NWO or Type 1 Civilization?, page 7

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reply posted on 16-10-2009 @ 09:19 PM by Amagnon

I have a lot to say on the subject - and just deleted a lengthy post in reply - I will try again.

I fully understand the NWO agenda - I developed basically an identical plan before the age of 20. At that time - I had no idea that the NWO existed and little about history or world events. My plan had a simple purpose - to unite humanity into a monarchic world government, eliminate religion and put all possible effort into science.

The processes I envisaged were almost identical to the current NWO - although my plan called for a great deal more death and violence.

So - I consider I understand the NWO methodology quite well.

All very well - if you get to run it. The other thing that disturbs me about the NWO plan - is that I am completely uncertain as to whether they have the same final stage of in their plan as was in mine, which was liberation - however, I included constant use of selective breeding, eugenics and genetic engineering, along with social engineering.

However, over many years I came to understand the power of cooperation, and education. The process is slower at first - but once a cultural change is made - it does not need enforcement. Education and financial incentives can also cause improvement in genetic material - without the need to resort to sterilization or killing.

The NWO plan is the same as my first plan - the problem is at the end, it requires a relinquishment of power. I think that is not possible without first educating and creating a sustainable culture. Also - I do not think it is possible for those who are in total control to relinquish that control. That I came to see as a flaw in my original plan.

So are we headed for a type I civilization? Not under the current forced globalization - no we are not.

We are instead headed for violent revolution, and possible destruction of the entire western society for little benefit.

The NWO might have noble end goals - but they will not be able to relinquish power - neither will they be able to create a true culture of empowered understanding. These failures will either lead to total destruction of social order ie. anarchy - or they will lead to an ongoing stunted result from humanities efforts, because of restrictions in education, especially in the field of holistic thinking - which would be dangerous to promote if you wish to retain control.

Globalization must occur through transfer of language and culture - through the destruction of fixed modes of thinking, expressly, beliefs. In the long term, I feel that religion must either cease to exist, or be relegated to a philosophical rather than practical domain - ie. no set moral codes or religious law, or physical practices such as prayer, or pilgrimages.

The tools to achieve successful globalization are already with us. Television, transportation and education are the tools that morally should be used to develop a global culture. While subset cultures can always be allowed to remain - a global civilization must live under a certain set of common values.

Common values must either be transportable across all cultural divides, or those cultural barriers must be slowly extinguished by contact and tolerance for other cultures. The only way to do it peacefully is to use a common language, and use mass media and education to promote common cultural values.

Transportation, and relocation can and must be used to force cultural integration of diverse groups. Groups with divergent values must be forcibly placed in limited areas, and stress applied. All the while - a consistent message of integration must be applied through mass media and education.

Divergent groups must not be allowed to exist in isolation, whether geographical or social. They must be forced into proximity and compromises must be attained within the over arching set of common values.

I would expect this process to take perhaps an 100 or more years if they were started today, and held it as a global priority.

At the base of this revised plan would be education in what I call holistic thinking - that is a process of inferential thought, that discards all belief.

Without a common set of values, then a global society is unable to function. You can set up every kind of system you like, but without some cultural commonality - it will lead to social unrest, resulting in either revolution or civil war.

As far as I am able to assess it - the NWO agenda does not manage to address that issue. Neither does it address the social divide that would be created by failing to set aside power.

So - again - the NWO are leading us to destruction - not utopia - and they must be stopped.

reply posted on 16-10-2009 @ 09:25 PM by SLAYER69

reply to post by Amagnon

Star for you.

Thank you for a well thought out response. There are a few things I disagree with but for the most part your opinion seems valid.

Thanks again.

reply posted on 16-10-2009 @ 09:40 PM by jam321

reply to post by Amagnon

Great Post.

Just curious.

How would a charismatic individual figure in all of this?

Guess what I am saying is if you believe that such a figure could make up for what the NWO fails to address?

