Stand WITH us for 9/11 Truth!

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
On the other hand, a person would need to be as stupid as a bag of hammers to not understand that planting secret controlled demolitions in a heavily occupied building was goign to get a lot of innocent people killed. What sort of propaganda would be needed to even convince thousands of co-conspirators that blowing up the WTC was necessary to begin with is beyond me.

How many threads to you need to see about cops helping each other frame people and cover up murders? We can find these people that have NO PROBLEM killing innocent people and then lying about it. What makes you think that the government cannot find people like that? They could even be recruited overseas and have no idea who they are really working for and why they are having such success.

Why 1000s? Since when does it take 1000s of people to take down a building? That number is nothing more than a straw man you made up.

Originally posted by Lillydale

How many threads to you need to see about cops helping each other frame people and cover up murders? We can find these people that have NO PROBLEM killing innocent people and then lying about it. What makes you think that the government cannot find people like that? They could even be recruited overseas and have no idea who they are really working for and why they are having such success.

You just refuted your own argument, The fact that we're seeing threads about "cops helping each other frame people and cover up murders" is proof right there that there'd be no way anyone could ever cover up somethign so monstrous as a 9/11 conspiracy for any length of time, particularly becuase it *is* such a monstrous conspiracy. Jeez, Bush can't even out a CIA agent without hordes of journalists tracing it back to him.

Why 1000s? Since when does it take 1000s of people to take down a building? That number is nothing more than a straw man you made up.

All right, since you're a glutton for punishment...I'm making an educated guess for argument's sake that it will take about an hour to rig a support beam up with explosives (ten mins per side, five mins to chain each side together with det cord). There were 39 supports per floor, times 110 floors, times two towers comes out to over 8500 man hours to complete, and that's presuming they were working 24x7, rather than off hours to avoid detection. Add that it'd take even more time to even bring the materials to the site and conceal them so that noone could find them once they were set up, that's easily over TEN THOUSAND man hours to complete.

It's obvious that the longer the explosives sat there, the more likely they'd be detected by the bomb dogs, so there's no way they could have been sitting there longer than, say, three months. Using those assumptions, at the very barest minimum, it would require almost 4500 people to pull off. So, the problem isn't that I'm making anything up. The problem is that YOU aren't thinking these conspiracy stories all the way through becuase the more real world details you flesh them out with, the more you'll realize how absurd they sound.

If you can slice and dice the figures differently so that they will still satify both your conspiracy stories as well as real world demands, be my guest.

Originally posted by trebor451

Originally posted by SPreston

posted by OmegaPoint
It is the right stand to take, and it is a powerful stand to take.

Join us, on the right side of history.

Thank you.

posted by GoodOlDave

That's a rather absurd statement to make. First of all, it's blatantly obvious you truthers are joining the fight with preconceived notions of coverups and conspiracies, so you aren't looking for the truth. You're looking to have your own particular conspiracy stories certified as being what actually happened, regardless of what the truth actually is. You *want* these conspiracies of yours to be true.

Second, you can hardly call yourself a movement since there are more theories on what the conspiracy is than there are recipies on how to cook an egg, One person says it's controlled demolitions, another says it's laser beams from outer space, a third says it's nukes in the basement, yet another says there wasn't even any planes at all, and you're all but getting into fistfights with each other over all this crap. I ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY GUARANTEE that if, say, it turned out there really were controlled demolitions, the "Lasers from outer space" people will steadfastly refuse to accept it and continue to protest.

Who here says I'm incorrect, raise your hands.

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Sure Dave; you are incorrect. Since many of the families of the WTC victims are all working tirelessly for a real investigation into 9-11; I will raise my hands.

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Since many of the 503 WTC 1st responders who were ignored by the 9-11 Whitewash Commission are still eager to testify under oath to the explosions and demolition they witnessed; I will raise my hands.

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Since that would necessarily entail a new real investigation so they could testify; I will raise my hands.

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Since actual justice for wrongs committed in some strange way absolutely turns you off; I will raise my hands.

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Since absolutely nobody responsible for protecting America and Americans has been punished for incompetence or dereliction of duty or treason; I will raise my hands.

