Why I am tired of people supporting the current Healthcare Bill

Time to rant a while:

Many people wonder WHY these crowds are coming out to protest "healthcare" when nothing else seemed to really make them get off the couch and be heard. It is really simple, This time they have something to lose that makes an immediate impact.

Debt... no big deal, life goes on...

Federal reserve.. no big deal, life goes on..

Overseas problems... no big deal... life goes on...

Taxing you more and possibly lowering your quality of Heathcare.... OH... Wait, NO! HOLD ON!

Working Middle Class Americans have and pay for insurance... Many of us have pretty damned good plans, I can get an MRI or Catscan approved in minutes if needed (and I have). I can get specialist consultations within days (hours if an emergency). I can go to any "urgent care" business and take care of any "non lethal" injury or illness immediatly.

We tend to like this "on demand / instant" healthcare. I sure as hell do anyway.

I cannot go to the emergency room and be seen in a timely manner... 4 to 6 hour wait, tried that recently and after waiting 2 hours we went to the Urgent Care and were in in 5 minutes, they still charged me $80 for "signing in" & sitting in the waiting room. So I go another 2 blocks to a private "urgent care" clinic that is attached to the diagnostic imaging center (one stop shop) and I am in in 5 minutes.

Here is the psych of much of the resistance to this current healthcare plan in a nutshell:

OK, Let's be truthful, we work, we have always worked, we pay for the privileges of outstanding healthcare. America "Does" have the best healthcare in the world if you are insured well.

So, why should we (those who work, retired, or on current good medical plans) lower our standard of living, lifesaving diagnostics, instant treatment so we can join that 4-6 hour line and wait months for tests, treatment, seeing specialist ect. (Real or Perceived I don't want to even argue that, When powerful people exempt themselves from the plan they are trying to force on everyone else then not many are going to trust it and many will perceive the worst.)

Really, I am open to a "universal basic medical" plan for EVERYONE. But Let's do it right! Tort reform, Pharma price negotiations, sane costs controls, etc.

Once you start seeing ANY EXEMPTIONS for specific elite or favored groups you know that that a plan is BS. Point blank, if were going to have a "universal care" then it damn well better be "universal" because trying to ram a crap plan down the throats of the middle class while EXEMPTING yourselves is crap. Let's all bear the burden together if were going to do it at all! Anything less is another screwing to the middle class and we all know it.


There you have it, why I am against this particular plan as it stands today (house version of the bill)

waysandmeans.house.gov...
help.senate.gov...


So, I am a greedy rotten SOB because I do not want to Lose something that I have worked for and because the Politicians, Govt Employees, and Unions EXEMPT themselves to keep what I got! (and they are not greedy rotten SOB's???)

All or nothing baby!!!

Don't try to make the rest of us "take one for the team" if your not willing to do it yourselves!

The same politicians who are pushing this on ME have VOTED OPENLY to EXEMPT THEMSELVES so... you know.... I think I will be against this one, start over and bring us a good healthcare bill this time!

Does this clear up any questions about why so many people are truly up in arms about this... it suddenly impacts them! Yes, they should have been up in arms about the Debt, Bailouts, etc, but finally it hits home. That is why they are getting off the couch and speaking up... sure there are some groups "fanning the flames" but there has to be a fire there to fan. If getting people out to these things was as simple as having a Republican Group telling them to show up it would have happened LONG LONG ago.

www.humanevents.com...

Democrats also voted down an amendment from Rep. Dean Heller (R-Nv.) that would require all Members of Congress to get insurance through the government-run plan. Apparently Democrat members of Congress do not like the government plan they’re trying to inflict on the rest of us. In a straight party line vote, Democrats voted against exempting themselves from the government-run plan by a vote of 21-18.

“We also had an amendment to require that members of Congress must participate in the government-run plan,” Camp said. “If it’s such a great idea, it should be a great idea for members of Congress. The majority voted to prevent that from happening. They voted to exempt members of Congress from the government-run plan.”

Also voted down were amendments that would require proof of citizenship or legal status to sign up for the government plan, that would bar government funding abortion as a plan “benefit,” and an amendment that would bar rationing of health care based on comparative effectiveness data.

So in summary: Stop arguing about the pros or cons of a junk plan, who is organizing who and lying about what and agree we DESERVE BETTER A ONE!!!

We deserve a Healthcare plan or reform bill that is good enough to NOT require EXEMPTIONS for the same people pushing the bill on everyone....

Please... EXPLAIN OR ARGUE with this.... Tell me one good reason why (Current Pro-bill supporters) that there should be EXEMPTIONS for the "chosen". I really want to hear this... I want to actually see the justification in your minds. (Of course very few will directly answer this question and will pick a favorite line from above to ridicule but hey, let's give it a shot).