Kinda like making people believe that the whole thing is possible. Blind faith.

Hope it makes sense.

reply posted on 16-10-2009 @ 09:48 PM by Amagnon

Regarding alien civilizations - that they exist is almost certain.

They may exist extra dimensionally to us - either by use of technology, or by natural law.

Energy consumption is a narrow way to define them - and I would consider it foolish to use as a measure. A better measure would be transportation, communication, investigation (sensors, science, mental processes) and physical capability (medicine, genetics, intelligence, weapons).

The measure of energy is a useful tool, as long as you only use it to compare the amount of energy - not try and define its source.

It is possible that an alien civilization could be billions of years more advanced than us. If that is the case, then it is certain that they have investigated our planet - and likely instigated or altered our course of creation and development.

The types of transportation they might use would likely be varied - the standard saucer craft is then more likely to originate from a terrestial or solar source - rather than being extra solar. This is just based on the idea that craft would be variable in type and dimension.

Large craft should also be expected - with sun or planet sized craft being entirely possible - down to microscopic craft that we may never detect - whether small in reality - or simply small due to weak interaction in our dimensions. Also craft that are ghost like and able to pass entirely through solid objects should not be discounted.

Our race may be the product of ET's in our entirety - whether as a computer simulation (high probability) or as an experiment (only slightly lower probability).

If alien civilizations exist - and it is almost certain that they do - then some at least are almost certainly aware of us. Whether they chose to interact is not our choice - but theirs - it seems unlikely we will detect them, unless they want us to. Unless of course they are fairly basic - like less than a thousand years more advanced.

If we search for them using electromagnetic radiation - then we are probably doomed to failure. They will most likely use some other method of communication - quantum entanglement, or field vibration - or access outside of our standard dimensions.

Faster than light travel seems very likely for an advanced civilization - and they possibly extra dimensional travel.

I also wouldn't rule out civilizations existing inside our solar system - especially the Sumerian tablet possibility of Planet X - it seems to have a fairly valid data set.

In short - our imagination is weak with regard to the endless possibilities an extra billion years of focused scientific thought might unlock.

reply posted on 16-10-2009 @ 10:13 PM by Amagnon

Originally posted by jam321
reply to post by Amagnon

Great Post.

Just curious.

How would a charismatic individual figure in all of this?

Guess what I am saying is if you believe that such a figure could make up for what the NWO fails to address?

Kinda like making people believe that the whole thing is possible. Blind faith.

Hope it makes sense.

While my last post probably offended the religious anyway - I wasn't going to mention that I feel the NWO are trying to use religion - specifically fundamentalist Christian, Islamic and Judaism as a means of control

This is really one of the major problems I have when I am am obtaining data points for their plans. It seems entirely possible that due to these religions having a common basis - or one God - that an attempt will be made to bring everyone into a mental state that is abhorrent to me - that of blind faith.

Then using mind control - and other either alien or high tech devices (and possibly psycho active drugs) they will create an impression that this single God has fulfilled all the requirements of each religion and has returned to Earth - or rather his physical messenger has returned.

If this is the case then it would be possible to unify the different religions and control them with a single 'divine' personage.

The reasons why I consider this abhorrent should be obvious - the basic premise is that thought will be an offense. It will be enslavement, not only physically - but of the human spirit. That part of man with which I have the highest affinity, being disbelief, and the endless question - would be extinguished.

Perhaps I give them too much credit - it is certainly an outrageous idea - but within the context of fanning religious extremism of all types, Christian within the US - and Islamic within the Arab states, and Judaism within Israel - it seems perhaps not such a far fetched concept.

So yes - I consider your 'charismatic personage' suggestion a possibility.

reply posted on 17-10-2009 @ 02:48 AM by plumranch

reply to post by Amagnon

I fully understand the NWO agenda

Please elaborate!

