Yukon UFO "Mothership" Incident: December 11th, 1996

Originally posted by ZetaRediculian

When I began to see cases where it seemed like it HAD happened, I really wanted to find out how the eye-brain system COULD create such a major fail.

I would really like to hear more on this part....like if there was any literature you came across...a link or something. But I don't think its a fail. I think thats what brains just do. But not just one brain, several with lots of adrenaline running through them

If we take a close look at the structure of common neurotransmitters (Fig. 1) the transmitters most closely related to the classic psychedelics are serotonin (5-HT), adrenaline (epinephrine), norepinephrine,

link

So I would like to just throw this out there. This is taken from the testimony of Fox3. This is the only first person testimony that I found. The others were all in third person. The key here is the subjective experience of the actual witness.

Fox3

But of course my body wouldn’t do what my mind wanted it to do. So it was like I was frozen in time but time seemed to continue without me! I’m sure I wasn’t myself at that moment and still think so to this day! In fact I was quite beside myself with fear of this immense thing! The drive up till this point had been nothing short of dull and the incident happening to me had just awakened me right up out of my dull, sleepy drive. Having been expecting a long and boring drive I had not yet adjusted to the object above me!

Is this guy on acid?

Well…I think sorta. Being someone who has partaken in the rituals of hippie tribes that followed the Grateful Dead for a number of years, I honestly could not tell you if this was the testimony of someone who was high on acid at a Dead concert or a witness to a UFO event. Everything about it right down to the feeling of being “Frozen in Time” to “the one day that changed my whole sense of reality forever” reeks of drug induced freaks that haven’t showered in months.

So where am I going…

”the incident happening to me had just awakened me right up out of my dull, sleepy drive”
Does he mean that he was nodding off? If we take this at face value, yes. I could interpret this as he was trying to stay awake on a long drive. We have all been there. We all know what we do when we sleep…no he wasn’t dreaming but…
Neurotransmitters and Sleep

The other two neurotransmitters that have been implicated as playing an important role in
sleep are norepinephrine (NE) and serotonin (5-HT)

'___'

'___' is a naturally occurring psychedelic compound….
'___' is analogous to the neurotransmitter serotonin (5-HT), the hormone melatonin,

…and then what?

He sees whatever he sees and his brain gets a hefty dose of adrenaline. He goes from one extreme to another nearly instantaneously.
From here, in this state, he makes his observations, compares notes with others, confabulation….#8 was it?

….and just like all those Dead Heads convincing one another that what they just heard was the most amazing music ever known to man….well give some of those recordings a try….just say’en

more on '___'

The eye receives light on the retina in a series of concentric circles with the highest concentration in the center. We only receive about 80%-90% of the actual picture of what's in front of us on the retina, and the rest (like the stuff left out on the periphery and in the blind spot) is "added in" by our brain's ability to fill in the missing pieces of reality. This "fill in the blank" aspect of the brain is not perfect, and sometimes causes us to mistakenly see something "out of the corner of our eye" which on closer inspection is not actually there. Along the pathway from the retina to the prefrontal cortex, the sense data must be translated from a series of concentric rings of dots to a concrete image of outlines, fills, and shading that we perceive as reality. This process is called "frame translation." Hard lines are etched out on our retina by a process called "lateral inhibition", which allows one retina to take priority over the retina next to it if it perceives a hard line or shift in shading that infers depth or outline. If lateral inhibition is inhibited, the edges of what we see tend to drift and blur, causing perspective distortion, creeping light and shadows, and patterns that seem to crawl. At more dramatic levels of this kind of activity, the "frame" of reality actually begins to rotate and twist, and if you have "trails" on the outlines of an image that is rotating in space, you create a complex 2-D geometric lattice. If this lattice twists forwards or backwards it produces depth of field, thus a swirling 3-D matrix appears.

link




[pressimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/47497427bbd9.jpg[/pressimg]

