The problem with Health Care: "Government involvement"

Originally posted by tommy_boy

Can't argue with that, Gateway. You're an isolationist.

Ha ha, so because I want to pay for my own family's health care and not your own I am an isolationist, ergo bad American?

And if I did want to pay for your heath care I'm a GOOD AMERICAN I SUPPOSE

Keep quoting them polls!!!

Waiting for you to actually tell us which polls your talking about (Prolly Rasmussen and Fox).

Well I'll post it again, since you found reading to be a chore.
Here you go...read it and weep. But who...cares right?

They can't be right...numbers are made-up all the time. Right? Like the poll numbers claiming Bush's popularity was virtually zero or the polls that said the vast majority of American's thought the Iraq war was wrong.

It's only important, when it suits you huh, tommy_boy?

Man, your in the wrong country, my friend. You DO KNOW you already live in a pretty socialist country right?

Sure I do...but hell with common sense DAMN THE TORPEDOS FULL SPEED AHEAD!! Why only be partial socialist when we can have FULL SOCIALIZATION, right tommy?

Well... Let's see. Considering that the current proposals estimate 2/3's of it to be paid for by cost cutting measures and efficiency reforms. That's neither taxes nor printing money. SO in other words you can redirect approved wasteful spending in order to pay for this. 2/3's is a good start wouldn't you say?

GEE...providing 300 million American's the option of FREE health care wont create a budget nightmare. No, I'm sure most people like paying for things.

Gee what shall it be....free....or not free, which shall I decide?

They'd probably be Republican

But it's still a valid point. You can find a poll that says anything. Most polls actually say that Americans want reform.

Sure and most people thought BUSH was alright...and a damn good president too.

To hell with the polls, right tommy?

LOL! You just admitted that you willingly pay into a SOCIALIST healthcare system! You just admitted that a system where the able pay for the unable WORKS!

Are you that clueless on how insurance works? Since most people are not sick, they pay for those that are through insurance. Those that aren't sick, don't find a need to go to the hospital for every whim, they have deductibles to pay, this provides and incentive to not go see a doctor for so much as a sneeze. You think people will avoid going to the DOCTOR ONCE THEY FIND OUT THEY DON'T PAY ANYTHING....OR VERY LITTLE?

But no...common sense doesn't play into your logic...right tommy?

Now that you, in writing, agree that a socialist healthcare system actually works, can you now, without the anger and useless rhetoric, tell us exactly why your against healthcare reform, especially since you just indirectly admitted you were for it?

tommy_boy...or is it Chris Farly I'm talking too...have you not read anything I have written? Is English your second or third language?


[edit on 15-8-2009 by Gateway]

Originally posted by VinceP1974
Its your responsibility to maintain your life. you have freedom of speech, does that mean I have to pay and buy you a TV station?

Maintain my life? Against a cold? A Flu? Diabetes perhaps? Emphysema? Yeah, I can see that.

Cancer? Leukemia? Osteoporosis? Fibromyalgia? Genetic Disorders? And a host of thousands of other things that one can contract without any wrongdoing? We can't guard against these. I can't "maintain" my life against these.

THESE are the reasons people get health insurance. These are also the reasons that, EVEN WITH healthcare, people go bankrupt. And you say we don't need reform? That's like saying that the best reform for the healthcare system in this country is simple: Stop getting cancer!

Originally posted by VinceP1974

Originally posted by tommy_boy

Originally posted by VinceP1974
Common sense says the larger and more intrusive you make the Government, the more you incentivize corporate and organizational forces from every inch of society to try to influence govt to it's benefit.

Another reason why it should be limited.

[edit on 15-8-2009 by VinceP1974]

Fair enough, Vince. But the converse forces us to acknowledge that corporations are just as, if not more, dangerous to the public cause than the government. You can look at the financial industry to see this. There are few dangers greater to the American people than a corporation's balance sheet.

The financial industry that the Govt is propping up against all known economic sense and sanity? The financial industry the Govt ruined by telling them to trust their GSE lies.

The industry was ruined because of greed, their own greed...

I worked sub prime and we did 12 times our mandated quota consistently.

This was ushered in by loosening of restrictions in 1999 which created conglomerates that funded and insured their owns assets. A very conservative move less the ELO
clauses. The pig ate it self... LESS government intervention paired with an admin that looked the other way compounded the problem.

Was a conservative dream, wide open market free for the reaping...

reply to post by Gateway



Who said free???

the system is intended to provide better buying power for individuals and less populated groups.

That is the gist of the public option.

Originally posted by Gateway
Well I'll post it again, since you found reading to be a chore.
Here you go...read it and weep. But who...cares right?

They can't be right...numbers are made-up all the time. Right? Like the poll numbers claiming Bush's popularity was virtually zero or the polls that said the vast majority of American's thought the Iraq war was wrong.

It's only important, when it suits you huh, tommy_boy?

HAHA! It's like I read your mind, or I was on the same Glenn Beck-loving website as you!!!!

Just as I suspected, and as I predicted in my previous post! Your "POLL" link is written by Scott Rasmussen!!! Man you make this too easy! I couldn't plan this stuff if I tried!!!