I only see the NWO agenda in the here and now. What do you perceive that they have in store for us?

reply posted on 17-10-2009 @ 08:57 AM by Amagnon

Originally posted by plumranch
reply to post by Amagnon

I fully understand the NWO agenda

Please elaborate!

I only see the NWO agenda in the here and now. What do you perceive that they have in store for us?

My meaning was I understand it conceptually - not necessarily the details - nor the final outcome. I mean I understand the principles needed to unite the world into a single government.

However, looking at the events and also drawing on some esoteric sources my conclusions would be;

They intend to create a globalist government - control will be based on ignorance and division, dependency, force and propaganda. These are the methods they have used so far - so, it seems most likely they will continue to use them.

Ignorance and division.

Over emphasizing differences, legislating, sensationalizing the following;

Religion, patriotism, undermining the principles of scientific thought, control of education at all levels, peer review of science, political correctness, false issues, polarized politics, intolerance, racism, sexism, feminism, extremism, social injustice, cultural segregation, immigration - many more.

Dependency

Financial systems, money, utilities, government assistance, social security, food distribution, regulation, population concentration, corporate farming, water control, invention of mental illness, use of additives to create sickness, culture of over consumption - and many more.

Force

Patriotism, culture of military superiority, culture of military support, defense spending, intervention, nuclear arsenal, intelligence spending, intelligence operations, sanctions, bribes, coercion, military bases, fleets and much more of course.

Propaganda

Use of all forms of media, paid experts, polarized false two sided arguments, censorship, infiltration into all nations, discrediting other sources eg, internet - many others.

At the moment the system of fiat money has hit a theoretical limit - it is at the point where debt expansion must increase in an almost vertical way - thus all the deficit spending. The monetary system is based on the creation of debt - without debt there is no money - without money then economies stop. The problem is that debt expansion is exponential - and now it has almost arrived at its vertical asymptote.

This isn't just a US problem - it is a global problem. The amount of debt far exceeds the value of all goods and services in the world - and the debt needs to be reconciled - however it is not possible without a total collapse.

SO, with the fiat money system about to self destruct. The problem is that the underlying assets are a fraction of the value of the debt - so that basically 90% of all debt is required to default - globally.

Obviously it is destruction of the entire financial system - as bad debt is reconciled - all the banks go bankrupt - and the world economy stops.

The globalists control the banks - in fact they are its main source of revenue - if the banks go out - then they are going to lose everything.

Obviously they detected this situation in advance - so they lowered interest rates gloablly and inveted ways to expand debt to its maximum level - to ensure the crash. Then as the economy contracts in deflation (as it must) loans against assets begin to default.

You must understand that the banks who make loans don't have the money they make a loan with - it is created out of thin air. Then that promise to pay you, is balanced against a real asset that you pony up. If you default - they get the real asset.

So the plan is to force as much default as possible by holding the global and US economy in deflation - this means all those assets are returned to the bank - effectively they are simply looting all the assets of the US and the world. I see no reason why they will not continue this looting spree for as long as possible - they will not want to resell the assets - because fiat currencies MUST be devalued - GLOBALLY - and soon.

This means real assets are commodities, real estate, resources and so on.

Once they have all the wealth in assets - then it is safe to pull the trigger and collapse the system. The so called 'toxic' assets and other accumulated assets will be moved OUT of those banks that are going to collapse - you have seen this as the Fed has taken on a lot of them - in the UK BArclays bank set up a subsidiary bank (Posiodon I think its called) to take all this so called toxic material.

When they crash the system - then all those assets should immediately appreciate - while the original host banks go under.

They will then effectively have stolen most of the worlds commercial and residential real estate.

After that they will probably impose as strong a government as possible - its possible they will force a merger into NAFTA for the America's. The IMF will be granted the authority to issue currency for the western world - a new fiat system will start from the ground up.

This is wholesale theft - then reorganization of nations and governments.