"A good example of a simple frame-translation error can be found when analyzing the structure of
phosphenes, the closed-eye geometric patterns seen when the optic nerve is excited. These swirling
mandalas of the mind have been reproduced for thousands of years in spiritual artwork, but we
now know that such patterns may be the direct result of instability in signal coupling between the
spatially oriented neural structures in the retina and the visual cortex (see illustration to the left).
If this instability is caused by excitation and lag in the feedback circuit connecting the LGN with
the visual cortex, one would expect to see phantom frame data drifting across the visual field
whenever the eyes were closed, creating the perception of spinning luminescent mandalas

Originally posted by ZetaRediculian
"A good example of a simple frame-translation error can be found when analyzing the structure of phosphenes, the closed-eye geometric patterns seen when the optic nerve is excited. These swirling mandalas of the mind have been reproduced for thousands of years in spiritual artwork, but we now know that such patterns may be the direct result of instability in signal coupling between the spatially oriented neural structures in the retina and the visual cortex (see illustration to the left). If this instability is caused by excitation and lag in the feedback circuit connecting the LGN with the visual cortex, one would expect to see phantom frame data drifting across the visual field whenever the eyes were closed, creating the perception of spinning luminescent mandalas.

So the witnesses' eyes were closed? Yeah, that sounds very plausible. Amazing that they were able to stay on the road. Interesting, also, that they stopped their cars and got out and watched.

But wait.... how'd they see the rocket re-entry then?

Way to confuse things by pretending to give scientific legitimacy to an explanation which is actually more bizarre than that of "real UFO." I mean, given what you want us to infer from that (irrelevant) document you attached, it's a wonder we're not ALL seeing giant spaceships floating by....

(And note to others, in case it's not 100% obvious: that UFO pic is not what the original document's parenthetical "see illustration to the left" was referencing. The UFO pic that ZetaRediculian pasted in just happens to be directly left of that text, I suppose because of formatting.)

Originally posted by TeaAndStrumpets
So the witnesses' eyes were closed? Yeah, that sounds very plausible. Amazing that they were able to stay on the road. Interesting, also, that they stopped their cars and got out and watched.

But wait.... how'd they see the rocket re-entry then?

Nope. I never said their eyes were closed. In fact, I will state emphatically that the witness I quoted had his eyes open. I will even guess that his eyes were very wide open and filled with light.
I guess you missed this part from the quote "A good example..."
But thats a good point since a person having such an experience with their eyes closed will see geometric patterns. anyone experienced with psychedelics can tell you that.

Way to confuse things by pretending to give scientific legitimacy to an explanation which is actually more bizarre than that of "real UFO." I mean, given what you want us to infer from that (irrelevant) document you attached,

It's confusing to you since this may be new to you. as far as pretending to be scientific, yes absolutely I am. but the logic seems plausable.

1. you have a rocket reentry @ same date time and location. That's been established.

2. you have a direct witness testimony describing a subjective experience that is practically indistinguishable from someone describing an acid trip.

3. no doubt that the wittness was quite frightend. Anyone that graduated 8th grade, including Jethro, knows about "fight or flight" and that its fueled by adreniline.

4.adreniline and psychedelics like '___' have a very similar structure. thats a fact.

5. (this is my leap) going from a sleepy state to a very arroused stated and witnessing something profound triggers something as profound as a '___' trip. '___' is made by your very own body.

6. The document that describes how '___' and psychedelics cause visions of spinning luminescent mandalas (which describes that picture of the UFO to the tee) is not irreverent.

So now tell me that this is a more bizzare solution than this thing was an Allien craft. I am certain I can provide an endless supply of data from reputable sources to back up what laid out.

(And note to others, in case it's not 100% obvious: that UFO pic is not what the original document's parenthetical "see illustration to the left" was referencing. The UFO pic that ZetaRediculian pasted in just happens to be directly left of that text, I suppose because of formatting.)

whine noted. yes, that was unintentional but makes a good point. but i will fix.

Originally posted by JimOberg

Originally posted by decepticonLaura
reply to post by JimOberg

 

jeeeez jim, all that waffle!.

What would it take to persuade you that the drawing posted yesterday of a spaceplane was made by somebody who was watching a fireball swarm passing overhead?