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Since many of those responsible for protecting America and Americans have been actually promoted and rewarded for incompetence or dereliction of duty or treason; I will raise my hands.

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Since the 9-11 OFFICIAL STORY official fantasy tale is self-destructing so wonderfully; I will raise my hands.

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Since you just love to regurgitate stupid senseless strawman arguments such as laser beams from outer space again and again and again; I will raise my hands. Does that answer your question Dave?

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This has got to be the most childish and thoughtless post ever made by anyone anywhere.

Then why the heck do you post childish things all the time?
Hands up BOR Hands up EVERYONE

[edit on 7-10-2009 by Donny 4 million]

Originally posted by OmegaPoint
Hey Dave, what are your thoughts on the Zelikow post I made there, did you see it..?

I didn't view the video but I did read the text, yes. I agree with what Zeikow says. The United States was a completely different nation before the civil war than it was after the civil war. The United States was a complete different nation before world war II than it was after world war II. The United States was a complete different nation before Vietnam than it was after Vietnam. So, yes, it stands to reason that the United States would be a different nation before 9/11 than it would be after 9/11. Whenever some new major event occurs, the United States generally has to reorganize itself to deal with it and the reorganization is usually permanent. I can't see slavery ever coming back, and I doubt we'd ever abandon France to foreign invaders again, either.

How that necessarily translates to a secret gov't conspiracy, however, is a leap in logic I don't quite follow.

Originally posted by angelx666

Originally posted by OmegaPoint

love the rush of energy from this vid

There's been a lot of talk about "heroes" in the last few years. I submit that these are the real heroes to our republic -- men and women that are struggling to bring the truth to our people.

We should be honoring every single one of these individuals.

Originally posted by OmegaPoint
Hey Dave, what are your thoughts on the Zelikow post I made there, did you see it..?

History itself, as a type of trail, points to a "government plot", you can see that much right. It's not absolute proof, but it's very suggestive and DAMN SUSPICIOUS, don't you think? What do you honestly think about it, and please carefully review the Zelikow post above. Thanks for the feedback.

Spooks and paid mis--informants don't answer questions that will incriminate
their puppet masters. They won't even discuss WHO was Secretary
of FREAKING NON- DEFENCE on that TRAGIC day.
They try to cast the blame on elected officials instead.

Originally posted by Donny 4 million
Spooks and paid mis--informants don't answer questions that will incriminate
their puppet masters. They won't even discuss WHO was Secretary
of FREAKING NON- DEFENCE on that TRAGIC day.
They try to cast the blame on elected officials instead.

All right, the secretary of defense on 9/11 was Donald Rumsfeld. So what?

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
You just refuted your own argument, The fact that we're seeing threads about "cops helping each other frame people and cover up murders" is proof right there that there'd be no way anyone could ever cover up somethign so monstrous as a 9/11 conspiracy for any length of time, particularly becuase it *is* such a monstrous conspiracy. Jeez, Bush can't even out a CIA agent without hordes of journalists tracing it back to him.

So you are equating bad cops with the highest positions in government? I am not sure if you know this or not but it takes a great deal more intelligence and knowledge to be in the places of the people that would control something like 9/11. Beat cops are not as smart. I was just pointing out that Americans have no problem screwing over other Americans. I never said they were the brightest examples now did I?

All right, since you're a glutton for punishment...I'm making an educated guess for argument's sake that it will take about an hour to rig a support beam up with explosives (ten mins per side, five mins to chain each side together with det cord).

You are already assuming again so any math based on this is still just based on your imagination and therefore not really useful for anything other than knowing you can guess at things.

There were 39 supports per floor, times 110 floors, times two towers comes out to over 8500 man hours to complete, and that's presuming they were working 24x7, rather than off hours to avoid detection. Add that it'd take even more time to even bring the materials to the site and conceal them so that noone could find them once they were set up, that's easily over TEN THOUSAND man hours to complete.

OK! You just decided how they would have to do it and how long it would take to do it that way. Who is it that told you this is how it was done again?