If you want to benefit and survive - get as many credit cards as you can - then spend it all on gold and silver (edit:use cash advance! ) - hide it - then go bankrupt. Obvuiously you need to be in a certain position to do this - ie. you are basically bankrupt anyway.

Also - if you have a house or something - defend the repossession in court - chances are they wont have authority - or wont have the paper work.

Gold and silver will be worth a lot - plus you will have taken some money from the banks at least. With gold and silver - there should be no way for them to prove you own it.

This is just my theory - no idea on time frame - and dont blame me if Im wrong

[edit on 17-10-2009 by Amagnon]

reply posted on 17-10-2009 @ 04:05 PM by plumranch

reply to post by Amagnon

I agree on most of your points.

The agenda is complex, mind boggling, some tactics are in broad daylight, some hidden.

Makes you wonder where TPTB are hiding. But I suspect they are hiding right out in the open.

You hint that aliens are somehow involved and maybe it was more than a hint. But I believe that is the case as I really can't believe that a group of humans could be so well organized to bring about world control which seems to be the goal.

I see it as off world types or individuals that have been here a long time but are far superior to the humans they are subjugating. I don't even think they get together with a room of say Bilderbergers and Rothschields and discuss tactics. I think it is more like mind control as you mentioned. Something very advanced.

And no, I don't have any direct proof but in my mind that scenario is the only one that fits the system.

reply posted on 24-10-2009 @ 10:45 PM by Type1Civ

It's been very fulfilling reading through this entire thread; it's not easy to find a group of people actively debating the pros and cons of a Type 1 Civilization (T1C) and how it contrasts and compares with a NWO. As many of you have expressed, the notion of a T1C can go beyond Michio Kaku's definition, or even Kardashev's energy consumption scale. A Type 1 Civilization would entail a vast re-imagining of many aspects of our society, and most difficult of all, replacing the institutions that keep us stuck in this stagnant status quo.

While scientific and technological progress (including those technologies that are kept from us) has been rapidly advancing, we have not been allowed as a society to adapt to these changes so that we may cope with the vast amounts of information we now have access to. Clinging to ideologies that do not account for rapid scientific and technological development can be dangerous. The cognitive dissonance that can arise from not knowing how to deal with all this information can manifest itself into many faces, most common of which are apathy and acquiescence. Most people either do nothing, or follow blindly. A few, but a crucial few, realize that neither of these choices will do. Not now. Not anymore.

We've heard for decades that a new dawn for humanity is approaching. Michio Kaku or Kardashev were not the first to make predictions that this or that generation would be the one to transcend into a technological utopia. However, the mere fact that we are discussing this very topic, with the Internet as a medium, points to the presence of unique, new elements in the equation. We are now, for the first time in history, equipped with the necessary tools to steer clear of a future that seems exceedingly grim. If we are to make it to a Type 1 Civ, we have to cease being mere passengers, and take the reins from our drivers if we are to avoid plunging into oblivion.

Slayer, thanks for starting this thread, and allowing for this conversation to take place. Like you mentioned, it doesn't matter if we agree or disagree, just as long as a meaningful and productive debate comes from this. As such, I would like to invite you all to visit our website, where we have attempted to envision how a path to a Type 1 Civilization might be drawn, and how such a society would operate. Any allusions to spiritual terms are meant to be metaphorical or allegorical. I urge you all to nitpick, criticize, deconstruct and analyze everything and anything contained within the texts. Any and all criticism is encouraged, for it is a collective issue that requires collective answers. We are all a part of this debate. This is our future we're talking about after all, and if not ours, then our children's, and if not theirs, then their children's. We, the people, the ruled, cannot just sit idly by and let our proverbial masters dictate where we are headed; not without our knowledge, and not without our permission.

I thank you all for your patience and for allowing a new voice into your forum.

Type 1 Civilization

Whether you agree or disagree with the principles outlined on Type1Civ is irrelevant. That you have something to say though, is. Welcome to the discussion.

