The healthcare conspiracy

reply to post by infolurker


So do you like it that some rich fat cat can dictate your health care? you want crooked corporations that care for only profit to tell you your children cant have certain procedures so they can make even more money?

No matter how much you even reform them they will still have huge profits that could go towards your health care.

This is a no-brainer.

I know I am smarter than to have EVER trusted Insurance companies. They are the most crooked of the crooked corporations.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan

Here's a better analogy:

If you lefties think the government SHOULD pay for health insurance then WHY don't you also advocate for government to also just PAY for my CAR insurance or HOUSE insurance too?


The reason why I don't pay your car insurance and home insurance is that you can live without it. It is a luxury.

Ah...it is a perceived luxury, NOW. Just like HEALTH insurance was a perceive luxury 40 years ago. That's the point...people change, society changes, what you perceive as A MUST was a luxury at some point. I'd say a good majority of the country has a form of transportation, but do they have insurance? One day people MAY make some ridiculous plea like you're making. And say that CAR INSURANCE IS RIGHT.

Health is not a luxury.

You perceive it as a RIGHT? You have rights to yourself and your property. Do you think it is okay to take's someone's property and give it to others? Is not your income your own? Or I guess you take the position that income is not YOUR private property. That in fact the STATE allows you...your income and hence has a CLAIM on your property?

Why do I have to pay for YOUR fire service?

You don't' have to pay for anything. That is something the STATE forces you to pay. Just like you are saying the STATE SHOULD TAKE MY PROPERTY, that I work very hard for and give it to someone else. I would gladly give you back every nickle. We certainly can have a private fire department, as well as police if need be.

[edit on 11-8-2009 by Gateway]

reply to post by LoneGunMan


What about the video? I don't need a video to know that the insurance agencies are corrupt. I don't need a video to tell me that they own our government along with our banks. I don't need a video to tell me stuff that I can deduct from looking at what is going on around me.

What about your fire department analogy? Are you trying to say that my house and material possessions are the same as a life saving treatment that I could be denied because of any mired of reasons and have no recourse or outlet to get that treatment? The fact is if your house is on fire the fire department will come and do what they are trained to do put the fire out regardless of circumstances and cost. Health Care, not so much.

I don't support the insurance companies in anyway shape or form so you are coming to your own assumption with that. What is even worse is you are trying to convince me that I should give control over my life(that is essentially what government run health care is) to the government. To these same people that have shown they are not trusted and are easily paid off to do what ever the highest bidder wants them to do.

reply to post by Absum!

To "take over the whole health system." A total falsehood.

I guess if you consider giving the HHS Secretary the power to decide what health insurance polices and what is included in those policies to be offered on the Health Care Exchange that this bill would set up, I guess you could consider it a "falsehood". The truth is that is exactly what this bill will do, give the power for the HHS Secretary to decide which health care plans are available. That is the government take over of the health care industry.

Oh yea they will also decide what treatments are to be provided, determine where extra med-school students that couldn't get their residency at the place they wanted to go to a place that has open positions. They will also determine where they will work after they finish their residency if they opt for the government loan program that will be offered at 2 percentage points lower than all the other loans. Lots of other stuff too.

You should read the bill it is quite interesting all the stuff it is going to do, well read the bill that we actually have access too which is HR 3200, but they are now saying that a bill doesn't even exist just proposals. All the more reason to oppose this bill because they are pitching a bill that doesn't exist.

If we are going to survive as a community we need to become more advanced in our ways of caring for each other. Have the PTB banged on our cages so long we are ready to say Eff-um all? What happened to common sense and compassion?

You want to see here and complain about TPTB, but yet you want me to give them control of my health care(my life) to them? Yea, sorry if I'm not following your logic.

Originally posted by infolurker
reply to post by Absum!

 

Really.. if the "option" is cheaper than "blue cross" how many companies will change to the "new program"?

I will ask directly, Can you tell me beyond a shadow of a doubt that companies will not drop standard insurance and adopt the "public option" for it's employees if the cost is lower?

What the heck would be wrong with that? did you read that to yourself before posting? Come on!

If the cost is lower and it costs that Americans less money hen why not?

It will cost less because the profit will be removed and in the long run all of us will pay much less. We could take it out of the military industrial complexes profit and it would be a wash.

reply to post by uninspired


Fair enough agree - but you need to have universal health care.

reply to post by LoneGunMan


Hell no I do not trust them but so far I have gotten what I needed from them. I do not trust the current proposals either. The difference is I can threaten litigation, sue them, have my employer put pressure on them (threaten and or drop them if they screw with us) etc.