Please, describe your evidential requirements.

my evidential requirements, Jim, are that maybe you perhaps use facts that are
oh i don't know
relevant to the case?

look i get it, perception is a crazy thing and eyes are crazy things and things falling through the sky on fire are crazy things.... i got that at your first post, i got that years before your first post, you can save yourself the time typing out your pretty rocket fantasies ad infinitum because let me make this abundantly clear;
i get it.
what is happening here is that you are consistently IGNORING many facets of the witnesses descriptions.
then when i bring that up you give me paragraphs of rockets again
and tales of reentries in other places and times...
sorry Jim! not good enough!
How about at this juncture i bring up the matter of my acquaintance, Jim
Jim lies to me every chance he gets, i guess he just likes that look on my face as i realise i'm being lied to.
going by your responses in this thread
it would not seem far fetched to come to the conclusion that if this Jim enjoys lying to me constantly
surely all Jims must
and you are therefore only after that cheap thrill of the lie.

Clearly that is not the case, just as clearly as you can't use a reentry in a different time and place, viewed by different people, and described differently to explain this.

4.adreniline and psychedelics like '___' have a very similar structure. thats a fact. 5. (this is my leap) going from a sleepy state to a very arroused stated and witnessing something profound triggers something as profound as a '___' trip. '___' is made by your very own body. 6. The document that describes how '___' and psychedelics cause visions of spinning luminescent mandalas (which describes that picture of the UFO to the tee) is not irreverent.

reply to post by ZetaRediculian



are you serious right now ? so they were all on this drug ?

reply to post by ZetaRediculian


so... let me get this straight;
you imply that you have been, or were, a deadhead for years
then you finish your post with what i can only read as a scathing indictment of their music...

you have "partaken in the rituals of hippie tribes"
yet a description of being frozen in sudden fear evokes descriptions of acid trips

you try to compare a slow moving, enormous object covered in lights, with search beams moving ponderously overhead
to closed-eye geometric mandalas

i'm not trying to call you out, but none of that rings true

as for the adrenaline = dmt thing...
i personally have been jolted awake from the edge of sleep countless times.... a subset of those times, also too numerous to count, happened while i was driving [i used to do a lot of night driving]
and i can say categorically and to my eternal displeasure that never on any single one of these occassions did i experience anything akin to any sort of perception altering state in any form [beyond standard adrenaline jumps], nor has it happened to any of my friends or night-driving colleagues [they would brag.]
and sure, adrenaline can *distort* elements of perception, but you can't possibly believe it happens to that extent. i can just imagine now how vehicular accident reports would read. every sporting event, every war, every morning commute would end the same way, and that's manifestly not what happens.
more, it is something we would be well aware of. teens would be constantly scaring each other high. freeways would be suicide. dealers would have to find honest work. actually they wouldn't because it would not be some recent, little known discovery.

Originally posted by LightningStrikesHere

4.adreniline and psychedelics like '___' have a very similar structure. thats a fact. 5. (this is my leap) going from a sleepy state to a very arroused stated and witnessing something profound triggers something as profound as a '___' trip. '___' is made by your very own body. 6. The document that describes how '___' and psychedelics cause visions of spinning luminescent mandalas (which describes that picture of the UFO to the tee) is not irreverent.

reply to post by ZetaRediculian

 

are you serious right now ? so they were all on this drug ?

:

Yes. I think that is what the poster is implying. They were all having an acid trip.

Including that family with the three kids in Carmacks.
That is without doubt one of the stupidest explanations I have ever heard.

Thirty people on an acid trip in the Yukon.

Originally posted by decepticonLaura
... if this [other] 'Jim' enjoys lying to me constantly surely all Jims must
and you are therefore only after that cheap thrill of the lie.

Clearly that is not the case, just as clearly as you can't use a reentry
in a different time and place, viewed by different people, and described differently to explain this.

That analogy doesn't wash. You correctly pointed out that one cannot
take one characteristic -- a person's name -- and conclude that it is
a marker for an unrelated characteristic -- their propensity for recreational lying.

With eyewitness misperceptions of booster reentries, the two features -- the
booster itself, and its raw appearance, versus the way normal people can
interpret and report it -- are intimately connected in a causal chain. And the former
event itself can be documented as having happened.