I

t's obvious that the longer the explosives sat there, the more likely they'd be detected by the bomb dogs, so there's no way they could have been sitting there longer than, say, three months. Using those assumptions, at the very barest minimum, it would require almost 4500 people to pull off. So, the problem isn't that I'm making anything up. The problem is that YOU aren't thinking these conspiracy stories all the way through becuase the more real world details you flesh them out with, the more you'll realize how absurd they sound.

If you can slice and dice the figures differently so that they will still satify both your conspiracy stories as well as real world demands, be my guest.

Yeah, see the difference between us is that I am not going to insist that it happened one particular way and then base the rest of my math on that. You are just guessing and I could really care less about your guesses.

reply to post by GoodOlDave


You're not too bright then. What, was this guy Zelikow and the PNAC guys frick'n PSYCHICS or what? And how in the hell did this character, a professor of the manufacture and use of public myths get to be the executive director of the 9/11 Commission. How can you not follow the logic, or that the plans to invade Afghanistan and Iraq were speedily moving forward prior to 9/11, yet could not have been enacted without it? It's not a leap of logic at all to see that the 9/11 event, as a "catalyzing New Pearl Harbor" was an absolute neccessity, to fullfill the vision, and the plot. History points a finger in the direction of a government fomented and supported plot, either willfully permitted or made to happen on purpose, either way, it amounts to the same thing. You live in Zelikow's myth Dave.

Originally posted by GoodOlDave

Originally posted by Donny 4 million
Spooks and paid mis--informants don't answer questions that will incriminate
their puppet masters. They won't even discuss WHO was Secretary
of FREAKING NON- DEFENCE on that TRAGIC day.
They try to cast the blame on elected officials instead.

All right, the secretary of defense on 9/11 was Donald Rumsfeld. So what?

So what! Here is WHAT davo.
Who set him up.
Can you remember his name.
He shared the same title the same year.
Never mind that you answer for spooks and
dis- informants.
thanks davey, I feel your pain.

Originally posted by Lillydale
So you are equating bad cops with the highest positions in government?

No, I'm not. You are. When you posted, "How many threads to you need to see about cops helping each other frame people and cover up murders? We can find these people that have NO PROBLEM killing innocent people and then lying about it. What makes you think that the government cannot find people like that?" I necessarily take this as an analogy between crooked cops framing people and covering up murders and crooked gov't officials framing people and covering up murders.

Not that it matters, because they both contain the same fallacy- the more people who know about any such event, the exponentially more likely it's going to be exposed. Despite the super security surrounding the Manhatten project, it still wasn't enough to keep the Soviets from finding out about it.

You are already assuming again so any math based on this is still just based on your imagination and therefore not really useful for anything other than knowing you can guess at things.

Not true. If you even remotely attempt to introduce any "controlled demolitions" scenario into the mix you will necessarily have to take into account that a) the buildings were flipping HUGE, b) they were both heavily occupied. If your scenario cannot reconcile that there were many, many, MANY support beams that would need to be sabotaged, as well as having to perform said sabotage under the noses of the security, tenants, custodians, electricians, bomb dogs, etc, in the building, then your scenario is untenable, regardless of how much you want to believe in it.

The exact number of time and/or manpower needed may be debatable, but the fact that the known obstacles would require huge amounts of time, manpower, or time AND manpower, to overcome, is not for debate. I asked you before and I'll ask again- if you have a different idea of what it would require, then let's hear it.

Yeah, see the difference between us is that I am not going to insist that it happened one particular way and then base the rest of my math on that. You are just guessing and I could really care less about your guesses.

Then you are thoroughly wasting my time as well as yours here. You are attempting to present your conspiracy scenario to me, and I am merely pointing out the known facts while asking you how your scenario dealt with them. If you can't or won't, and would instead prefer to believe that some vague miracle occured and it all magically happened the way you're suggesting, then this tells me right away that, whatever your true motives are, a careful analysis of the events of 9/11 isn't what's driving it. You're simply putting forth your favorite scenario contrary to what the facts actually are, and only proves my original statement was corect to begin with.

