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Texas man faces execution after jurors consult Bible to decide fate

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posted on Oct, 16 2009 @ 09:21 PM

Originally posted by IntastellaBurst

They might as well be consulting a coloring book ...

I just hope the judge is ready to dish out the punishment.

Deuteronomy 25:2
'If the guilty party deserves to be beaten, the judge will have him lie down and be beaten in his presence.'

Deuteronomy 25:2-3
'He will receive the number of blows his offence warrants. The judge may impose forty blows, but any more than that would be publicly humiliating to your fellow man.'

[edit on 16-10-2009 by In nothing we trust]

posted on Oct, 16 2009 @ 09:23 PM
Well, here in the United States, our laws are based on English Common Law, which in turn is based on Judeo/Christian law.

Seems appropriate if they want.

After all, they just went back to the original source.

posted on Oct, 16 2009 @ 09:24 PM
Whether juries should or should not be allowed to consult the Bible (or any other source) is irrelevant. It is not permitted. This jury went against the rules, which invalidates their verdict - at least, the penalty part of it.

During their interviews, potential jury members are asked many questions. They are then sworn to follow the rules imposed upon them by their duties as jurors. If they don't follow these rules, they've broken their agreement.

If a juror feels he must disregard man's laws and follow God's, that's fine. He should disqualify himself from serving on a jury. If he doesn't disqualify himself, and it is discovered that he has failed to follow man's laws, then his decision is invalid. Mistrial, at least on the issue of penalty.

posted on Oct, 16 2009 @ 10:31 PM
I'm a native Texan and I support the death penalty....When it is ABSOLUTELY positive the person did the deed. In some cases, i think the court should turn the sob's over to the family for punishment.

These goof balls using the bible? May as well have the muzzies over here with sharia! Call the shot with the law and your conscience...period!

I damn well guarantee i wouldnt care to go up against the "good" people of the "First Babdist Church" or the "Church of God, Christ,ect." for any trial I was in. Well, at least once they knew my opinion of most of them!

May as well bring back the stocks and have witch trials again.

posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 12:37 AM

A murderer will be executed. Frankly, he'd probably face the same sentence whether the jurors had access to Bibles or not.

It is God's explicit command that murderers be put to death. I'm glad some people in America still care what the Lord has to say.

posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 12:40 AM
3 Muslim Jurors consulted The Koran and some Hadiths, relevant to the case and then voted for his death.


posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 09:13 AM
reply to post by budski

Long thread. Just responding to the Op here. Forgive, if already stated.

I think that it shows responsibility to those on the jury. I'm no christian, but if they felt the need to consult a doctrine of their religion before passing judgement, then that tells me that they thought about it. They weren't swayed by cultural ambiguity.

Good for them.

posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 09:39 AM

Originally posted by Aeons
3 Muslim Jurors consulted The Koran and some Hadiths, relevant to the case and then voted for his death.


This is a giant step for Islam. Now a muslim juror can use the Koran in the US courtroom which would be devastating to the US law.
OR we can strengthen our ties to the bible as our leading documentation for what is right. Both lead to an eventual holy war.

[edit on 17-10-2009 by JJay55]

posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 10:34 AM
Not sure how a collection of bibles with marked passages ends up in a jury room, but the bottom line is that it is the Jury that determines what is law. While it sounds like the someone was trying to influence the jury in their decision which is criminal. The bottom line is the jurors are adults with the power to decide law and did so as best as they could.

Jury tampering is a separate crime and a grand jury or citizens grand jury should be held to determine who was tampering with the jury.

This reminds me of the miranda rights which state that a criminal's confession is inadmissible if he gave it prior to his rights being read to him. The criminal should know enough to shut up and not having his rights read to him is another crime. You don't let a criminal off because of a mistake or deliberate misconduct by a police officer. You should have a grand jury investigation against the violation of rights separately.

Once you know have the conclusion and perhaps indictment and prosecution and conviction on record for jury tampering there may be solid case for a retrial for whatever good that would be in this case.

posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 11:00 AM
reply to post by GiveUpTheGhost

It is God's explicit command that murderers be put to death. I'm glad some people in America still care what the Lord has to say

You don't have a clue whether there even is a God let alone what he had to say.

Those of you so eager to take someone's life for their having committed a crime are usually the same one's who have nothing to say when your government kills thousands of people who have committed no crime whatsoever in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Self righteous bigotry!

posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 11:04 AM
This is exactly the same as Iran hanging their murderers after consulting the Koran.

The only difference between a Texan and an Iranian is the book.

posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 11:06 AM

Originally posted by dooper
After all, they just went back to the original source.

