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Are You Your Brother Keeper?

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posted on Aug, 19 2009 @ 09:48 PM
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Seems like Obama is invoking religion to help bring support to his healthcare plan.

Will it work?

President Obama appealed Wednesday to faith-based groups to help garner support for his plan to overhaul the nation's health care system.

"I need you to knock on doors, talk to neighbors, spread the facts and speak the truth,"




"These are all fabrications that have been put out there in order to discourage people from meeting what I consider to be a core ethical and moral obligation: that is, that we look out for one another; that is, I am my brother's keeper, I am my sister's keeper. And in the wealthiest nation in the world right now we are neglecting to live up to that call."


www.cnn.com...

President Obama, Americans are still losing their home. Where are thy brother?

President Obama, Americans can't find jobs. Where are thy brother?

President Obama, Americans are hurting all around. Where are thy brother?

If only Americans could change their name to AIG, only then will thy brother show up.


On a side note, How does this play in separation of state and church?

just curious.




posted on Aug, 19 2009 @ 09:59 PM
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reply to post by jam321
 




If only Americans could change their name to AIG, only then will thy brother show up.


or GOLDMAN SACHS.

Unfortunately, most people still don't know the real problems yet..nor do they really understand the ones they DO know, they're just angry. I think much of it is rollover from the bank bailouts and the stimulus package that has yet to seemingly make an impact.

The other factor is racism. People can deny it till they are blue in the face but it's true.

I think it's one of the main reasons why the corruption is finally coming to light. People are wanting to tear him down so badly that the entire system is being shown to be a sham.

People may think I'm wrong...but I think I'm right.



posted on Aug, 19 2009 @ 10:03 PM
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reply to post by David9176
 



The other factor is racism.


From who? Could you please define who is doing the racism? Your point sounds interesting especially considering many whites voted Obama.



posted on Aug, 19 2009 @ 10:11 PM
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reply to post by jam321
 





Your point sounds interesting especially considering many whites voted Obama.


Absolutely...and i'm not speaking for all people when I stated that. I believe that it comes out as people are looking for something to blame for things going wrong. If things were going well right now..the heat wouldn't be as high obviously.

I just spent a few days in my home state. I had a relative say that (he/she) thinks they are turning into a racist because they hate Obama so much.

It's true man. I'm not saying you are nor anyone else here on ATS is that way...not at all...but I do think it's true for many people...even those who voted for Obama.

Race is a factor and it always will be..it's sad...but it's true.



posted on Aug, 19 2009 @ 10:15 PM
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Obama sure didn't help his own brother, who was living in a shack in Kenya. But because of Mr. Obama, his brother is working on a book deal. Maybe his brother knows where he was actually born?

I wonder how many late night sessions in the White House it took to come up with the religious factor? It's amazing when people are in serious trouble that they turn to religion.



posted on Aug, 19 2009 @ 10:18 PM
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reply to post by David9176
 


I know you weren't talking about me. And like you, I do believe there is some racism in some of this. However, I just don't think it is bad as you think.

I agree people are finding someone to blame. Unfortunately for Obama, the President gets most of the blame during a bad economy.

IMO, if Obama had focused on the economy and revived the economy, his healthcare plan would have passed in a New York minute. People care less when things are all rosy.



posted on Aug, 19 2009 @ 10:25 PM
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reply to post by jam321
 





IMO, if Obama had focused on the economy and revived the economy, his healthcare plan would have passed in a New York minute. People care less when things are all rosy.


Well I think much of the problem is that they passed a couple 1000+ page bills before this healthcare and now we have...what is it...3? versions of healthcare written by God knows who...

If he had tried doing healthcare first...he (and by he I mean Liberals who wanted a single payer option) may have gotten it.

This whole thing was set up for failure IMO.

I'm not saying I'm for single payer either...but whatever bill passes will be garbage...I guarantee it.



[edit on 19-8-2009 by David9176]



posted on Aug, 19 2009 @ 10:40 PM
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I agree with him. I just don't agree that government should be forcing such a thing. Being your brother's keeper by your own free will is a beauty like few others. Being your brother's keeper by government law is fascism pure and simple.


None the less, I'm a socialist and want a single payer system because I don't think people's lives should be an object of corporate involvement.


But on another not, this is the wealthiest nation? Yea right, not anymore. We're freaking strong in name only.



posted on Aug, 19 2009 @ 11:36 PM
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Originally posted by Gorman91
I agree with him. I just don't agree that government should be forcing such a thing. Being your brother's keeper by your own free will is a beauty like few others. Being your brother's keeper by government law is fascism pure and simple.


None the less, I'm a socialist and want a single payer system because I don't think people's lives should be an object of corporate involvement.


But on another not, this is the wealthiest nation? Yea right, not anymore. We're freaking strong in name only.


