Fahrenheit 9/11 - now, the heat

Originally posted by Tyriffic
earthtanned is a moron

Please go to Iraq and tell the troops...........

Is that all you have to say? Go tell the troops what, that they are fighting for for immoral causes? And I do not mean that getting rid of Saddam was a bad thing, it is the actually reasons that we are not told that are important. Open your eyes.

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar

I hate to disagree with my friend Tyriffic, but I will be making a small investment in a cinema ticket.

I would concur, MA. I will also be seeing this one. Out of...what was it....sheer morbid boredom?

Pretty much all the Bowling for Columbine questions posted in here regarding it's credibility (ie he made stuff up etc) are answered by him on his website at www.michaelmoore.com...

Plus, his 'Dude Where's my Country' book has loads of stuff in it about the Bush/Bin Ladens relationship. I'm well aware that I sound like an advert but they're worth having a look at if you're 'unsure' about Moore and have only seen Bowling for Columbine, which is the case for the vast majority I think. It's easy to dismiss him because of the way he carries out his 'journalism' by mocking people a lot of the time, but his points are always valid if you have a similar political position to his, and I do pretty much. He's a bit of a dick at times, almost cringworthy on occasions, but on the whole he's alright and he never makes it up.

d.

Micheal Moore is not a properly trained journalist, documentor or film maker. He tells us he never went to college. He makes films his way and this attracts media attention to topics which otherwise wouldn't. I don't think Moore is particually systematic or thorough but anything that gets the ignorance mind to potentially read more on the subject sounds great to me.

I think it's pretty clear that most right wingers just plain don't like Michael Moore. Hence the cries of "not factual" about BFC and other of his works. The truth is that practically everything he releases is based on official figures, but because people don't want to think about the content of his work, they revert to character assassination.

I took a really in depth look at BFC myself and catalogued all the "factual inaccuracies". Turns out that one or two have some basis, and MM hasn't adequately answered some of them (particularly the tight edit of "48 hours after blahblah") that gives the viewer the idea that Heston visited Flint within 48 hours of a murder committed by a young child at school. This isn't the case, he went there 8 months later, although some of the residents were still pretty pissed off about it.

Actually, 48 hours after the murder Heston did try to say that the shooting by the young child didn't warrant extra gun controls, so this may not have been deliberately deceptive. Anyway, full dicussion is available here...

www.orangeminds.com...

So overall I think MM is probably just a sensational leftist orientated commentator. The right are worried about that, because usually the leftist guys aren't particularly interested in power or the media (Chomsky for example). Also, some hardcore leftists aren't so happy about having a commentator who is so bold and media-friendly. Well, that's their opinion and that's ok. I do think his work is entertaining though, and as the poster above points out, he encourages debate about topics that are generally buried in the mostly right-wing mainstream media.

If Fahrenheit 9-11 is full of lies and half-truths then there's this little thing called Libel Law.

If it's false or misleading, the Bushies can sue for Libel or Defamation of Character.

Notice how none of that is happening. Nor will it.

Because despite all their protestations, it IS true. Read any books? There's been 3 books out in the last year that deal with the bin Laden-Bush connection.

Does nobody know what the Carlyle Group is? Nobody watches Frontline?

Yeesh.

I read the news release yesterday about the planes with the Bin Laden's on it and it showed the flight path it took. During the days that they had the US being in a no fly zone, I was outside doing a little gardening and saw a plane go over, which I of course noticed since there were not supposed to be any planes in the air. I did not report it though I considered it, but figured it had to be picked up by radar since it was too high up and had to be hitting the radar. I did listen to the news and heard no mention of a flight and just figured it had to be a government flight. Now upon looking at the flight path which would have put them right over my house I now know I witnessed this highly secret flight. Glad I did not call.

Yeah Moore isn't properly trained journalist, documenter or film maker, Look at CNN, those people are very well trained. They should be a model for every aspiring journalist in collage.

Maybe this movie will wake up some of these brain-dead zombies and make them think a little.

