Obama has been soooo transparent.

Are you going to make this another anti-Obama rant or are you actually going to respond to the core of the OP, that is, what is the solution? My OP wasnt specifically on one politician or one party, it was regarding the complicated situation of getting rid of the DC lobbyists. I dont know why you have to make this another personal ideological rant fest as this issue crosses ideological lines.

WHERE IS A CORPORATION MENTIONED IN THE FIRST AMENDMENT-

Why are you getting yourself worked up? I dont like the DC lobbyists anymore than you do but there is a defense they have been using for years that has prevented the removal of them. Yes the "corporation" isnt in the first ammendment of the constitution, neither are "ideological rally groups" neither are other specific groups. The "rights to petition" applies to any group of american citizens to petitition to the government about anything, whether it be for the corporation or for political change. I agree that there has to an ammendment to cut corporations out, but right now those lobbyists carry around those rights as much as everybody else.

Tell me again where in the constitution does it allow corporations the right to buy our Senators, Congressman, Judges or President.

Theres no where in the constitution where it allows lobbyists to buy off our elected leaders, thats why DC lobbyists use loopholes to indirectly lobby our elected officials... its fact. There has to be a closing of the loophole, because ultimately thats the issue here.

SG

You guys are looking at the wrong thing here...how about the men/women in power that takes the money from the lobbyists? In my personal view, these politicians are committing High Treason. Politicians are bought and sold every day, and it is not the fault of the lobby, it is the fault of those who take the money to vote a certain way. Even if we banned all lobbyists, Washington people would figure out another way to make millions from their "Public Service" jobs.

My only attempt at an answer can be the end of corporate person hood. The 1886 Supreme Court Case, Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad decision must be re-looked at.

The right for the people to petition government, and the right for the business elite to petition government should be separated.

These tasks are impossible while the current structure exists.

Corporations must be abolished - at all levels. Humans must be separated from commercial law - we are not property - we are not corporations - so we must eliminate the legal framework that allows us to be defined as such.

The whole system needs to be destroyed, then rebuilt.

Banks and lenders need to be removed entirely - the entire law repealed and replaced with the moral law "Do no harm, cause no loss" That is the only law we need. Charging interest on lent money obviously causes loss and harm - so it would be illegal.

Repeal of all laws, destruction of corporations - no money lenders - sound money (I prefer gold and silver).

The electoral system needs to be rewritten to prevent control by a few - the MSM needs to be accountable for the harm caused by bias, and lies - they do so much harm - they should be hanged.

No - kicking out lobbyists is small potatoes - it will eventually change nothing - the whole system is rotten to its core - only revolution can achieve the required ends.

The big issue is that the ones who benefit from the lobby system are paying the politicians so much that the politicians are loyal to them and not the states.

Each politician pockets proceeds and benefits multiple times in excess of what they are paid to represent the interest of their states and constituents.

These same politicians are the ones who have paved the way for these benefits to be disbursed legally to themselves. They are all millionaires by the time they've been in the 'game' for a year or two. (usually they are wealthy before they even get into office) The ones who are well entrenched are wealthy enough that it isn't about money any more it is about power, greed and sheer ego.

There is no reasoning with these people and they have no alliegance to the people who voted them into office. They are wealthy, powerful and 'better' than the average person. They believe they deserve more than the citizens and that the citizens owe something to them.

Politicians feel they owe the citizenry nothing and they do what they want.

They would never willingly give up he lobby system.

[edit on 20-10-2009 by badgerprints]

Corporations however get more attention because they have more money to spend on Lobbying and Special Interest Groups. The only reason why Corporations are allowed to Lobby is because of the Supreme Court decision that the 14th Amendment applied to Corporations. This basically gives Corporations twice the power in Congress, one as private citizens and again as a public Corporation.

And let's just call it as it is, shall we...Congresspersons are whores, being bought and sold by the highest bidder. They might as well put their votes up for auction on E-Bay. Even former President Reagan recognized this, saying "It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first."

If you think Health Care Reform is difficult to get enacted when rich and powerful Insurance and Pharmaceutical Corporations are throwing around hundreds of millions of dollars to sway the votes of Congresspersons, imagine the opposition from all Corporations united to sway the votes of Congresspersons if ever serious Lobbying Reforms were ever entertained on the floor of Congress!

However, it is something that is long overdue, needing to have been done since the mid-19th century. Out of all the things seriously wrong with our form of government, this is easily the most exaggerated and significant of them. If we the people could accomplish this one thing, then our government would be a million times better than it is now.

It is not going to happen overnight. TPTB, being in this case, the Corporate Interests, are not going to allow it to happen. Therefore, we have to be sneaky, taking baby-steps in that direction, taking one right after another of theirs away until they find themselves without leverage over our elected officials.

Note, however, that if you take the power of the Corporations to Lobby Congress directly that you'll be shifting the power to the MSM. Corporations still rule the MSM too, in the form of advertising dollars. We need to be careful to make sure the same kind of reforms happen with the MSM as we enact in Congress lest we find ourselves in the same predicament later down the road, just in another fashion.