You seem to forget that YOU are the one who is refuting what the 9/11 commission report says, so it therefore becomes YOUR responsibility to provide us with an alternative scenario which better fits the facts, and that means ALL the facts, not the one or two fringe details you enjoy talking about. It's fallacy, not the truth, that fears critique, as Patrick Henry once said.

Originally posted by Donny 4 million

So what! Here is WHAT davo.
Who set him up.
Can you remember his name.
He shared the same title the same year.
Never mind that you answer for spooks and
dis- informants.
thanks davey, I feel your pain.

All right, I give up- what was Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld's name and title?

You must be new here.

Originally posted by OmegaPoint

You're not too bright then. What, was this guy Zelikow and the PNAC guys frick'n PSYCHICS or what? And how in the hell did this character, a professor of the manufacture and use of public myths get to be the executive director of the 9/11 Commission. How can you not follow the logic, or that the plans to invade Afghanistan and Iraq were speedily moving forward prior to 9/11, yet could not have been enacted without it?

A) Zelikow didn't have to be psychic. He studied political history while in Harvard, and he above anyone else would understand how major events always change the political process of the US. I already gave you several documented historical examples (I.E. how US politics were different before the civil war than after the civil war) so if you still can't understand it then perhaps it's a subject matter that's a little above you.

b) Zelikow was nominated to be the executive director by Lee Hamilton, the same guy who made the "set up to fail" quote. If you're claiming to be someone honestly researching the truth behind the events of 9/11 then it was your responsibility to know that before you posted here. It only took me 30 seconds of Google searchign to find that out.

c) What "logic" or "plans" are you seeing, here? How we staged a false flag operation to invade that toilet of a country of Afghanistan? How it somehow benefits the United States policy to *not* plant WMD in Iraq after the invasion and have the whole world laugh at us? How we intentionally made Iran the most powerful and influential state in the region now that we knocked down Iraq? What retarded 13 year old kid came up with *that* plan to take over the world?

Dude, you're not seeing any secret conspiracies to take over the world. You're trying to take randomly occurring events and connect the dots to specifically form the pattern you want to see in it. Jeez, all you need to do is look at how the whole frigging muslim world went bananas when Denmark published those cartoons about Mohammed to understand that they're infested with a lot of hard core religious nuts. You don't need to look under rocks to find any secret conspiracies, the problem is right there out in the open.

So, go ahead and say that I'm stupid, or that I smell bad, or that I kick pregnant dogs, or whatever, if that's what it takes to make you feel better about yourself. I'm an adult so I really don't care. All I care about is if you can prove anything I'm saying here is incorrect, and if you can't, then anything else you could possibly say will be completely meaningless.

Originally posted by GoodOlDave

Not true. If you even remotely attempt to introduce any "controlled demolitions" scenario into the mix you will necessarily have to take into account that a) the buildings were flipping HUGE, b) they were both heavily occupied. If your scenario cannot reconcile that there were many, many, MANY support beams that would need to be sabotaged, as well as having to perform said sabotage under the noses of the security, tenants, custodians, electricians, bomb dogs, etc, in the building, then your scenario is untenable, regardless of how much you want to believe in it.

OK we know that many of the bomb sniffing dogs had been removed.

We know that there was a great deal of construction going on.

Do you know who was going in and out of the building?

Do you know what they were all doing and where they were doing it?

I know for a fact that these construction workers had no issues getting in and out of the building each and every day, twenty four hours a day. Do you know who they all were?

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
c) What "logic" or "plans" are you seeing, here? How we staged a false flag operation to invade that toilet of a country of Afghanistan? How it somehow benefits the United States policy to *not* plant WMD in Iraq after the invasion and have the whole world laugh at us? How we intentionally made Iran the most powerful and influential state in the region now that we knocked down Iraq? What retarded 13 year old kid came up with *that* plan to take over the world?

Dick Cheney et al. Those guys, that's who, the "Neocons" and it was quite obviously an abysmal failure, now, looking back in hindsight.

But if you cannot recognize a contextual historical framework here, which show a certain prescience, of things to come, then put on your glasses and take another LOOK!

"Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor".