What I have set myself to do is to show that booster reentries with their
specific visual stimuli HAVE in other cases resulted in eyewitness
reports and drawings of large structured craft, and since in the Yukon
case a booster reentry was indisputably occurring in the same location,
time, and direction as the eyewitness reports, it is reasonably to conclude
that the witnesses were reacting in the same exact way that OTHER
witnesses to identical stimuli had done, in the past.

And none of them, AFAIK, were named 'Jim'.

I expect that this will be an adequate argument for most readers.

I also expect that some readers, no matter WHAT the evidence,
will just refuse to believe it.


.

Originally posted by bluestreak53

Originally posted by LightningStrikesHere

4.adreniline and psychedelics like '___' have a very similar structure. thats a fact. 5. (this is my leap) going from a sleepy state to a very arroused stated and witnessing something profound triggers something as profound as a '___' trip. '___' is made by your very own body. 6. The document that describes how '___' and psychedelics cause visions of spinning luminescent mandalas (which describes that picture of the UFO to the tee) is not irreverent.

reply to post by ZetaRediculian

 

are you serious right now ? so they were all on this drug ?

:

Yes. I think that is what the poster is implying. They were all having an acid trip.

Including that family with the three kids in Carmacks.
That is without doubt one of the stupidest explanations I have ever heard.

Thirty people on an acid trip in the Yukon.

Not my suggestion at all. Maybe even not a serious suggestion, just a joke or a deliberate distraction.

hmmmn. I'm not suggesting anyone was any drug and no, I didn't account for the multiple witnesses. I do joke frequently...I have a background in psychology. My language equating the witness being on "acid"...yes, i wanted to get peoples attention...I don't want attention...really I hate attention. But this is something glaringly obvious to me and I had to get it out there.

What I am saying is that all the componets are there for this type of thing to occur. The human body produces all the these drugs naturally...afterall thats how drugs work...they mimic natural chemicals in our body. Psychologists have been suggesting for years that these types of sitings are mass hallucinations but could never really explain the "mass" part. Spontaneous hallucinations don't really occur if you are healthy, you need a trigger.

You don't have to take me seriously, I really don't care, but maybe you should take all the real studies on this type of thing seriously.

Dr. James Callaway detected this molecule in the spinal serum of people who were dying, or were having an "Out of body experience (OOBE)", or who were lucid dreaming. It is Pinoline that enables the threshold levels of '___' to become active in the brain, but it requires an adrenaline burst. '___' with Pinoline increases brain activation, and with its cousin the 5-Methoxy-'___', has been shown to activate the brain by as much as 40%, compared to our 10% maximum potential at present. This is a frightening prospect for the uninitiated, due to the absolutely overwhelming nature of '___'.

link

also

Strassman, Rick (2001). '___': The Spirit Molecule. Rochester, Vermont: Park St. Press www.rickstrassman.com...

Sorry, I don't want to distract from the Jim Oberg show....im out

reply to post by bluestreak53

Yes. I think that is what the poster is implying. They were all having an acid trip. Including that family with the three kids in Carmacks. That is without doubt one of the stupidest explanations I have ever heard. Thirty people on an acid trip in the Yukon.

i know ! tell me about it , what trips me out is , how people really believe this stuff ? , i understand the willingness to trying and figure it out , but '___' really ? or '___' ? really really !?

Originally posted by LightningStrikesHere
reply to post by bluestreak53

 

Yes. I think that is what the poster is implying. They were all having an acid trip. Including that family with the three kids in Carmacks. That is without doubt one of the stupidest explanations I have ever heard. Thirty people on an acid trip in the Yukon.

i know ! tell me about it , what trips me out is , how people really believe this stuff ? , i understand the willingness to trying and figure it out , but '___' really ? or '___' ? really really !?

Realy Realy Realy. My god people Realy don't have a clue about any of this stuff. This stuff is naturally produced in your body. It is measurable and detectable unlike aliens. I took one persons first hand account. Just one because the rest were in third person. This account, as far I can tell, fits real theories about what happens to someone under certain conditions. I am in no way qualified to really get into it but I understand this at its fundamental level. I provided links to the real people who do rel studies about this. But if you would rather believe in aliens then something real and quantifiable, that's ok.
Aren't there any real scientists or psychologists or anyone who has even vaguest clue about brain chemistry here.