Again, thank you.

reply posted on 24-10-2009 @ 11:01 PM by SLAYER69

reply to post by Type1Civ

I thanks you for your contribution.

We've heard for decades that a new dawn for humanity is approaching. Michio Kaku or Kardashev were not the first to make predictions that this or that generation would be the one to transcend into a technological utopia. However, the mere fact that we are discussing this very topic, with the Internet as a medium, points to the presence of unique, new elements in the equation. We are now, for the first time in history, equipped with the necessary tools to steer clear of a future that seems exceedingly grim. If we are to make it to a Type 1 Civ, we have to cease being mere passengers, and take the reins from our drivers if we are to avoid plunging into oblivion.

There are going to be even more obstacles in our path than we have already overcome thus far IMO.

I honestly don't imagine a "Utopia" People will still be people and we will still squabble over things. But if we can get the killing and all the other more extremes of human behavior to a minimum we may have a shot at it.

Time will tell.

reply posted on 25-10-2009 @ 12:38 AM by duble0peter

One of my favorites...

This has always been one of my favorite topics. The achievement of Type 1 would be a great day for our civilization. But I also agree that this is still a bit difficult to achieve. Still, we probably will get there sooner or later.

I have been looking forward to colonization or other worlds like the moon and Mars, if you can no longer expand here on Earth then why not look for another planet to do it all over again. Who knows, we might even colonize Europa from top to bottom

Once again, great topic!!!

reply posted on 6-3-2010 @ 09:44 AM by SLAYER69

Originally posted by nenothtu
A global society would likely go in the majority direction, if it were truly under a majority rule. What "they" have NOW, is likely what WE would have THEN.

There are what, around 6 billion voices currently with a say in the matter? I can't imagine a system that would be found satisfactory by EVERYONE.

STAR...

I believe we are headed towards a one world government. I think the only way to have any say in it is to work for it from the inside. It will never satisfy everybody. Yes the Majority will rule. There will always be somebody who feels they got cheated.

Such is life.

reply posted on 6-3-2010 @ 09:53 AM by SLAYER69

I'm reposting the original video.
The one in the opening post had it's link cut.

YouTube Link

reply posted on 6-3-2010 @ 10:03 AM by SLAYER69

Originally posted by jam321
The learning English part opened my eyes. I never thought that foreigners may be learning English in order to create a common language throughout the world.

I have always been under the impression people from other countries were learning English in hopes of getting employed by American companies that had set up their country in order to earn more money..

But now that I think about it, I have run into many foreigners who have a pretty good foundation of basic English. They tell me that they are learning it form schools in their home country. Of course, all the ones I have run into are rather young.

Kinda Ironic how God separated humankind by language and location and now humankind may reverse what God did. I know not everybody believes the bible, but interesting nonetheless.

Genesis 11:7

“Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech”

Genesis 11:8-9

“So the lord scattered them abroad from hence upon the face of all the earth and they left off to build the city. Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from hence did the lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth”

Well a universal language is just one part of the whole. I think the internet will do more for global harmony than some political leader spouting more of the same.

What I'm waiting for is not just an online word or sentence translator but a website that has one built in. You specify which language you understand best then it automatically translates French, German, Russian or Swahili posters contributions into your native tongue and visa versa.

reply posted on 6-3-2010 @ 10:55 PM by Sonata

reply to post by SLAYER69

Humans are at 1 cosmological percentile to their true potential before they become quntaxial(multivectric {(5L)+(5t1)+(5T2)+(5T21)}/[(1/2)(1/2)(1/2)]>,I,R'/N/A = x,y,z*1 a,b,c*2 1,2,3*3 2~/n*4 5S!$U*5

*1 spin rate
*2 vector crossing
*3 lattice
*4 alternating axis
*5 Plane of Summetry

At 5 million years since bipedals humans are at 1% it will take them much longer for longer periods of time. Their ultimate life span unto the last bipedal is lasting length of 995 million more years. 'Homo-sapien' will last for 50,000 more years before giving rise to 'homo-scientificus' their natural genetic successory, humans will begin only producing 'homo-scientificus' instead of 'homo-sapien'. 'Homo scientificus will last for 1 million years then give rise to 'homo-cuminicus' cuminicate through verbal and motion syntax.