Rebuilding America's Defenses: Strategy, Forces and Resources For a New Century
September, 2000

Project For A New American Century

GoodOlDave's Master

Philip D. Zelikow, Chief 9/11 Master Mythmaker as the Bush appointed Executive Director of the 9/11 Commission.

The idea of 'public presumption'," he explained, "is akin to [the] notion of 'public myth' but without the negative implication sometimes invoked by the word 'myth.'

Such presumptions are beliefs (1) thought to be true (although not necessarily known to be true with certainty), and (2) shared in common within the relevant political community."

An act of catastrophic terrorism that killed thousands or tens of thousands of people and/or disrupted the necessities of life for hundreds of thousands, or even millions, would be a watershed event in America's history.

It could involve loss of life and property unprecedented for peacetime and undermine Americans' fundamental sense of security within their own borders in a manner akin to the 1949 Soviet atomic bomb test, or perhaps even worse.

Constitutional liberties would be challenged as the United States sought to protect itself from further attacks by pressing against allowable limits in surveillance of citizens, detention of suspects, and the use of deadly force. More violence would follow, either as other terrorists seek to imitate this great "success" or as the United States strikes out at those considered responsible.

Like Pearl Harbor, such an event would divide our past and future into a "before" and "after."

The effort and resources we devote to averting or containing this threat now, in the "before" period, will seem woeful, even pathetic, when compared to what will happen "after."

Philip D. Zelikow

www.ksg.harvard.edu...

On the World Trade Center

"... if the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center had succeeded, the resulting horror and chaos would have exceeded our ability to describe it. Such an act of catastrophic terrorism would be a watershed even in American history. It could involve loss of life and property unprecedented in peacetime and undermine America's fundamental sense of security..Like Pearl Harbor, the event would divide our past and future into a before and after. The United States might respond with.."

~ Philip Zelikow, pre-9/11

Originally posted by OmegaPoint

Listen to him, at the 3:50 mark, through 4:44..

[edit on 12-10-2009 by OmegaPoint]

Originally posted by Lillydale

OK we know that many of the bomb sniffing dogs had been removed.

We also know that those were the NYPD dogs to reinforce the NYPA. The NYPA had their own permanent complement of dogs. One of them even died in the collapse. I think his name was, "Sirius". Whatever.

We know that there was a great deal of construction going on.

There was construction going on in the WTC all the time!. This construction would have been entirely in the tenant areas, not in any of the structural areas where these controlled demolitions of yours had to have been planted, and the construction personnel would have been known by the tenents, not simply just show up out of nowhere.

Do you know who was going in and out of the building?

Yes I do. 50,000 tenants, security officers, tourists, and support personnel. It was an *occupied* building. That's what makes your controlled demolitions scenario far fetched right there. All these peopel were wandering throughout every corner of the buildings and *noone* noticed *anything*?

I know for a fact that these construction workers had no issues getting in and out of the building each and every day, twenty four hours a day. Do you know who they all were?

No, but the NYPA would have. Ever since the WTC bombing attack security was beefed up so that all construction personnel brought in by the tenants had to be cleared by the NYPA first. After 1993 people trying to sneak in and plant bombs is exactly what their security *expected* to happen, and were specifically looking out for.

So do I take it that your entire belief that there were controlled demolitions is becuase you simply just ASSUME saboteurs snuck into into the towers and planted CD without being discovered, without even a microbe of evicence to back it up? You're not exactly proving me wrong when I say that you subscribe in these conspiracies becuase you want them to be true.

reply to post by GoodOlDave


All you did was say a lot of unconfirmable things. You have no idea who went in and out on a daily basis. You have no idea how intimate tenants were with the construction crews. An entire floor was shut off and not one tenant knows what they were doing but they know something was happening. So much for all the tenants knowing all the construction guys. My good friend renovates houses for a living. His crew changes at a moments notice. His clients never know who is going to be there. They simply know to trust the guy with the tool belt when he shows up in a truck. You expect me to believe that these 50,000 people were on a first name basis with everyone working in there and knew their history and whether or not they could be trusted not to be planting bombs????? This would include the workers on the closed floor that no one knew. People come and go 24 hours a day there and you have no clue who was allowed in and where they were allowed to go or where they were able to get. It is nice that you think you do but you really did not say anything true. All you did was present your stylized idea of how things work there. Come back to the real world for a minute. You will see how often your government lies to you.