Why are you complaining about how poor the country is? that's a direct result of your "oh we have to help the poor" mentality.



posted on Aug, 19 2009 @ 11:37 PM
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Originally posted by David9176
reply to post by jam321
 




If only Americans could change their name to AIG, only then will thy brother show up.


or GOLDMAN SACHS.

Unfortunately, most people still don't know the real problems yet..nor do they really understand the ones they DO know, they're just angry. I think much of it is rollover from the bank bailouts and the stimulus package that has yet to seemingly make an impact.

The other factor is racism. People can deny it till they are blue in the face but it's true.

I think it's one of the main reasons why the corruption is finally coming to light. People are wanting to tear him down so badly that the entire system is being shown to be a sham.

People may think I'm wrong...but I think I'm right.


I am so fing sick of hearing about "racism" when the real racists are the damn Presidnet and all his marxists and liberation buddies.

From the first day of this administration it's been one racist assault on this country by him or his people after another.



posted on Aug, 19 2009 @ 11:47 PM
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Originally posted by David9176
reply to post by jam321
 





IMO, if Obama had focused on the economy and revived the economy, his healthcare plan would have passed in a New York minute. People care less when things are all rosy.


Well I think much of the problem is that they passed a couple 1000+ page bills before this healthcare and now we have...what is it...3? versions of healthcare written by God knows who...

If he had tried doing healthcare first...he (and by he I mean Liberals who wanted a single payer option) may have gotten it.

This whole thing was set up for failure IMO.

I'm not saying I'm for single payer either...but whatever bill passes will be garbage...I guarantee it.



[edit on 19-8-2009 by David9176]


My problem in this is that is that much of the DIS-INFO spread by the industry is an attempt to screw the whole endeavor. You put enough mud in the water and you will never be-able to see the gold.

People say the government is incompetent, I KNOW the system is abusive, greedy and out of control, but at the end of the day we are selling ourselves short.

Just from a legal aspect and financial one we lose...

"REFORM" could mean tax incentives, tougher fraud laws civil and corporate...

Hell there are many things we can address here, just in the legal realm which would not cost a dime.

This whole debate has been destroyed at our cost by US. (with plenty of help from the industry)

Meanwhile, the industry is throwing big money to make it a for or against concept in hopes that the whole thing fails and rots away...

Here are some legitimate things REFORM could address as fraud -

For example; Multiple testing with each specialist -


basically you get SAME tests FIVE fricking times, INSURANCE POOL PAYS 5 times

YOU/Insurance pool gets charged FIVE times just to discover different things that are visible on all five tests.

OR; putting CAPS on the amount of procedures a doctor can preform in one visit.

The chiropractor I work for gets paid $1 more for all the procedures after she does TWO under KAISER OP.

SO if a patient needs six things done to address the diagnosis properly, the doctor
will only get paid ONE DOLLAR to do the four other procedures.

This means that she basically does it for free or she does not do it in order to keep her practice open... So patient gets screwed sometimes, Doc gets screwed, I get screwed on my wages, KAISER inflates the cost and they bill the insurance pool double or triple
what Kaiser paid for the doc to perform.

???? WTF ????

I see it on every bill I submit -

Example; Insurance pays DOC $40.00 regardless of what she does in order for her to be in their network. To be in her network they make her work for a discounted rate.

BUT on the claim form I send in so she gets paid I put the procedures as...

98910 - 75.00
98912 - 25.00
98916 - 55.00

PER Kaiser OP
=$155.00 -----

but after her provider rate is applied she BILLS Insurance for $40.00 and pockets the $10.00 CO PAY.

The insurance Company on the CLAIM FORM sates - THE PATIENT got 155.00 worth of time and attention...

Ah but Doc only got $50.00

And Kaiser PROVIDED $155.00 of care


SO I understand LESS GOVERNMENT and all, but the direction this whole thing has gone the above example will go on and on and on...

The system has the DOCS, PATIENTS by the nuts.



[edit on 19-8-2009 by mental modulator]



posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 12:04 AM
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Originally posted by David9176
reply to post by jam321
 





IMO, if Obama had focused on the economy and revived the economy, his healthcare plan would have passed in a New York minute. People care less when things are all rosy.


Well I think much of the problem is that they passed a couple 1000+ page bills before this healthcare and now we have...what is it...3? versions of healthcare written by God knows who...

If he had tried doing healthcare first...he (and by he I mean Liberals who wanted a single payer option) may have gotten it.

This whole thing was set up for failure IMO.

I'm not saying I'm for single payer either...but whatever bill passes will be garbage...I guarantee it.



[edit on 19-8-2009 by David9176]


6 Versions



posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 12:21 AM
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reply to post by mental modulator
 





6 Versions


Cripes. WTF are they thinking? After the other gigantic bills that have passed that many people did not back were passed through without being read...now this?