Wake up from what? All of the non actionable hype thats spewed about Bush? IF any of this had a shred of actionable truth to it, why hasnt Bush's opponents already utilized this info? Simple, its not enough to bust him with. Might look like hanky panky, but if you cant prove it...you got a bag full of hot air.

Whatever conclusion MMoore would like to try and paint...the reality is it lacks anything that is actually criminal, negligent, or any other such actionable situation. Questionably linking information, without all the facts, put forth in such a manner as to beg the question....and draw a conclusion that may or may not be true is SPECULATION!

Come back when the actual grand jury is sitting down....until then stop contributing to global warming with all your hot air!

What gets me is some people, think this is alll about Bush, its aways all about Bush. GD, whats happening is soo much more bigger than this upcoming so called election .

I found a nice place to view Fahrenheit 911 with my loved one shortly.

An atmospheric and romantic place to share a most unromantic film at its premiere at a Festival in a more peaceful part of the world than the US...

Here�s the Festival copy:

Can a movie change the world? Michael Moore is giving it his best shot, carrying his all-out assault on George W. Bush into the Cannes Film Festival on a wave of anti-corporate hype � Disney won�t distribute it � and carrying it back home with the ultimate in Film Festival trophies: the Palme d�Or.

European audiences like nothing better than and American criticizing America, but the real question is: now that they�ve heard about it, how will the people of heartland America respond to it?

�.. will have their first chance to assess the power of Moore�s impassioned attempt to preach to the unconverted and send them fuming to the polls. �It was strident, passionate, sometimes outrageously manipulative and often bafflingly selective in its material, but Fahrenheit 911 was a barnstorming anti-war anti-Bush polemic tossed like an incendiary device into the crowded Cannes festival� This was an exhilarating and even refreshing film, especially coming at a time when political commentators on either side of the Atlantic � progressives and ex-progressives alike � are apparently too worldly and sophisticated to be angry about the war� � Peter Bradshaw, The Guardian.

�Moore takes the same hairpin turn the country has over the past 14 months and crash-lands into the gripping story that is unfolding in real time right now� No-one would ever accuse Michael Moore of having a beautiful mind. Subtleties and fine distinctions are not his thing. That matters very little, it turns out, when you have a story this ugly and this powerful to tell� � Frank Rich, NY Times

(Or you could take the �fair and balanced� approach, a la Fox � this straight from the house of sin: �It�s so outrageously false, it�s not even worth comment� � Dan Bartlett, White House communications director. No rebuttal required? What a dimwit!)

BTW, has anyone seen the series of 11 shorts that goes by the name �11-09-01� where each short is exactly 11 minutes and 9 seconds and 1 frame long? I finished watching it last night� the Iranian and Burkina Faso contributions were best, the Japanese human snake was the weirdest. Well worth seeing these dramatized and artistic accounts of the precursor to war, a different experience to the bombardment of the reality of what the Bush disaster has done by Moore�s crew.

I applaud anybody for having the balls to stand up and loudly stick a pin in the big bush balloon.
Call Moore a liar if you want, but he's no more of a liar than the people in the Bush administration.
Tonight, MSNBC's own Hannity, Joe Scarborough, was trying his best to label Moore a "liar", and citing the fact that Richard Clarke claims to have ordered the Bin Ladens safely out of the country on 9/11, not Bush, thereby making it all a lie. But it does not hide the ugly fact that somebody in the BUSH ADMINISTRATION did do that very thing.
I mean, shouldn't a president be held ultimately accountable ? If Bush is completey absolved, then wouldn't that be proof that he doesn't have a clue what's going on ?
(Kind of like Cheney's spokesperson claiming that he himself knew of Halliburton's no-bid contracts, but the VP was unaware. Ha Ha.)

The Bush people are more upset about truths than lies in Fahrenheit 9/11 !

Originally posted by Croker
The Bush people are more upset about truths than lies in Fahrenheit 9/11 !

So upset they have flagged a new terror alert...

Originally posted by Simon
I really don't understand where the animosity towards Moore comes from.