Humans will never leave this planet because they will never have the ability to not need to drag a gravidic envirnment with them and not a completly artificial one with them. Basicly just a bubble traveling through space not large chunks of metal or any physical properties only folding tetrohedron lattices known as a point group.

In 5 million more years you have what you call your 'greys' and onward to 'duplicators' 75 million years later iq of only about 47 thousand but collectivly individualy it decreases by a factor of however many seperate( units they have only connected into one mass do they get so smart but at the cost of immense energy to themselves. flying brain matter that reform all other brain matter to their specifications but only similar species - they float through space at about 14 times the speed of light but in terms of nano seconds but seconds so they can go 800 times faster than light but enough to move in a galaxy.

around 300 more million years you have what we call 'photovailent recepticons' electrostatic crystaline silicate floaters that roam space inside blue spectrum cosmic strings.

Spectrobians are the last in the long line of scentient erectiles - beings that are arranged horizontaly not verticly before the transition into multivectrics.

Around 100,000 seperate scentient species arise from humans and around 100 trillion different individuals. Humans are one step of species in the line of over 100,000 on the path towards a multi vector existance there path is no different from anyone else.

life goes on forever in the universe it always has, had, and will. Humans cycle is no different than anyone elses from the {[100(1000)],100 trillion} = is one number and adding another 100 trillion with one hundred thousand zeros after it number of other species(yes species not even individuals) that are more advanced than them. Humans have no idea how small they actualy are just compared to the rest of the things in just this universe not even counting the 10(100 zeros) number of other universes. Just in this solar system alone 100 trillion unique scentient beings predicate in just a 2.5 billion year time span and 100,000 seperate scentient species. 1 out of every 4 star systems creates intellegent life 2 out of every 4 can create some life, 3 out of 4 contain habitat, 4 out of 4 all are eventualy inhabitable sometime in their time frame but not always for the period needed on average around at least 1.8 billion total years like clockwork is about the time a species can eventualy evolve to the point of leaving the restrictions of a solar system and begin to live simply of any raw material in space.

Alpha centuri has one habital planet its only one actualy. you see there is a rule in the universe that there always has to be at least one planet of life bearing variety(needs at least nitrogen in some form but thats it). You cant detect the planet because it is blocked by x-rays and refracted y-rays because of an outer crystaline-silicate crust and a diamond inner layer - home of the chromatics - they are crystaline force in this vectric* of the universe

*Distance from initial source and end(time and location from the beggining and end of the universe. these are the only actual point of reference to tell actualy when and where you actually are. Our vectric for earth is V37/(111degrees)(076lattice)(18base light range)

Most advanced civilsations use at minimum optronic relayed cumincation - they shoot signals through the core of any main sequence star. Liquid colesing plasma produces micro helium in crystal form which allows for super fast conductivity through magnatised variance. Would accelerate a signal fast enough to instantainiusly anywhere in the universe. The signal is self-oscilating - it varies continiusly. you would need a crystal refractor - crystalised potasium chloride to break down the signal but still not readable with binary systems as memory imprints would be too high ie electric path the code ran on was multiple voltages higher by a factor of always at least 3. These codes are primarly used as location identifiers basicly all civilasations braodcast location vectroscope information to all passing by species - not so much identifing any people but letting someone know basicly where and when they currently were in the universe - all space bearing civilasations use their home stars as light houses to aid others in navigation.

Generaly only species from the same solar system will ever interact. Aliens arent isolationist of eachother - its just without genetic similarity there is nothing they would need from the other.