And no, I generally discount polls as a rule. And I'm perty sure the vast majority of Americans actually did think the Iraq war was wrong... Not sure what Fox NEw Dynamics poll you got that one from...

reply to post by tommy_boy

Not everything is ALWAYS 100% the government's fault.

Tommy boy, do you know what the FED is and how it manipulates interest rates? You..think...take a leap here with me if you can but maybe...just maybe...keeping interest rates at 1% might have...might have just possibly created this bubble?

Nope...according to tommy boy wallstreet, and the greedy real estate people caused the housing bubble.

Originally posted by tommy_boy

Originally posted by VinceP1974
Its your responsibility to maintain your life. you have freedom of speech, does that mean I have to pay and buy you a TV station?

Maintain my life? Against a cold? A Flu? Diabetes perhaps? Emphysema? Yeah, I can see that.

Cancer? Leukemia? Osteoporosis? Fibromyalgia? Genetic Disorders? And a host of thousands of other things that one can contract without any wrongdoing? We can't guard against these. I can't "maintain" my life against these.

THESE are the reasons people get health insurance. These are also the reasons that, EVEN WITH healthcare, people go bankrupt. And you say we don't need reform? That's like saying that the best reform for the healthcare system in this country is simple: Stop getting cancer!

Well the argument is distilled now...

Mr private island has his own road that he paid for all on his own.
His own power grid and possibly his own military....

make sense to side with the elite I suppose.

Originally posted by Gateway
reply to post by tommy_boy

 

Not everything is ALWAYS 100% the government's fault.

Tommy boy, do you know what the FED is and how it manipulates interest rates? You..think...take a leap here with me if you can but maybe...just maybe...keeping interest rates at 1% might have...might have just possibly created this bubble?

Nope...according to tommy boy wallstreet, and the greedy real estate people caused the housing bubble.

NO they did not lend 50 time their liquid capital base and insure 100 times beyond recoupable pay out...


There is this thing called greed --

reply to post by tommy_boy


So, then why poll people to begin with tommy? Why not just have "Tommy_boy" as official holder of the pulse of public opinion?

By the way, I could be like you too:

And claim that the majority of the people are in favor of the Iraq war...and hell....just to piss you off...they liked Bush too.

Originally posted by tommy_boy

Originally posted by VinceP1974
Its your responsibility to maintain your life. you have freedom of speech, does that mean I have to pay and buy you a TV station?

Maintain my life? Against a cold? A Flu? Diabetes perhaps? Emphysema? Yeah, I can see that.

Cancer? Leukemia? Osteoporosis? Fibromyalgia? Genetic Disorders? And a host of thousands of other things that one can contract without any wrongdoing? We can't guard against these. I can't "maintain" my life against these.

THESE are the reasons people get health insurance. These are also the reasons that, EVEN WITH healthcare, people go bankrupt. And you say we don't need reform? That's like saying that the best reform for the healthcare system in this country is simple: Stop getting cancer!

Pay for it yourself. Or don't.

How many hours shall I toil for you? Am I your slave?

Originally posted by mental modulator

Originally posted by Gateway
reply to post by tommy_boy

 

Not everything is ALWAYS 100% the government's fault.

Tommy boy, do you know what the FED is and how it manipulates interest rates? You..think...take a leap here with me if you can but maybe...just maybe...keeping interest rates at 1% might have...might have just possibly created this bubble?

Nope...according to tommy boy wallstreet, and the greedy real estate people caused the housing bubble.

NO they did not lend 50 time their liquid capital base and insure 100 times beyond recoupable pay out...

There is this thing called greed --

That's still less than what the GSEs were able to accomplish in terms of thier overleveraging and implied insurancer.... and the Government told Wall St... compete with our lovely GSEs , so that the secondary market could find the money to keep making more and more loans.

Of course the Govt turned its eye... it started the ball rolling and that was that.

When the Govt tried to be a little sane, they were called racists by the same people shouting "racist" now.

Originally posted by tommy_boy

Originally posted by Gateway
Well I'll post it again, since you found reading to be a chore.
Here you go...read it and weep. But who...cares right?

They can't be right...numbers are made-up all the time. Right? Like the poll numbers claiming Bush's popularity was virtually zero or the polls that said the vast majority of American's thought the Iraq war was wrong.

It's only important, when it suits you huh, tommy_boy?

HAHA! It's like I read your mind, or I was on the same Glenn Beck-loving website as you!!!!

Just as I suspected, and as I predicted in my previous post! Your "POLL" link is written by Scott Rasmussen!!! Man you make this too easy! I couldn't plan this stuff if I tried!!!

And no, I generally discount polls as a rule. And I'm perty sure the vast majority of Americans actually did think the Iraq war was wrong... Not sure what Fox NEw Dynamics poll you got that one from...

Think Regress is the only approved mothership of regurgation.

reply to post by mental modulator


hahahah...so you are defending the fed now. Just like a liberal...to defend those that depreciate value of the currency.

So by setting interest rates to 1%, it couldn't possibly have stimulated LOANS to be lent for people to refinance or buy homes, huh?