I have avenues of recourse.... Yeah, they are corrupt. I would love to see them go away but I am not going to get suckered into a crappier Government Plan "just because" on principle.

I can't sue the bureaucrats, My company will carry no weight threatening to use someone else with them. With a Government Plan / Public Option there isn't much freeking recourse so we damned sure better get a GOOD plan as I have stated before.

Originally posted by Hastobemoretolife
reply to post by LoneGunMan

 

What about your fire department analogy? Are you trying to say that my house and material possessions are the same as a life saving treatment that I could be denied because of any mired of reasons and have no recourse or outlet to get that treatment? The fact is if your house is on fire the fire department will come and do what they are trained to do put the fire out regardless of circumstances and cost. Health Care, not so much.

99% of our Fire dept. runs are for medical treatment. That is the Fire Dept analogy. you already pay for public health care and it works better than anything in the private industry.

The video is not just about how corrupt the insurance industry is. Deny ignorance and spend 7 minutes watching it.

What are you afraid of?

I am off to bed now.

Originally posted by Hastobemoretolife
reply to post by Absum!

 

Hurling insults at me isn't going to get me to change my mind at all. But all you have done is post some excerpts of people trying to organize people.

I am sorry you chose the, "Foxbot" option and did not read the five pages. It is unfortunate that you are letting others manipulate your mind and direct your actions. Had you took the time to read the linked information you would have discovered their organizing is more about rousing the most disruptive people possible to “derail” any discussions on the matter.

It’s not about free speech; it’s about shouting and disrupting ANY discussion on the subject. You do realize some republican citizens even complained about their disrupting the meetings because THEY had legitimate questions they wanted to ask.

Back to the topic:

The analogy stands and is spot-on in my opinion. We have more prevailing evidence that healthcare insurance should be governed than we have for fire services.

BTW the video was great. I have firsthand experience with helping those in their most desperate hour of need. The system is heading for a crash, the government knows it, and the hospitals know it too.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan

Originally posted by infolurker
reply to post by Absum!

 

Really.. if the "option" is cheaper than "blue cross" how many companies will change to the "new program"?

I will ask directly, Can you tell me beyond a shadow of a doubt that companies will not drop standard insurance and adopt the "public option" for it's employees if the cost is lower?

What the heck would be wrong with that? did you read that to yourself before posting? Come on!

If the cost is lower and it costs that Americans less money hen why not?

It will cost less because the profit will be removed and in the long run all of us will pay much less. We could take it out of the military industrial complexes profit and it would be a wash.

Ummm... well if the Government Plan Sucks then THAT is what is wrong with that! The previous poster alludes to still having a choice in the matter but if this public option cost companies less (BUT SUCKS) then that isn't helping me at all. So basically I am stuck with the public option and if I am going to HAVE to get it then it better not suck.

reply to post by infolurker


Well if you really want to get technical in order to keep the same plan that you have now, if you are self-insured the plan cannot change in anyway it all has to stay the same.

So what happens if I like my plan because it is cheep and does everything that I need it to do, and then inflation goes through the roof, or the gov hits them with a higher tax, and my premium has to go up? I'm going to lose my plan because they have to change my policy in order to stay profitable.

I'm not trying to defend the health care insurance agencies, but that is just the way business works.

Originally posted by Gateway


We certainly can have a private fire department, as well as police if need be.

The next county over has private advanced life support and lobbied so that the public cannot be there.

Guess what? Its horrible.

They cut costs by having two fresh from school EMT'S in the rig at a time.
One should always be experienced and at least one should be a Paramedic. This company even has speed sensors that they dock the employees pay if they exceed the speed limit. They spread the coverage so thin the response times make it so people die all the time before they get there.

Is this what you want?

They lose so many patients it should be criminal.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

reply to post by Hastobemoretolife


Well, I am pretty sure I am going to GET this "public option" along with most employees when companies switch over.

You have to read my previous post to see why (I must say it again) want a GOOD public option plan because I am pretty damned sure I am going to get it and if I am going to get it, and if most of us are going to get it then we should ALL be trying to make sure it is GOOD Plan (That Congress Adopts / No Exemptions). Public Servants = Public Option Medical. We (the people) will never get a good plan if Congress is allowed to Exempt Themselves and other "chosen" groups as they have recently voted to do. It is hypocritical of them to actually press a government plan on people that they will not ACCEPT themselves.