The brain chemistry of individuals is interesting, but we have here multiple witnesses widely distributed geographically. Something much more widespread -- and reproduceable -- seems required, IMHO.

Here are some more eyewitness drawings from the October 30, 1963 reentry of the kosmos-20 booster over Ukraine.

Some witnesses saw a swarm of independent fireballs.

Some witnesses saw bright windows in a structured object.

They were looking at the SAME phenomenon.


Fireballs
files.abovetopsecret.com...




windowed craft:
files.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by decepticonLaura
reply to post by ZetaRediculian

 

so... let me get this straight;
you imply that you have been, or were, a deadhead for years
then you finish your post with what i can only read as a scathing indictment of their music...

Yes. Between 1985 and 1995 I went to~30 dead shows and dropped a lot of acid. Yes my opinion of them now is not as high as it was. Is that ok?

you have "partaken in the rituals of hippie tribes"
yet a description of being frozen in sudden fear evokes descriptions of acid trips

I was trying to be a little Tom Wolfe like.. Yes frozen in "time" but yes. Is that wrong?

you try to compare a slow moving, enormous object covered in lights, with search beams moving ponderously overhead
to closed-eye geometric mandalas

Yes that would explain some but not all of it. Closed eyes has nothing to do with anything other than that's what you and the trumpets guy chose to focus on

i'm not trying to call you out, but none of that rings true

Call me out for what? Aliens don't ring true for me.

as for the adrenaline = dmt thing...
i personally have been jolted awake from the edge of sleep countless times.... a subset of those times, also too numerous to count, happened while i was driving [i used to do a lot of night driving]
and i can say categorically and to my eternal displeasure that never on any single one of these occassions did i experience anything akin to any sort of perception altering state in any form [beyond standard adrenaline jumps], nor has it happened to any of my friends or night-driving colleagues [they would brag.]
and sure, adrenaline can *distort* elements of perception, but you can't possibly believe it happens to that extent. i can just imagine now how vehicular accident reports would read. every sporting event, every war, every morning commute would end the same way, and that's manifestly not what happens.
more, it is something we would be well aware of. teens would be constantly scaring each other high. freeways would be suicide. dealers would have to find honest work. actually they wouldn't because it would not be some recent, little known discovery.

did you ever hear of roller coasters?
Look. I dont have a "99 ways to hallucinate" web page to hock or anything but there is a ton of info on this out there if you care to look. That's up to you.

Originally posted by JimOberg
The brain chemistry of individuals is interesting, but we have here multiple witnesses widely distributed geographically. Something much more widespread -- and reproduceable -- seems required, IMHO.

no argument here. what I would say is that this is a multifaceted phenomenon and examining one individual detailed account could really shed some light on at least one aspect of this. So I hope you don't think this is an argument for something else opposed to what you suggest. my point is that people can misidentify things and can hallucinate. a point that people just don't seem to have a clue about.

Originally posted by JimOberg
The brain chemistry of individuals is interesting, but we have here multiple witnesses widely distributed geographically. Something much more widespread -- and reproduceable -- seems required, IMHO.

Here are some more eyewitness drawings from the October 30, 1963 reentry of the kosmos-20 booster over Ukraine.
[snip]

Interesting. Is there more substantial data available on the whole mass of sightings from that 1963 reentry? I'd like to know to what extent such spaceship drawings are the norm, vs. being statistical outliers? Are they the exception, or the rule? I'd guess there must've been many people that day who accurately described what they saw, without inserting windows and thrusters and all?

I make the point because Hynek and McDonald, each of whom *personally interviewed* hundreds of UFO witness (an effort that no skeptic I can think of has come close to matching) have both stated that MOST witnesses very much prefer and actively seek to find a natural explanation.