Originally posted by Lillydale
All you did was say a lot of unconfirmable things. You have no idea who went in and out on a daily basis. You have no idea how intimate tenants were with the construction crews.

Already I can sense the desperation in your posts. You're all admitting that you're guessing and makign things up about peopel sneakign in and planting controlled demolitions, for the obvious reason that YOU have no idea who went in and out on a daily basis. that's the problem for you right there, as the vast majority of peopel who worked in the building *survived* and they definitely would have reported something amiss during the days that led up to 9/11.

You and I both know they didn't...becuase if they did, it'd be plastered on every 9/11 conspiracy board in creation.

An entire floor was shut off and not one tenant knows what they were doing but they know something was happening. So much for all the tenants knowing all the construction guys.

First of all, no tenant ever would know what was going on in another tenants area, in the WTC or any other building for that matter. It's not their responsibility to know. Second of all, the NYPA WOULD know becuase it's their building and they would definitely be watching what the tenants were doing, to make sure they followed code. Third, this construction would have been entirely in the tenants area, not in any of the core areas where the support beams were.

All you did was present your stylized idea of how things work there. Come back to the real world for a minute. You will see how often your government lies to you.

In short, when your conspiracy stories can't get around inconvenient facts, you simply play pretend they don't exist. Is this really what you're telling me?

The things I'm pointing out to you are real world, irrefutable facts which you necessarily have to take into account when you're concocting these controlled demolitions stories of yours. It isn't being stylized there two WTC towers, it isn't being stylized they had 110 floors, and and it isn't being stylized they were heavily occupied. The only person making stuff up here is you.

Originally posted by GoodOlDave

Originally posted by Lillydale
All you did was say a lot of unconfirmable things. You have no idea who went in and out on a daily basis. You have no idea how intimate tenants were with the construction crews.

Already I can sense the desperation in your posts. You're all admitting that you're guessing and makign things up about peopel sneakign in and planting controlled demolitions, for the obvious reason that YOU have no idea who went in and out on a daily basis. that's the problem for you right there, as the vast majority of peopel who worked in the building *survived* and they definitely would have reported something amiss during the days that led up to 9/11.

Every time I think I have corrected the last person on how they read my text...anyway. I am not making anything up because I never actually claimed that I know people sneaked in and planted explosives.

The problem is that

A - you assume that everyone that worked there knew everyone else that worked there and they all knew exactly what every other company was doing all the time, including any construction???????

B- people did report strange goings on leading up to 9/11; namely - construction they did not know the reason for.

Originally posted by Lillydale
The problem is that

A - you assume that everyone that worked there knew everyone else that worked there and they all knew exactly what every other company was doing all the time, including any construction???????

B- people did report strange goings on leading up to 9/11; namely - construction they did not know the reason for.

A) I never said any such thing and I invite you to post where I said any such thing. What I *said* is that the WTC operated the same way that ever other skyscraper operates- each floor was maintained by the specific tenant, and the caretaking of the building itself was taken care of by a full time staff of building maintenance. The tenants would have known everythign that was going on in their own floors, and building maintnance would know everything that was going on in their own maintenance areas. No work in the tenant area could ever be done without the approval of building management, and any strangers showing up out of the blue attempting to do mysterious maintenance would have been immediately spotted. This is universal and written in stone, regardless of whatever it is you want to theorize or assume.

Here's a partial list of the technicians and engineers employed at the WTC complex, along with their stories. Please point out which one of these guys let the controled demolitions saboteurs into the building-

Engineers of the WTC

B) I can tell right away you're getting this bit from those damned fool conspiracy web sites you frequent. Please provide even *one* example where "peope were reporting strange construction noone understood". The only instnace I'm aware of is that IT guy who reported an upgrade of the pwer cables on his floor, requiring him to shut down and turn on his servers. We know what that maintenance was for becuase building management told him what it was ahead of time, and he said himelf that the workers weren't acting mysterious or trying to hide what they were doing.