Universal Healthcare = Universal Acceptance (No EXEMPTIONS)


[edit on 8-8-2009 by infolurker]

Mod Edit: Changed Title

[edit on 8/9/09 by FredT]

I think you need to adjust your arguments.

For starters, I'd note that Medicare is completely insolvent and due to go bankrupt. How are we supposed to believe a government that can't even run a postal service in a profitable and economic way will be able to run the entire healthcare industry? They have to have laws against private companies competing for first class mail.

The ultimate result of the proposed program will be to add millions of users to the insurance rolls rather than letting them seek care at pay for service clinics or charity hospitals. Everyone already gets free emergency care. If you walk into a hospital with a gun shot wound, they must treat you no matter if you can pay or not.

If you add a whole shat load of users to a medical system that already has no market forces keeping costs down, it will wipe out the existing supply and spike costs. Not only will the proposed bill add millions of users to the system for routine care, it also wipes out private insurance. There will be no private options for anyone who isn't a rich bastard because it directly bars private insurers from acquiring new contracts as well as puts them at a huge competitive disadvantage by undercutting market costs.

This will result in direct price controls and rationing. It will strangle the private insurance market to death and give government total control over the medical industry. The proposed bills are the first step in a program of nationalization. First they make everyone dependent, then they remove alternatives, finally they nationalize it outright.

Rationing of care IS THE ULTIMATE GOAL of this healthcare proposal. The government wants it, it needs it, and its looking for ways to make rationing a reality. This is how they plan on dealing with the 50 trillion dollar unfunded Medicare liability. By simply not giving the care out to the elderly.

I don't care what arguments the Dems make claiming that rationed care will not happen, I say bullshat.

These are immutable laws of nature we are dealing with here. No law can stand in the way of mother nature.

When the government comes in and sets prices and subsidizes markets, the inevitable outcome of this intervention is that demand will exceed supply.

When demand exceeds supply in a price controlled situation, there is only one alternative left to government, and that is to ration the care.

This is not debatable.

This is not something that can be argued with.

This is not something that can be legislated away.

This is not something more government will be able to fix.

This is a fact - nay a LAW of economics that is as permanent a force as gravity and electricity. It has happened in EVERY COUNTRY that has socialized medical care.


The entire reason healthcare costs so much now is because:
1. Government mandates that insurance packages must cover all sorts of crap that most people don't need and don't want - this drives up insurance prices.

2. Government pours billions into the healthcare system through Medicare and other programs that are not priced according to market forces. Doctors are not setting prices based on market forces, they are setting prices based on what they can get away with charging Medicare.

3 Government creates incentives for employers to tie medical care to jobs through tax breaks, rather than allowing private individuals to retain their earnings and purchase insurance packages on their own in the private market. This further distorts insurance prices.

4. Because government mandates that insurance packages must cover damn near everything, they don't allow the market to work for routine care and drugs. There are no market forces at work in healthcare today. Insurance is supposed to be for big ticket items, not daily care. You don't buy car insurance and expect it to cover your oil changes. Most doctors don't even know how much their own services cost. There are no price lists in a doctors office for routine care.

5. Government reporting mandates are OUTRAGEOUS. The government has created a complete mess over something that should be a relatively minor part of patient care - administration. The reporting requirements involve doctors having to hire massive armies of accountants, record keepers, clerks, etc.. etc.. etc.. to ensure they meet all the reporting requirements. Anyone that fails to comply gets fined out the ying yang.


ALL of our medical problems today could be fixed if government got the hell out of the way and allowed market forces to work correctly. Just as we see with lasik eye surgery, prices would drop and quality would improve.

Just as we see with breast augmentation, prices would drop and quality would improve.

In fact in every market where government stays the hell out, prices drop and quality improves.



You want cheap high quality medical care? Tell the government to get the hell out.






[edit on 9-8-2009 by mnemeth1]

reply to post by mnemeth1


I agree with much of your logic. The "Urgent Care" clinics were set up exactly because there was a market.... wait 4-6 hours for non-lethal emergency care or come here and get in and out in 30 mins.

I was hoping some of the "bill supporters" would reply and provide a rebuttal of my concerns about this "particular bill". I find it blatant hippocracy on the part of our lawmakers and I would really like some "enlightenment" on the justifications but I seriously doubt any rational argument can be made.

Bill supporters... Any takers... or to busy trying to convince everyone that ALL objections are part of some plot or mission statement? The purpose of the thread is to explain the objections and see if anyone can actually justify this bill.