So I'm just not certain how to reconcile what you suggest, or at least seem to be suggesting, with statements like this by two scientists who studied the phenomenon (I think you'd agree) more extensively than most anyone else:

Hynek:
"[Witnesses] almost always attempt to find - even force upon the lack of fact, if necessary - a natural explanation. In direct contradiction to what we are often told, that people 'see what they wish to see ', my work with UFO reporters of high caliber indicate that they wish to see or to explain their observations in terms of the familiar.... I have seen this process of going from the simple, quick description and explanation, step by step, to the realization that no conventional description would suffice (escalation of hypoth­eses) happen far too often to be able to subscribe to the idea that the UFO reporter has, for inner psychic reasons, uncon­scious images, or desires, used a simple, normal stimulus as a vehicle for the expression of deep-seated inner needs.­"
(p.29 of "The UFO Experience.")

McDonald:
"My experience in interviewing witnesses in the selected sample I have examined since 1966 is that the witness first attempts to fit the anomalous observation into some entirely _conventional_ category. "I thought it must be an airplane." Or, "At first, I thought it was an auto-wrecker with its red light blinking." Or, "I thought it was a meteor - until it stopped dead in midair," etc. Hynek has a very happy phrase for this very typical pattern of witness-response: he terms it "escalation of explanation" , to denote the often rapid succession of increasingly more involved attempts to account for and to assimilate what is passing before the witness' eyes, almost invariably starting with an everyday interpretation, not with a spaceship hypothesis."
(p.5-6 in his "Statement on Unidentified Flying Objects" to the House Committee on Science and Astronautics, at the 1968 'Symposium on UFOs' in Congress.)

Originally posted by ZetaRediculian
...My god people Realy don't have a clue about any of this stuff.... I am in no way qualified to really get into it but I understand this at its fundamental level. I provided links to the real people who do rel studies about this. But if you would rather believe in aliens then something real and quantifiable, that's ok.
Aren't there any real scientists or psychologists or anyone who has even vaguest clue about brain chemistry here.

The expert source you cited was referring to an eye phenomenon which occurs when the eyelids are shut, no? The very portion you took the trouble to re-type included this: "If this instability is caused by excitation and lag in the feedback circuit connecting the LGN with the visual cortex, one would expect to see phantom frame data drifting across the visual field WHENEVER THE EYES WERE CLOSED, creating the perception of spinning luminescent mandalas." (My emphasis.)

And yes, absolutely, such people as you describe -- "real scientists or psychologists" who know about brain chemistry and human perception and all -- definitely do exist. I believe Richard Haines used to study this very kind of thing for NASA, in efforts to help improve information presentation in cockpit displays and instrumentation. He started as a scoffing skeptic, sure that UFOs were all human misperceptions and hoaxes, but finally heard too many sturdy and reliable UFO reports from clearly sane and respectable people (like pilots), and now appears to believe that a genuine unknown phenomenon lies at the heart of a small percentage of UFO reports.

From what little I've read, it sounds like the limits of human misperception are understood more thoroughly than many debunkers would wish. But I admit that's only an impression. I'm not qualified to critique neuroscience studies.

Originally posted by TeaAndStrumpets

Originally posted by ZetaRediculian
...My god people Realy don't have a clue about any of this stuff.... I am in no way qualified to really get into it but I understand this at its fundamental level. I provided links to the real people who do rel studies about this. But if you would rather believe in aliens then something real and quantifiable, that's ok.
Aren't there any real scientists or psychologists or anyone who has even vaguest clue about brain chemistry here.

The expert source you cited was referring to an eye phenomenon which occurs when the eyelids are shut, no? The very portion you took the trouble to re-type included this: "If this instability is caused by excitation and lag in the feedback circuit connecting the LGN with the visual cortex, one would expect to see phantom frame data drifting across the visual field WHENEVER THE EYES WERE CLOSED, creating the perception of spinning luminescent mandalas." (My emphasis.)

yes, but he point is you see these things wheather your eyes are closed or open, you just can notice them more when they are closed. You could have your eyes open and flooded with light or be in complete darkeness or be looking at something and still see the same things...believe me I know. but still you choose to focus on that one thing. eyes closed. I wonder what Freud would say about that?

lets put it this way. when your eyes are closed, what you "see" is what you brain is producing only. when they are open you see what is out there in the real world plus what your brain is producing. failure to grasp this basic idea is perplexing to me.

if you really want to find out what someone "sees" in an isolation tank loaded with various substances, google John Lilly. people actually see whole landscapes and alien worlds. very bizzare.