Also at a certain point for all societies much sooner than later resources simply become a second thought. raw materials like iron,hydrogen, or nitrogen in any state would be enough to do just about anything someone needed if they had the technology. By a process of molecular bonding to at least one holding pattern iron for example could be turned to any of the 1781 current elements on the table of temporal elements. after chemical 316 all remaining elements become super-molecules instead of elements of floating particles of electrons, protons and neutrons they become multispectral giving off multiple light spectrums because they are actualy complete molecules combined into one 'super-molecule.

For example element 1414 is called gravidica (2 co2 molecules, 1 nitrogen, 1 iron, 1 murcury) It is one of a few molecules with what you call natural spin cyclotron. Used in Floorodine creation.

reply posted on 6-3-2010 @ 11:01 PM by plumranch

reply to post by SLAYER69

Originally posted by jam321 The learning English part opened my eyes. I never thought that foreigners may be learning English in order to create a common language throughout the world.

2 reasons: As Michio mentions, Hollywood but the overall intrigue of the English speaking world, and the lack of competition by other languages, eg. French, German, Spanish, Russian, etc. And NOT because English is the easiest to learn, use or spell! LOL.

Well a universal language is just one part of the whole. I think the internet will do more for global harmony than some political leader spouting more of the same.

Kaku says the internet is just a worldwide telephone system and it certainly is a good effective and efficient system. Probably eventually the language barrier will be solved for most by complicated translation programs as you mentioned, Slayer. We certainly see worldwide participation here on ATS with its English stipulation. A potential limitation to this system are the censor efforts of countries like China and Iran for political reasons.

Kaku goes on to say that when we look out at the universe we don't see evidence of other type I civilizations although statistically they should the most common and most easily observed and obvious. Apparently Michio doesn't spend much time here on ATS!

reply posted on 8-3-2010 @ 02:38 PM by DrJay1975

Originally posted by Phage
It seems like a strange concept to connect energy utilization to technological advancement. While the technology necessary to capture all solar energy hitting the Earth would be advanced, the premise is that the civilization would require that energy (why capture it otherwise?). Is that a valid assumption? Use of energy at that level would seem to imply massive industrial needs. If not industry, what else would the power be used for? Supporting an enormous population? Maybe, but are these the directions a technologically advanced civilization would necessarily go? The idea seems to be humancentric. As humans we've shown that we like to multiply like crazy and build complex and energy hungry infrastructure. Perhaps other civilizations have less expansive and expensive goals and would never have the need for that much energy.

But let's talk about us. We're an ambitious race. Maybe we are going in that direction. But perhaps raw energy use is self limiting. Capturing and utilizing all of the Sun's energy which strikes the Earth and using it on Earth would wreak havoc with the climate. As it is now, most of the energy, the vast majority of it, is reflected and radiated back into space. If it is instead captured and used on the surface (doing whatever it is we are going to do with it), what happens to all that heat?. This has nothing to do with the greenhouse effect, that's small potatoes compared to what capturing all of the Sun's energy implies. Could a civilization capable of doing that actually survive their own success? It's easy to say that an advanced civilization could cope with the problem. Much easier to say than to actually deal with the laws of thermodynamics.

Kaku talks about self destruction through violence but he does not address this point. Even if we learn to get along, we can still be the cause of our own destruction (or retardation).

We are nowhere near being a type I Civ. Not only do we not have the technology to capture the Sun's energy, we have nothing to do with it all. We as a planet are using, on an annual basis,(with fossil fuels, nuclear power, and miscellaneous other power sources) about 10% of the Sun's power which strikes the Earth in one day. In other words, we are only using about 2.5/10,000ths of it, and we're trying as hard as we can.

[edit on 10/3/2009 by Phage]

I think you misunderstood. I recall the original program on the SCI channel. Kaaku was speaking about interstellar travel when speaking about Type 1,23, etc.... He didn't mean harnessing the power of a star in the literal sense, he meant the ability to create the energy output of a star in an artificial manner. His theory was that we'd be able to approach the speed of light with our space travel when we're able to do that.