Nope the original source would be the tree that the paper was made from.

I have no idea about Texas apart from their Iranian similarities, but i'm guessing they don't decide to kill people by asking trees.

(somebody correct me if i'm wrong).

posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 11:25 AM

Originally posted by GiveUpTheGhost
It is God's explicit command that murderers be put to death.
I'm glad some people in America still care what the Lord has to say.

Theres quite a number of explicit commands issued by the abrahamic god to true beleivers.
Would you be glad if people in America started mindlessly following these instructions?

If not why not?

Getting stoned if you touch the holy things:

Whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death. Exodus 19:13

Getting stoned if you take accursed things:

Achan ... took of the accursed thing. ... And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones. ... So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger. Joshua 7:1-26

Getting stoned if you curse or blaspheme:

And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. Leviticus 24:16

Getting stoned if you're raped and don't scream:

If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city. Deuteronomy 22:23-24

Getting stoned if you're an ox and gore a human:

If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned. Exodus 21:28

Getting stoned if you marry when not a virgin:

If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say ... these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. ... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die. Deuteronomy 22:13-21

Getting stoned if you worship other gods:

If there be found among you ... that ... hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them ... Then shalt thou ... tone them with stones, till they die. Deuteronomy 17:2-5

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers ... thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 13:5-10

Getting stoned if you disobey your father:

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 21:18-21

Getting stoned if you're a wizard or a witch:

A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:27

Getting stoned if you give Molech your kids:

Whosoever ... giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones. Leviticus 20:2

Getting stoned if you're a sabbath breaker:

They found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. ... And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones.... And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses. Numbers 15:32-56

Getting stoned if you curse the dictator:

Thou didst blaspheme God and the king. And then carry him out, and stone him, that he may die. 1 Kings 21:10

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 11:32 AM
Great! Apple pie flavoured Shariah law! Will there be sponsorship and a big advertising thing like with the Rose Bowl?

"Khristian Oliver's death was brought to you by Krispy Kreme, the letter 'W' and the number '5'"

posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 11:36 AM
Why not go the whole hog, get rid of the courts and the criminal justice system and put the Westboro Baptist Church in charge of judicial proceedings.

posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 12:27 PM
if this crap happend in the UK or ANY of the eu, they would be fired immediatly. and he would be given a retrial.

i cannot belive that this happens in the US. thit is disgusting, in the most vile way.

posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 12:40 PM
reply to post by budski

Very good question friend.

No way to the OT death penalty.

We are imperfect people living in an imperfect world.

Jesus rejected the Old Testament principle of eye for an eye (Matthew 5:38-41, Luke 9:52-56).

Jesus said we are all sinners and have no right to condemn others (Matthew 7:1-5).

In the case of the adulterous woman, Jesus said to those who wanted to stone her to death,

"Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her." And once again he bent down and wrote on the ground. When they heard it, they went away, one by one, beginning with the elders; and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. Jesus straightened up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" She said, "No one, sir." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you. Go your way, and from now on do not sin again." (NRSV, John 8:7-11)

Paul also warned against taking revenge (Romans 12:17-21, 1 Thessalonians 5:15).

Likewise, Peter warned not to repay evil with evil (1 Peter 3:9).

History proves that too many innocent people have been executed
The Old Testament Law prescribed the death penalty for:

1. Murder (Exodus 21:12-14; Leviticus 24:17,21)
2. Attacking or cursing a parent (Exodus 21:15,17)
3. Kidnapping (Exodus 21:16)
4. Failure to confine a dangerous animal, resulting in death (Exodus 21:28-29)
5. Witchcraft and sorcery (Exodus 22:18, Leviticus 20:27, Deuteronomy 13:5, 1 Samuel 28:9)
6. Sex with an animal (Exodus 22:19, Leviticus 20:16)
7. Doing work on the Sabbath (Exodus 31:14, 35:2, Numbers 15:32-36)
8. Incest (Leviticus 18:6-18, 20:11-12,14,17,19-21)
9. Adultery (Leviticus 20:10; Deuteronomy 22:22)
10. Homosexual acts (Leviticus 20:13)
11. Prostitution by a priest's daughter (Leviticus 21:9)
12. Blasphemy (Leviticus 24:14,16, 23)
13. False prophecy (Deuteronomy 18:20)
14. Perjury in capital cases (Deuteronomy 19:16-19)
15. False claim of a woman's virginity at time of marriage (Deuteronomy 22:13-21)
16. Sex between a woman pledged to be married and a man other than her betrothed (Deuteronomy 22:23-24)
17. Being a false witness.

That takes care of most of us,.... if the OT is the standard we are going to go by.