Yes, interest rates have nothing to do with people BORROWING, metal modulator.

[edit on 15-8-2009 by Gateway]

Originally posted by mental modulator
reply to post by Gateway

 

Who said free???

the system is intended to provide better buying power for individuals and less populated groups.

That is the gist of the public option.

The gist of the "public option" is to surreptitiously destroy insurance and have the Government by the sole savior in the wreckage they caused.

Where's Marx? I'm waiting for Mao and Pol pot to chime in here...

Originally posted by Gateway
Sure I do...but hell with common sense DAMN THE TORPEDOS FULL SPEED AHEAD!! Why only be partial socialist when we can have FULL SOCIALIZATION, right tommy?

Right! Now your talking! Nothing wrong with basic socialist ideals. At the very least no more in volume than you can find wrong with Capitalism.

GEE...providing 300 million American's the option of FREE health care wont create a budget nightmare. No, I'm sure most people like paying for things.

Gee what shall it be....free....or not free, which shall I decide?

FREE of course! Cept it's not free (obviously). We are paying for it; that's the public option. Don't think anyone's saying it's free. But it should absolutely be an entitlement.

Sure and most people thought BUSH was alright...and a damn good president too.

To hell with the polls, right tommy?

RIGHT! Polls are stupid. They tell you nothing. Now we're getting somewhere.

Are you that clueless on how insurance works? Since most people are not sick, they pay for those that are through insurance. Those that aren't sick, don't find a need to go to the hospital for every whim, they have deductibles to pay, this provides and incentive to not go see a doctor for so much as a sneeze. You think people will avoid going to the DOCTOR ONCE THEY FIND OUT THEY DON'T PAY ANYTHING....OR VERY LITTLE?

But no...common sense doesn't play into your logic...right tommy?

Not clueless, but you keep somehow articulating the reasons why so many want reform. I'm afraid your not doing your cause much of a service.

The scenario you describe is in fact how it works. Except you oversimplify. It's not the coughs and the sneezes that are being kept away by this system you love so much. It's the preventable, life-altering diseased people that are not getting the treatment that they need because they cannot afford those deductibles, cannot afford the bills they will have to pay when the insurer decides not to cover them. These people (the bottom 50%) are paying into a system that they cannot afford to take advantage of.

Hey you love this system, be my guest! But there's a public option comin yer way whether you like it or not. Just close yer eyes, but leave yer checkbook out. My neighbor needs an appendectomy.

tommy_boy...or is it Chris Farly I'm talking too...have you not read anything I have written? Is English your second or third language?

Ohh, I've read your stuff, and it's just all over the place. I get it. You hate Obama, he's a socialist commie, you don't wanna pay for anything, your a fringe extremist, Hannity/Bush-lovin rightie. You read Rasmussen polls (which says enough, honestly). I get it. More importantly I get "you." There's no point trying to sway people like you. It's just always fun to expose you guys on these threads for the walking contradictions that you are.

reply to post by Gateway


Dude seriously....

People poll for the reasons I've been trying to explain to you. Because they can be spun to any given side. That's why people poll.

Ohh forget it... You'll just ask the same question again in a few minutes anyway.

Originally posted by VinceP1974

Originally posted by mental modulator

Originally posted by Gateway
reply to post by tommy_boy

 

Not everything is ALWAYS 100% the government's fault.

Tommy boy, do you know what the FED is and how it manipulates interest rates? You..think...take a leap here with me if you can but maybe...just maybe...keeping interest rates at 1% might have...might have just possibly created this bubble?

Nope...according to tommy boy wallstreet, and the greedy real estate people caused the housing bubble.

NO they did not lend 50 time their liquid capital base and insure 100 times beyond recoupable pay out...

There is this thing called greed --

That's still less than what the GSEs were able to accomplish in terms of thier overleveraging and implied insurancer.... and the Government told Wall St... compete with our lovely GSEs , so that the secondary market could find the money to keep making more and more loans.

Of course the Govt turned its eye... it started the ball rolling and that was that.

When the Govt tried to be a little sane, they were called racists by the same people shouting "racist" now.

Ah but who penned the concept???

Who is shouting racist BTW? You RUSH AND BECK???

As communist I am we aware of the spin and I honestly have not heard a preemptive peep from my boys.

Originally posted by Gateway
Where's Marx? I'm waiting for Mao and Pol pot to chime in here...

I'll go wake em up - Bring Hitler and daffy duck

Originally posted by Gateway
reply to post by mental modulator

 

hahahah...so you are defending the fed now. Just like a liberal...to defend those that depreciate value of the currency.

So by setting interest rates to 1%, it couldn't possibly have stimulated LOANS to be lent for people to refinance or buy homes, huh?

Yes, interest rates have nothing to do with people BORROWING, metal modulator.

[edit on 15-8-2009 by Gateway]

And who should have performed DUE DILIGENCE???

JESUS???

the government ???

There is a choice on the other 1100% Donald...

Govemment made me greedy pa - droved me to rob the same bank eleven times in a row

[edit on 15-8-2009 by mental modulator]