I understand many of the problems as showed in your previous post. Everything is a mess. I'm not necessarily against universal health care...I just don't want to go the government route.

This is what I don't understand...

If we know government is corrupted by corporate power...then why should we trust them to pass anything legit now?

IMO, before any real debate can be made, corporate influence has to be gone in government or anything that passes will be tainted.

As I stated earlier....people know government is corrupt...they just don't know why.

You'll never see anyone in the MSM criticizing CEO's and their stockholders. Hell, Fox News makes CEO's look like great guys....but MSNBC and CNN won't demonize each other either...unless it's for ratings.

I don't see any CEO's from the health insurance industry out in the media saying they want the best for everyone. It's BS...and it's time we all wake up to it.

People will always have the right to live as far as I'm concerned and I don't really give a damn if someone profits from it or not as long as it's done.

And there are lots of things that could be done...but you won't hear ANYONE..NO ONE....talk about breaking up the health insurance companies by enforcing anti-trust laws on them to kill the monopoly they have.

Until some leadership starts doing this we'll continue to go down the tubes.

I don't think you'll get single payer MM...I just don't see it happening...and if it does....it won't be what you want....if that is what you want? Not sure of what you feel about it.

I just feel we need campaign finance reform and a whole new slew of representatives and senators before I can put faith in anything done at this point.



posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 12:40 AM
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reply to post by VinceP1974
 


We do have to help the poor. However the government's role should be to do things like lower taxes and create incentives to higher more people. The role of helping the poor first hand is in the civilian willing force, not some government.



posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 01:09 AM
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Originally posted by David9176
reply to post by mental modulator
 





6 Versions


Cripes. WTF are they thinking? After the other gigantic bills that have passed that many people did not back were passed through without being read...now this?

I understand many of the problems as showed in your previous post. Everything is a mess. I'm not necessarily against universal health care...I just don't want to go the government route.

This is what I don't understand...

If we know government is corrupted by corporate power...then why should we trust them to pass anything legit now?


Governments corrupt the corporations and themselves by interfering into areas it does not belong and create the incentive for corruption.




IMO, before any real debate can be made, corporate influence has to be gone in government or anything that passes will be tainted.


The only way to remove the influence of the corporation is for the government to not interfere with it.

It's unavoidable , guaranteed action-reaction truth that if a government seeks to use the political process to affect the business of an organization than that organization and the people who own it, work for it, are paid by it, will act in their self interest in the political process.

In fact to suggest that the corporation not be able to act (and how is that even possible) is to advocate tryanical government abuse of private industry.

I do believe that the First Amendment gives people the right to lobby and address the government for redress.




As I stated earlier....people know government is corrupt...they just don't know why.


Neither do you





You'll never see anyone in the MSM criticizing CEO's and their stockholders. Hell, Fox News makes CEO's look like great guys.


By that statement you reveal you obviously do not watch Fox.




...but MSNBC and CNN won't demonize each other either...unless it's for ratings.

I don't see any CEO's from the health insurance industry out in the media saying they want the best for everyone. It's BS...and it's time we all wake up to it.


They're in the White House with barack obama , receiving their bribes in exchange for thier going along with the Federal usurptation of thier industry. Why in the world would a CEO need to go on TV to say they want the best for everyone. I think that's a rather disturbing expectation to have.

That implies that intentions matter for a corporation. Intentions, like in so many aother things, are meaningless. It's what you do and what the results are that matter.






People will always have the right to live as far as I'm concerned and I don't really give a damn if someone profits from it or not as long as it's done.



People have the right to not be enslaved,, which I think is what you are calling for.




And there are lots of things that could be done...but you won't hear ANYONE..NO ONE....talk about breaking up the health insurance companies by enforcing anti-trust laws on them to kill the monopoly they have.


Please get an economics dictionary. That was embarassing.


Until some leadership starts doing this we'll continue to go down the tubes.

I don't think you'll get single payer MM...I just don't see it happening...and if it does....it won't be what you want....if that is what you want? Not sure of what you feel about it.

I just feel we need campaign finance reform and a whole new slew of representatives and senators before I can put faith in anything done at this point.


What do you think of Jim Demitt's bill?

Oh you probably don't even know about it.



posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 01:09 AM
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Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by VinceP1974
 


We do have to help the poor. However the government's role should be to do things like lower taxes and create incentives to higher more people. The role of helping the poor first hand is in the civilian willing force, not some government.


That's my view precisely.



posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 01:25 AM
link   

Originally posted by David9176
reply to post by mental modulator
 





6 Versions


Cripes. WTF are they thinking? After the other gigantic bills that have passed that many people did not back were passed through without being read...now this?