It was also my understanding that the types worked as such:
Type I-Harness the energy of a planet
Type II-The energy of a star
Type III- Energy of a solar system
Type IV- Energy of a galaxy

SO the energy consumption issues was tied to the advancement of the civilization by virtue of the ability to travel and explore. A civilization that could harness the energy equal to an entire planets output could effectively explore it's own solar system. Etc....

Some of his prerequisites for Type 2 we've achieved, ion drive, nuclear power, antimatter.... So per his definition of type 2 we are on the cusp of becoming a type 2 civilization.

reply posted on 8-3-2010 @ 02:38 PM by DrJay1975

Originally posted by Phage
It seems like a strange concept to connect energy utilization to technological advancement. While the technology necessary to capture all solar energy hitting the Earth would be advanced, the premise is that the civilization would require that energy (why capture it otherwise?). Is that a valid assumption? Use of energy at that level would seem to imply massive industrial needs. If not industry, what else would the power be used for? Supporting an enormous population? Maybe, but are these the directions a technologically advanced civilization would necessarily go? The idea seems to be humancentric. As humans we've shown that we like to multiply like crazy and build complex and energy hungry infrastructure. Perhaps other civilizations have less expansive and expensive goals and would never have the need for that much energy.

But let's talk about us. We're an ambitious race. Maybe we are going in that direction. But perhaps raw energy use is self limiting. Capturing and utilizing all of the Sun's energy which strikes the Earth and using it on Earth would wreak havoc with the climate. As it is now, most of the energy, the vast majority of it, is reflected and radiated back into space. If it is instead captured and used on the surface (doing whatever it is we are going to do with it), what happens to all that heat?. This has nothing to do with the greenhouse effect, that's small potatoes compared to what capturing all of the Sun's energy implies. Could a civilization capable of doing that actually survive their own success? It's easy to say that an advanced civilization could cope with the problem. Much easier to say than to actually deal with the laws of thermodynamics.

Kaku talks about self destruction through violence but he does not address this point. Even if we learn to get along, we can still be the cause of our own destruction (or retardation).

We are nowhere near being a type I Civ. Not only do we not have the technology to capture the Sun's energy, we have nothing to do with it all. We as a planet are using, on an annual basis,(with fossil fuels, nuclear power, and miscellaneous other power sources) about 10% of the Sun's power which strikes the Earth in one day. In other words, we are only using about 2.5/10,000ths of it, and we're trying as hard as we can.

[edit on 10/3/2009 by Phage]

reply posted on 8-3-2010 @ 02:48 PM by Phage

reply to post by DrJay1975

This is not Kaku's theory.

It was proposed by Nikolai Kardashev in 1964. The scale is based on energy consumption and does not have anything to do with interstellar travel per se.

* Type I — a civilization that is able to harness all of the power available on a single planet — has approximately 1016 or 1017 W available.[2] Earth specifically has an available power of 1.74 × 1017 W (174 petawatts, see Earth's energy budget). Kardashev's original definition was 4 × 1012 W — a "technological level close to the level presently attained on earth" ("presently" meaning 1964).[3]
* Type II — a civilization that is able to harness all of the power available from a single star, approximately 4 × 1026 W.[2] Again, this figure is variable; the Sun outputs approximately 3.86 × 1026 W. Kardashev's original definition was also 4 × 1026 W.[3]
* Type III — a civilization that is able to harness all of the power available from a single galaxy, approximately 4 × 1037 W.[2] This figure is extremely variable, since galaxies vary widely in size; the stated figure is the approximate power output of the Milky Way. Kardashev's original definition was also 4 × 1037 W.[3]

en.wikipedia.org...

reply posted on 16-9-2010 @ 12:46 PM by SLAYER69

Giving this thread a shameless bump.

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