Point Blank: Is there a God, why and why not?

it says, he created the universe by speaking it into existence (i.e. with sound)



he endowed us with creative abilities as well. we just haven't fully realized or explored them yet.

contemplating god requires removing yourself from your current frame of reference. it also requires you not assume anything into the text that it doesn't say. for example, it says the heavens and the earth, but does it mean just our local system? there are alot of systems out there.



i'm gonna suggest you don't have enough evidence to either rule out god or insist he exists, without making a concentrated effort to contact him.

There is a god. It just is. It just exists like we exist.
Is immortality possible? I would say it is possible. If immortal jellyfish swarms the oceans in this little world of ours then who knows what might swarm the universe.


For example.
It's logical to assume that random events may happen only in a limited quantity, and probability makes up the rest. Who invented probability, probability is not an object but a law, just like the rest of the laws of the universe. Evolution is only material, what about the none material things like probability.

The "evolution is all and god does not exist" fails when things like this come in to view. Things that do not have shapes, legs and so on.
It's hard to deal with thoughts, logic, laws and then say god does not exist.
All of this things are out there and they and are real, there are things we can touch with our hand and things that we can't . There is a material world and a none material world. One holds shapes and patterns like rocks , mountains, planets and evolution, the other holds laws, thoughts and other things that can't be seen and can't be touched with a human hand. Then why is it so hard for any of you to accept that there is a bigger force at work here, as we call it, a god.

I know there is a GOD just from the signs he has shown me multiple times in my life. The people who dont think he is real, I pray for their souls but they each have their own free will not to believe.

reply to post by Ophiuchus 13


would you like to talk about the signs that you have seen, or is that a little too personal?

Nobody can irrefutably prove or disprove whether there is a God and God exists. Thus, arguing from the point of logic and reason is futile.

We will hopefully put this issue to rest when we die

[edit on 21/9/2009 by Dark Ghost]

Originally posted by Psycontagious
IMO, there isn't any evidence proving that people go to this 'hell' just because they don't believe in God. So, if you do absolutely nothing wrong and in fact the opposite during your life, but you don't have faith in God, you get to suffer for eternity? Really? Does anyone really deserve to suffer for eternity?

Just sounds like brainwash to me....

Flaws in Christian dogma does not exclude the existence of a God.

In the millions of years that humans have lived on this planet, they have worshiped a creator. To think that a group of people that have lived for mere seconds in the history of mankind know the truth, whereas countless civilizations before were all wrong is absurd.

In my opinion, studying only modern religion leads one to atheism, since there is flaw after flaw after flaw. There is and can be only one Creator of the Universe. The error we humans make is in letting our egos insist to everyone else that "He" pays attention only to us (and not His other children).

I believe that God is much more ancient. He existed before long before Christianity, before the Egyptians, before the Celts. Once we forget modern religion, and see God as a truly ancient being, that has been acknowledged by countless civilaization before us, then the holes in religion fall away, and the modern day arguments against the existence of God simply don't work anymore.

reply to post by Saurus


'The universe is expanding into pre-existing space... '


Is it? or did space / time begin when the universe began?

I agree that our total lack of understanding of infinity and what happened 'in the beginning' negates most speculation on the subject.

However from a mathematical perspective, probability does dictate that less complex things are more likely to exist out of nothing.

I am saying that God could exist, but probably not.

There is a God and he is a gracious, kind and just God. He even gives you a choice for your eternal soul.. to kneel before him or burn in hellfire for eternity. Only a just and gracious Lord would give us such a choice. Praise the Lord.

reply to post by Unsane


From a mathematical/physics point of view, life should not exist at all.

Life completely defies the second law of thermodynamics, since the entropy of living creatures is tiny. We are almost perfectly ordered beings.

And yet, while physics tells us that life is almost absolutely improbable/impossible, it exists. Can we really rely on probabilities?

[edit on 21/9/2009 by Saurus]

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
Nobody can irrefutably prove or disprove whether there is a God and God exists. Thus, arguing from the point of logic and reason is futile.

Not true. The ability to prove the existence of God depends on the definition of God.

Example: Define God as something that made matter out of nothing.

Then, God exists, since matter exists. If certain chemical processes caused matter to be created out of nothing, then those chemical processes are God, according to our definition. Thus, in this case, we have a creator, which exists as certain chemical processes. God can make another universe by repeating these processes.

Whether or not we can prove His existence depends on our definition.

As a creator, God exists, since matter exists. Proved and sealed. We must however, then allow our definition of God to expand to the possibility of being chemical processes which occured, rather than an entity.

God, the creator is proved. However, once we see Him as an entity that created something, He is no longer proved.

Whether or not we can logically prove God depends on our definition of God. The blanket statement: "Nobody can irrefutably prove or disprove whether there is a God and God exists" is false in many cases.

[edit on 21/9/2009 by Saurus]

reply to post by ineverknew


I do not believe in a god of any form. For an infinite god to be a possibility, an infinite universe is more likely.

The way I consider it is, it seems impossible for an all knowing all powerful intelligent entity with magical powers that break the laws of physics of the universe to exist.

I also believe it's impossible to have an infinite amount of causes and that somewhere amongst those causes our universe came into being by going boom.