[edit on 11-8-2009 by infolurker]

reply to post by LoneGunMan


The fire dept. is now EMS? Sure I know fire fighters are trained in basic CPR and stuff like that, but that is a lot different then sticking an IV in your arm and cutting you open to remove a tumor or needing brain surgery or what not. I hate to break it to you, but fire fighters are not professional doctors, they might be in training or want to be a doctor at some point, but they don't surgery.

You're trying to compare apples and oranges. I am doing my part in denying ignorance, sorry that I'm not going along with the fire departments are hospitals and EMT's and provide health care and life saving surgeries to people in a hospital.

At the current rate of insurance premium rates rising and the economy in the midst of a depression, how long until your employers just dump your coverage? At 6-8% increase a year do you see them still offering you the same coverage?

Has your employer raised your deductibles in the last 5 years? Employers are being squeezed from every side and first they will cut labor, then benefits, then hours, then wages. That is the way it goes. Will you still buy your "exact" same insurance if your employer were to discontinue it?

reply to post by Absum!


So your saying just accept the "public option" even if it sucks? Why the hell would you want to do that? Make them write a GOOD "public option". Why settle for the scaps from the masters table... take what they feel they should give you? They are elected to represent "us". Why would you not want the best public option plan that was carefully and thoughtfully written and in your best interest? Why should they EXEMPT themselves from the public option unless it sucks? Hey, All or nothing baby!!! Tell these politicians: Don't try to make the rest of us "take one for the team" if your not willing to do it yourselves!

[edit on 11-8-2009 by infolurker]

reply to post by LoneGunMan


Most, if not all Ambulances are private companies. Private security is in most mall, and most wealthy neighborhoods have their own private security patrol units. There are also, private roads, there is far more problems within the PUBLIC sector, police, fire, and roads than there is in the private sector.

I would rather PAY for the service out of pocket than be taxed for things I don't use, nor have a need for.

Again you didn't answer my question:

Do you think my income is my OWN or does it belong to the government?

reply to post by Absum!

I am sorry you chose the, "Foxbot" option and did not read the five pages. It is unfortunate that you are letting others manipulate your mind and direct your actions. Had you took the time to read the linked information you would have discovered their organizing is more about rousing the most disruptive people possible to "derail" any discussions on the matter.

Yet, more insults.

It's not about free speech; it's about shouting and disrupting ANY discussion on the subject. You do realize some republican citizens even complained about their disrupting the meetings because THEY had legitimate questions they wanted to ask.

I could go and list 5 pages of information that the left organizations are telling there people to do much much worse. So some people complained about not being able to ask a question, I guess it's a lot better than getting beat up and shoved around like the left is doing.

The point is this, both sides are doing it that is the facts.

Back to the topic:

The analogy stands and is spot-on in my opinion. We have more prevailing evidence that healthcare insurance should be governed than we have for fire services.

BTW the video was great. I have firsthand experience with helping those in their most desperate hour of need. The system is heading for a crash, the government knows it, and the hospitals know it too.

Yep, lets let the government run our health care when they ran the economy into the ground, let them be bought off by the highest bidder, and constantly shove bills down our throats that we didn't want passed, also a government that goes off to war for unfounded reasons, they also stage coups in other countries too, etc. That makes a lot of sense.

Edit to fix tag

[edit on 11-8-2009 by Hastobemoretolife]

[edit on 11-8-2009 by Hastobemoretolife]

reply to post by infolurker


Oh I agree, I hope we don't get this bill shoved down our throats, but we probably will and the "public option" aka .gov insurance company will be a total disaster.

I can only hope it will be decent, but basing my judgment off of their past performances I'm not holding my breath.

reply to post by Hastobemoretolife


I have come to the conclusion that we will get a "public option" and if were going to get it "Let's do it right" is my motto. Don't let the fat-cat politicians exempt themselves and their "chosen" groups. Make the public plan GOOD or were all screwed (except those EXEMPTED of course) so don't let them exempt themselves or any other "chosen" groups. Refuse to take a crap plan.. Make them provide something with a semblance of fairness.

reply to post by infolurker


I agree with everything that you are saying, but I'll take it one step further, and demand that they actually follow and abide by the constitution. If they want a public option then we should demand they do it constitutionally and amend the constitution to provide it.