[edit on 9-8-2009 by infolurker]

While I understand your sentiment, do you really think calling anyone who supports the bill an idiot is the best way to go about it?

Whatever happened to the days when a debate could actually be had without it falling into name calling and mud-slinging? It's now starting even before the conversation (I mean really, you called a LOT of people idiots right in your title).

I feel like the average IQ around here is on the decrease....

So, does calling your oppenents Idiots in the title actually fit in with the newly affirmed political discourse of the board?

I'm sure the author was simply offering a counter perspective of the subject line in this thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Which calls all those opposed to health care reform "idiots"

Funny, isn't it, people are equally offended by being called idiots on both sides of this issue.

Maybe that is our common ground?

reply to post by cautiouslypessimistic


I have a feeling the OP is responding to this thread, or one similiar.

Why I'm Tired of Idiots Opposed to Health Care Reform

I don't think he's actually targeting you specifically.

The vitriol in these topics seem to me to originate from the left, then they try to transfer guilt to those on the defense, totally ignoring their own abusive language. Just an observation.

Originally posted by Aeons
So, does calling your oppenents Idiots in the title actually fit in with the newly affirmed political discourse of the board?

It does as long as the above referenced thread still exists.

[edit on 8/9/09 by Ferris.Bueller.II]

reply to post by Walkswithfish


I was under the impression that we weren't allowing multiple threads on the same subject. We have two threads talking about the same thing, it's just one is pro and the other is con.

This should all be located in a single thread.

Good OP however.

~Keeper

reply to post by infolurker


I am against this bill as written, but I am for everyone getting healthcare. I would rather see tax credits go to providers who have pro-bono services for the poor; give them an incentive to do good.

I think the insurance providers we have suck. I don't know how many times (and this is United, Alliance, AETNA, etc) I have had claims returned without anyone contacting or explaining why forcing me to spend half a day during core work hours chasing down why. I think that the insurance industry tells doctors how to treat their patients. I think the quality of your healthcare determines your treatment.

That said, I don't think the government that we have now is focused enough to do better.

My problem is that people treat this like this is the worst thing that happened to the US. When you said "no big deal" about the Fed I almost fell over. WHAT????

What about the Iraq war? We could pay for this worthless healthcare reform several times over with the money we wasted there and will continue to waste on their rebuilding efforts.

What about Blackwater?

And what about the Patriot Act???? Where were freedom loving, anti-pinko Republicans then? Have you read it? Do you realize that Fusion centers are cropping up all over the place that will now analyze your bumperstickers, your clothing, the websites you go to, etc.

If someone said give me half your paycheck each month and we'll abolish the Patriot Act and the Department of Homeland Security I would do it in a heartbeat.

I am appalled that people can get so outraged over this stupid bill and not any of the other hideous things we've had shoved down our throats the past 25 years. Have you read the executive order about FEMA? Temporarily abolish the Constitution? And no protest?

ARGH!

Simple rebuttal thread to:

Why I'm Tired of Idiots Opposed to Health Care Reform

www.abovetopsecret.com...


Nothing more than that. Since that thread is spewing forth propaganda that everyone opposed to the bill is an Idiot and controlled by a "right wing" propaganda campaign, I thought I would start a thread that has nothing to do with propaganda and throw down the facts of why I and many others do not support this bill.

(I am actually insulted to be told that my concerns are nothing more than propaganda.... I think they are quite valid and I would like to know how anyone could not see them as valid and provide a direct response.)

So, If you support this bill, and read the post, I think it is very easy to see why many people are opposed to this bill. I would like to see the reasoning of those who would still support this bill now knowing that our wonderful lawmakers are making sure they do not have to be stuck with it.


And sorry, I posted this rebuttal before the: Reaffirming Our Desire For Productive Political Debate thread.
posted on 9-8-2009 @ 11:54 AM


[edit on 9-8-2009 by infolurker]

reply to post by tothetenthpower


I think having a venue for both perspectives is good, besides the similarities are mainly in the subject lines, the thread itself should be allowed to continue as is, in my opinion.

These are not exactly the same discussions, although very close, and if the other was allowed, why not in the interest of fairness allow this one?

Just my thoughts.

On second thought, I'm derailing this thread with my nonsense.

I apologize OP, and follow posters.

~Keeper

[edit on 8/9/2009 by tothetenthpower]

I am 100% against the government legislating health care. We don't need health care, we need tort reform. Make harder fot patients to sue doctors. Make it harder for people to sue drug counpanies. That alone would save money.
Then instruct to insurance company to cut back on unnecessary test that doctors had to order, just to cover their butts.

The OP makes a lot of good points.

I am against Government Health Care Reform.

I am against the Government period!

I am pretty much against Health Care period!