So, this leaves only one logical conclusion, our universe is eternal and just exists and exists as the laws of physics dictate. Light has a very specific set of rules that our universe dictates it must follow and can't break, so the argument of infinite light and visible objects from infinite distances are thrown out as hogwash, it's not possible because it asks light to break the laws it is bound by.

All the current theories we've developed are based upon the assumption that the universe HAD to have a beginning, from religion to science.

Science says big bang, but we see fully mature high density galaxies at the beginning of the universe. That tells us the big bang is wrong or that the laws of physics as we understand them are wrong, or that they magically change whenever they feel like it.

Religion claims an eternal god and yet says an eternal universe is not possible, that is just admitting to being a hypocrite. All concepts of magical deities were born right here on good old planet earth. Other species out in the cosmos will have different gods and beliefs if they even develop religion on their home-worlds.

If we objectively look out at the cosmos, we don't see a progression of baby galaxies forming into mature galaxies. It just doesn't exist. This tells us that based on the speed of light from mature galaxies at a max range of 15BLY out, that is just the limit of what we can see with current technology. That is the max visible range of a much larger universe. We even see evidence of huge vast expanses of galaxies all moving towards one point in the cosmos, this tells us something larger is beyond our visible range. Yet instead of stating the obvious, we conjure up invisible forces that we've never seen nor observed as actually existing.

The universe is eternal and life didn't arise by chance. Chance is just a term for extant causes not recognized or perceived.

Originally posted by Saurus
reply to post by Unsane

 

From a mathematical/physics point of view, life should not exist at all.

Life completely defies the second law of thermodynamics, since the entropy of living creatures is tiny. We are almost perfectly ordered beings.

And yet, while physics tells us that life is almost absolutely improbable/impossible, it exists. Can we really rely on probabilities?

[edit on 21/9/2009 by Saurus]

To play devil's advocate (again), it is true that the chance of life on a random planet is infinitesimally small. However, since there are trillions of planets, chances of finding life on at least one planet is much higher.

No body here really knows if there is or isnt a GOD, all any of you can do is speculate. While some have had personal experiences and some havent. Me I dont know if one exsits or not, I like the idea of when you die you go to heaven, But I have seen ghost and such so I am not entirely to sure that heaven exsits. All we really know is we will find out when we die eh?

reply to post by Saurus


Ah, the 'second law of thermodynamics' argument. In fact, this is only applicable in closed systems, wheras life or evolution is an open system. For a fuller explanation read Here

Saurus - 'Can we really rely on probabilities? '

Unsane - Well, thats up to the individual to decide. In my opinion I think that we can. Book keepers base their businesses on probabilities, physisists base their theories on them, mathematicians base their formulae on them.

If we you do not rely on probabilites, would you bet against the sun coming up tomorrow?

No, because it probably will.

Originally posted by ineverknew
To play devil's advocate (again), it is true that the chance of life on a random planet is infinitesimally small. However, since there are trillions of planets, chances of finding life on at least one planet is much higher.

Yes, I agree, the chance of finding less complex life elsewhere in the universe is massive, due to the vast number of planets.

By that same argument, to an amoeba on another planet, the probability of finding something so advanced that it is beyond their comprehension (humans) is almost a certainty according to probabilities. And yes, we exist...

By the same argument, the chance of finding a life form that has advancement and power beyond our reckoning is equally probable.

Originally posted by ineverknew

Originally posted by Saurus
reply to post by Unsane

 

From a mathematical/physics point of view, life should not exist at all.

Life completely defies the second law of thermodynamics, since the entropy of living creatures is tiny. We are almost perfectly ordered beings.

And yet, while physics tells us that life is almost absolutely improbable/impossible, it exists. Can we really rely on probabilities?

[edit on 21/9/2009 by Saurus]

To play devil's advocate (again), it is true that the chance of life on a random planet is infinitesimally small. However, since there are trillions of planets, chances of finding life on at least one planet is much higher.

Buuuuuut, there is no such thing as chance. You can't look at a physical process governed by the laws of physics and say "since I don't know how that start of that process leads to the end result of that process, it must be chance."

For ever effect there is a cause and for every cause there is an effect. There is no such thing as chance.

Originally posted by Unsane
Ah, the 'second law of thermodynamics' argument. In fact, this is only applicable in closed systems, wheras life or evolution is an open system. For a fuller explanation read Here

The universe is a closed system, and the entropy of the universe increases.

Is it really possible that a closed system can contain within it a truly open system?

Can a finite space contain within it an infinite space?

I have always had a problem with this refutation.

It seems that people can arbitrarily assign systems as open or closed to explain thermodynamic inconsistencies.

Originally posted by Saurus

By the same argument, the chance of finding a life form that has advancement and power beyond our reckoning is equally probable.

Saurus, are you refuting your previous comment here?

Orginally posted by Saurus
Can we really rely on probabilities?

Hmm, seems like you want to use probability selectively...

Originally posted by Unsane

Saurus, are you refuting your previous comment here?

Which one?

Orginally posted by Saurus

Hmm, seems like you want to use probability selectively...

I'm just trying to show that if probability theory can be used selectively, it can be done so both ways.

[edit on 21/9/2009 by Saurus]

There is absolutely no evidence for or against God. Trust your instincts, what does your body tell you?

WHAT FEELS RIGHT TO YOU?

I believe in intelligent design, but not necessarily in a spesific God, though

most religions are based on the same principles which lets me to believe that

they are the correct ways of life.