Not trying to be mean here, but I think it is his appearance.

In my own opinion, Moore was hired by the 'man' to discredit any and all of Moores own ideas. We need that big haired pretty boy with a stern chin and a stoney voice to tell us the truth. Not some fat sloppy un-shaven cretin.

It is a tactic used in Hollywood for years. I believe in Mel and Mel alone , for he is too insane to be working for the govenment. And remember his quote in Conspiracy Theory about Oliver Stone?

If Moore was for real, 'they' would have shut him up by now.



Nutzo

So, a documentary movie with a riproaring PR campaign behind it goes off at American cinemas... and all of a sudden there is a Forum devoted to it at ATS, replete with 39 topics already.

The discussion in some of those topics makes about as much contribution as if the participants were discussing the merits of Btritney Spears or American Idol. Such as "I just saw Fahrenheit 911 and it was the most pathetic excuse for a documentry (sic) ever." (end of post). No analysis of what the movie raises, not much about the leadership behavior under the microscope of the so-called "president" or of how the war effort has been so badly misconceived or bungled, not much to rebut what the movie has brought into the open, just glib partisan statements by members who come across as children.

Or am I looking at the wrong topics altogether? In the few minutes a day I have at ATS, if I wanted to see a reasonable critique of Fahrenheit 911 by members who have seen it rather than bullsh*tters, where would I look? Is there much concrete discussion going on? Maybe I am missing it. I miss what ATS had once.

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
Is there much concrete discussion going on? Maybe I am missing it. I miss what ATS had once.

You mean critical thinking, and thought out postings? It is okay for people to post their views, everyone is entitled to that, but (and I believe this is what MaskedAvatar is going after) many posts just boil down to childish insults, and no real thinking or investigating is actually happening. Not that this is happening in every topic, but most are degrading down to that.

Odd.

We are seeing Moore's film in an hour from now. But I had to turn around and return to my digs because magestica forgot the tickets - the first time that has happened during the Festival. She is human after all. We missed out on going to the gym as a result. Strange considering this is the film she most wanted to see.

For any Aucklanders wanting to say hi to MA and magestica we are front and centre in the circle. I am 6'5" and wearing a collarless shirt and dark green flecked jacket. magestica is wearing a pink blouse and grey jacket and looking fine.

Mossad and CIA representatives of ATS especially welcome.

As much as I love Moore and his work, I am not seeing a lot of critical thinking about it.

Instead I see, more often than not, simplistic viewpoints informed by nothing more than polarized, partisan chauvinism.

Here's a rule of thumb:

If you believe Michael Moore is telling the truth 100%, you are an idiot.

If you believe Michael Moore is lying 100%, you are an idiot.

Somewhere between these brainless extremes lies wisdom.

For extra credit: If you think the U.S. is 100% good, you are an idiot. If you think the U.S. is 100% evil, you are an idiot.

Seek the truth.

[edit on 7/20/2004 by Majic]

"Home" again.

Well these were eye-openers for me:

* the stalking tactics used by miltary recruiters in poor cities on US soil to reach their quotas
* the abject stupidity in the behavior of the undertrained segment of US military personnel in Iraq
* the poor driving technique of George W Bush given the 42% of his first eight months in office he spent on vacation golfing
* Lila Lipscomb and her sad visit to the Whitehouse
* the (not overly surprising) reaction of Congressmen to the "audacious" suggestion by Moore and Sgt Abdul Henderson that these people should enlist their children for service in Iraq (hard to believe that only one Congressmen had offspring there at any time in the filming?)
* the foolishness of Bush referring on camera to the "haves and have mores" at his fundraising dinner as "his base".

Interesting flow of ideas in the film, building a case. But the case is more for an incompetent administration than a criminal one. Personally, it is clear that Bush and the key figures in his administration are far more criminal than Moore deigned to indicate. There is more afoot than the graft and corruption of Cheney and Halliburton and the Carlyle Group and Arbusto and the Bin Laden family; these are just for people who are prepared to dip their toes in a sewer without intending to treat it.