I understand many of the problems as showed in your previous post. Everything is a mess. I'm not necessarily against universal health care...I just don't want to go the government route.

This is what I don't understand...

If we know government is corrupted by corporate power...then why should we trust them to pass anything legit now?

IMO, before any real debate can be made, corporate influence has to be gone in government or anything that passes will be tainted.

As I stated earlier....people know government is corrupt...they just don't know why.

You'll never see anyone in the MSM criticizing CEO's and their stockholders. Hell, Fox News makes CEO's look like great guys....but MSNBC and CNN won't demonize each other either...unless it's for ratings.

I don't see any CEO's from the health insurance industry out in the media saying they want the best for everyone. It's BS...and it's time we all wake up to it.

People will always have the right to live as far as I'm concerned and I don't really give a damn if someone profits from it or not as long as it's done.

And there are lots of things that could be done...but you won't hear ANYONE..NO ONE....talk about breaking up the health insurance companies by enforcing anti-trust laws on them to kill the monopoly they have.

Until some leadership starts doing this we'll continue to go down the tubes.

I don't think you'll get single payer MM...I just don't see it happening...and if it does....it won't be what you want....if that is what you want? Not sure of what you feel about it.

I just feel we need campaign finance reform and a whole new slew of representatives and senators before I can put faith in anything done at this point.


Well I think the first thing to do would be campaign finance reform...

You are right, to fully address this our "leaders" need to know who they are working for.

This is where we need to start... The right and left can agree on this -

In the mean time there is some simple things that can be addressed now that can help,
but this is a fiasco.

As far a single player, NO - reason being is even IF Obama worked in good faith, what would happen when an ANTI BIG GOVERNMENT PRO CORPORATION president comes in? They will MAKE SURE it fails to prove a point, I am now convinced...

The problem is it seems many folks HERE do not seem to see the CORPORATE problem
which is the obvious problem and why our government in screwed up.


I REALLY think A five year government match NON for profit to compete with
the Big Guys could be a short term fix. As well as better more real world definitions
of fraud civil and corporate could be a bandage.

D, the costs have gone up 130 - 200 +% in less then 15 years

Co PAYS are up 500% in 15 years...

For my policy alone if I stayed the same age and health 30 years from now

like... god... more than I make in a bad year...

We are screwed.

We need to STOP the lobbyists and Election Funding NOW, we are wasting time and energy.

BTW, I have been working for the doc as you read above...

Five days after learning billing I already get the scam.



posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 01:46 AM
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Originally posted by VinceP1974

Originally posted by David9176
reply to post by mental modulator
 





6 Versions


Cripes. WTF are they thinking? After the other gigantic bills that have passed that many people did not back were passed through without being read...now this?

I understand many of the problems as showed in your previous post. Everything is a mess. I'm not necessarily against universal health care...I just don't want to go the government route.

This is what I don't understand...

If we know government is corrupted by corporate power...then why should we trust them to pass anything legit now?


Governments corrupt the corporations and themselves by interfering into areas it does not belong and create the incentive for corruption.




IMO, before any real debate can be made, corporate influence has to be gone in government or anything that passes will be tainted.


The only way to remove the influence of the corporation is for the government to not interfere with it.

It's unavoidable , guaranteed action-reaction truth that if a government seeks to use the political process to affect the business of an organization than that organization and the people who own it, work for it, are paid by it, will act in their self interest in the political process.


Well I am convinced you are on a pay role...

And NO

Corporations corrupt the Government and themselves by interfering into areas it does not belong and create the incentive for corruption BY BUYING THE POLITICIANS and THEIR VOTES which benefit their own bottom line.

If the government did not interfere with business we would still have
LEAD PAINT (obviously your favorite milkshake flavor and component),
Monopolies, "Company Stores"... ultimately you are ridiculous and serve as a
corporate shill.

In effect your only goal is to maintain the Reagan myth and keep things how they are.
You are no different then the Talkers during the feudal system, same shilling, new era.


Anyhow you give all your power away to the CORPORATIONS, I will retain my one vote
and keep it as potent as possible thank you.



posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 02:52 AM
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Originally posted by mental modulator


Well I am convinced you are on a pay role...



And i'm convinced you are not. and not by your choice.



posted on Aug, 20 2009 @ 11:00 AM
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reply to post by mental modulator
 



Well I think the first thing to do would be campaign finance reform...

You are right, to fully address this our "leaders" need to know who they are working for.

This is where we need to start... The right and left can agree on this -


Well said and you are correct that left and right can agree. The only problem is that the same people who would be responsible for fixing it would be the same people leaving loopholes in the fix.

The only way I see this can get done is to get a non-partisan group of citizens to write the bill and have Congress agree to pass it without adding amendments. That's a long shot.

Appreciate the info you have contributed.



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