OT capital punishment is contradicted by the fact that many of the crimes listed above are considered minor today. Adultery is not even a Crime in many countries. Most people, including Christians, would not support capital punishment for working on the Sabbath, making false statements, adultery, or for failed predictions. (See the failed prediction threads on ATS).

For you people who want the death penalty because you believe the OT way is correct, then you better look damned hard at yourselves and don't be a hypocrite about other words line up for your own execution.

Jesus taught us that we are guilty of murder whenever we are angry at someone without just cause, because we murder that person in our own hearts.

If someone is wrongly put to death, then everyone involved in prosecuting and convicted that person should have to forfeit their lives for the injustice done. This includes, cops, false witnesses, prosecutors, jurors, and especially the judges.

posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 02:43 PM
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

reply to post by MR BOB

It's difficult to fire someone who was never hired to begin with.

Jurors are not hired for a job; they are chosen to serve as a part of their civic duty. The pay is so minimal that one could make more money by picking up aluminum cans on the side of the road. And if you take off work to attend jury duty, the 'pay' is to be returned to the company you work for anyway, in most cases.

As for a retrial, where do we draw that line? I agree that the jurors went overboard, but do we stop with having Bibles in the deliberation room? What about someone who knows the Bible by heart? Are they ineligible? What about someone who thinks they know the Bible by heart, but whose memory has played a bit of a trick on them (that's the dangerous thing, IMO)? Maybe we should exclude those who own a Bible, since they could reference it outside the courtroom. Perhaps anyone who has family or friends who have Bibles?

And what of the murderer? Do we let him loose, to possibly kill again, this time possibly someone you or I know? The verdict is not under dispute; only the sentencing, and then only because of what some jurors reported, not because it was outside the bounds of the law.

It is very easy to get lost in the cries of religious intolerance, but in the end, this is not about religion; it is about law, and the law as it stands today does not state that beliefs which coincide with the Bible are inappropriate, nor that jurors cannot use whatever means they wish to determine a verdict.

There is a safeguard to this happening already built into the legal system. Every single one of those jurors were questioned by both the prosecution and the defense before they were chosen to serve. The jury pool is typically at least 10 times larger than what is required to staff the jury. Each side strikes off a name in turn, based on the questioning, until 13-15 names are left. 12 of those serve, and the others stand in attendance should a juror be unable to continue for any reason.

So again, I ask: why were these people not vetted properly to begin with? Or were they, were they possibly allowed to be on the jury by the defense in hopes of something like this happening?

To the thread in general:
Somehow I get the feeling that a lot of the criticism I am seeing is motivated by fear: fear of what might happen should someone be in the same situation as Mr. Oliver. If that is so, my response would be: "Don't go around killing people while you are robbing them."



As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 03:45 PM
reply to post by TheRedneck

I don't think any right thinking person would want this man to go free, or even suggest such a thing.

Having said that, where is the line drawn with this?

Should we allow muslims, jews, hindu's etc etc to bring their holy books into the deliberations and highlight which points they think should mean the DP or not?

After all, they have as much right in law to worship how they want to and have the freedom of speech to express how they feel.

How about if a jury, by sheer fluke was composed of radical muslims who were hell bent on sharia law?
Everyone would be sentenced to death for murder, with no recourse for anything.

And if we are to allow OT to influence deliberations to this extent, where does it end?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the US is mostly a Christian country, and given Jesus' feelings about the OT, how does this decision sit with that particular anomoly?

As I said before, something needs to be seen to be done about this - if the facts are there he'd still be found guilty, and he'd maybe receive the DP, but at least the trial and sentencing wouldn't be tainted in this way.

posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 04:00 PM
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

reply to post by budski

The best suggestion I have heard to accomplish this was offered by ReelView above. That is, investigate the actions of the jury as a crime in themselves.

My main concern is that when a mistrial is declared, the guilty verdict is thrown out as well as the sentencing. Not only does that give a murderer a second chance to skirt the law through technicalities, it also validates in both his mind and the minds of everyone else that you can do what you want, and if caught you can get off through someone else's stupidity.

That is simply not conducive to a law-abiding society.

Right is right. The man killed another human being, in cold blood, while attempting to rob him. He cannot be allowed into society again. The actions of the jurors should not be used to throw out the conviction. On the other hand, the guilty parties are indeed the jurors in this case, and therefore it is the jurors who should be held to the law, rather than not holding a murderer to the law because of their actions.

You know I agree with you on making sure this does not set a precedent for religious discussions in legal cases. But I also don't want to go the other way and set a precedent for someone to throw a jury by deliberately skewing the vetting process. I am coming to believe more and more as I think about it that this is what happened.


As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

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