I eat high cholesterol foods, smoke 2 packs of cigarettes a day, immerse my self in stressful business practices...

Yet amazingly I ride my bicycle up to 25 miles a day, have no shortness of breath despite smoking for 32 years, and have low cholesterol and normal blood pressure.

The few times I have been to the Doctors in my life, and I wait until I feel like death warmed over for a prolonged period to go, the Doctors always tell me the same thing.

The truth!

You don't need a pill or a surgery you need to make this or that lifestyle correction. If you were this person or that person you would need a pill or a surgery, but since your mind actually functions as one, just do this instead it will correct it self in a few weeks.

Laugh out loud it always does.

Health Care and the Government are destined to go together after all misery loves company and water seeks its own level.

It really is all mind over matter.

Originally posted by kettlebellysmith
I am 100% against the government legislating health care. We don't need health care, we need tort reform. Make harder fot patients to sue doctors. Make it harder for people to sue drug counpanies. That alone would save money.
Then instruct to insurance company to cut back on unnecessary test that doctors had to order, just to cover their butts.

Um...come again? That is propaganda from the Bush administration. Blame the little guy. It is OUR fault that the costs are rising. If we never sued it wouldn't be. This is so chicken and egg. Tell that to the woman who went in for knee surgery and came out missing both breasts while the woman with cancer went weeks untreated. It capped out at $250K. Both breasts gone. Tell it to my friends mother whose HMO wouldn't support early detection tests out of cycle--oh wait! You can't. She's gone now.

Some malpractice awards are out of line, but if you ask your local doctor who and what is preventing them from practicing medicine the way they would choose they'll tell you HMOs, not fear of malpractice. Drug and device companies collude with insurance companies all the time. All the time. Tack on how many people that have pre-existing conditions and are forced to go to the emergency room for treatment and you have another good argument for why we're screwed.

Tort, is not the main reason. It is "a" reason.

I would gain a new level of respect for our President and members of congress if at some point they would come forward and announce that they are going to scrap this proposed health care reform bill, while keeping some key beneficial elements and rework a new plan, and give the American people time to review the new alternate plan before the house and senate vote on it.

But honestly, they seem hell bent at this point on ramming this bill through no matter how unpopular it is, or what it will cost. If they could have they would have passed this monstrosity before any of the public had time to see what was in it. It was opposition within their own party that stalled that vote... That should have been a red flag for any American citizen.

I'm sure after their summer break they will vote on this and it will pass the house.... If so, then there isn't much we can do about it until 2010 when we can collectively fire a lot of them.

They do not respond very well to pressure from the public, and apparently it is having an impact, so between now and then, if you have read through this bill, and are opposed to it, or any part of it, voice your opposition to it by contacting your elected reps and/or any other ways that you can. Keep the pressure on, and remind them who their boss really is.

[edit on 9-8-2009 by Walkswithfish]

At first i thought the health care plan was a good idea, until i found out that many Canadians were dying because some bureaucrats was calling the shots on life and death situations........and the ones that could afford health care would come to America to have their procedure done...........Could someone on this website ( that is from Canada) give me some more insite on this situation.

reply to post by infolurker


I absolutely agree. The free market system that we have in place in this country is one of the greatest, most duplicated in the world. It may not be fair or subtle but it has always worked great until the government gets involved.

P.S. If you want healthcare, work at Wal-Mart, McDonalds, KFC, anywhere. They all offer benefits, to the people who don't want to pay for health care or don't want to work. I can't say I feel sorry for you.

Originally posted by intelinside451
reply to post by infolurker

 

Um, I am against this healthcare bill, too, but at least be honest about "what's out there" for people. Wal-Mart has been exposed numerous times for keeping employees at 38 hours a week, 2 less than they need for health and vacation benefits. Starbucks is one of the only large chains that does give its employees benefits, and as such it is a highly desired place to work.

It is not as easy as you think to get health insurance because it costs the employer phenomenal amounts of money, hence the need for reform. What that reform is...well, I hope it is not what they're selling us.

Oh and as for those that "dont want to work"...what economy are you living in? I can't even tell you how many people who want to work, can't work right now.



I absolutely agree. The free market system that we have in place in this country is one of the greatest, most duplicated in the world. It may not be fair or subtle but it has always worked great until the government gets involved.

P.S. If you want healthcare, work at Wal-Mart, McDonalds, KFC, anywhere. They all offer benefits, to the people who don't want to pay for health care or don't want to work. I can't say I feel sorry for you.

Unfortunately there are people out there who have no clue what is going on. They just know that Obama is for the plan, and that is good enough for them. Then some just see it as another handout, as long as they don't have to pay for it, it is just fine with them.