First Documented UFO Debunked

Originally posted by jkrog08
reply to post by Pathos

 

how do you account for the alien bodies - Dead pilots who were burned severely in the wreckage.

Four foot tall pilots with over sized heads and eyes?

LOL you beat me to it... this is the sort of stuff that annoys me about the skeptics/debunkers... just coming up with "theories" to explain stuff away..... yet not doing any research into the event ot even worse they know the fact the bodies were child size grey type alien appearance... yet completely ignore it because it doesnt fit their agenda.

If I come back in another life I want to come back as a skeptic... easiest job in the world.... just tell people they are wrong all the time and make up theories that sound plausible whilst ignoring the evidence that dissproves your theory in the hope nobody will pick it up.... then when you do get found out you just conveniently ignore you were wrong and start debunking something else. Sooner or later you'll get lucky.

[edit on 31-7-2009 by Total Package]

Originally posted by Pathos
Hmmm. He just happened to know his elevation? He just happened to know the distance between the ground and aircraft? He just so happened to have a calculator at that exact moment in time, so he can come up with the numbers quickly? Sounds like he is full of snot.

He knew his elevation. I believe that Kenneth Arnold saw something, meaning he didn't make up a story. Whether that "something" was a formation of 9 real objects, or an atmospheric phenomenon, like a mirage, is unknown.

You have to be impressed reading his account of the story here:
irdial.com...

But there are some very obvious serious problems with his story.

They flew like many times I have observed geese to fly in a rather diagonal chain-like line as if they were linked together. They seemed to hold a definite direction but rather swerved in and out of the high mountain peaks.

He knows he's 25 miles or so from the mountain peaks so he has to estimate such a distance for objects weaving in and out of the peaks:

I observed them quite plainly, and I estimate my distance from them, which was almost at right angles, to be between twenty to twenty-five miles. I knew they must be very large to observe their shape at that distance, even on as clear a day as it was that Tuesday

Here is one major problem with his story. How do you clearly see the shape of objects 20-25 miles away, unless they are HUGE!!!! OK maybe they were huge, let's continue..

I hadn’t flown more than two or three minutes on my course when a bright flash reflected on my airplane. It startled me as I thought I was too close to some other aircraft.

A bright flash, on his airplane, from objects 25 miles away? Surely anyone familiar with the inverse square law of light intensity would suspect a problem with an explanation that a reflection from an object 25 miles away would couse a bright flash reflected on his airplane. Remember, he wasn't looking at the objects at this time, he hadn't spotted them yet. He just noticed the bight flash.

Anyhow, I discovered that this was where the reflection had come from, as two or three of them every few seconds would dip or change their course slightly, just enough for the sun to strike them at an angle that reflected brightly on my plane.

OK once you're looking at the objects, you could see reflections from an object 25 miles away, but I think we have to be very skeptical those reflections were causing "bright flashes" on his airplane that he'd see when he wasn't looking at the objects.

So how did Hyneck resolve this discrepancy?

www.rense.com...

Dr. Hynek was the first scientist to try to explain Arnold's sighting. Hynek couldn't except the large size and high speed implied by Arnold's observation so he decided to ignore Arnold's claim that the objects went in and out of the mountain peaks south of Mt. Rainier. By ignoring this statement (essentially implying Arnold's had made a mistake in the observation) Hynek was able to assume the objects were closer to Arnold. Hynek settled on a 6 mile distance which meant that the speed could have been much lower, like about 400 mph. Since this speed was within the capability of fast military aircraft a the time Hynek identified the objects as "aircraft," thereby also ignoring Arnold's description of the objects.

OK If Hyneck was correct, it answers a lot of questions and problems with the sighting:
-If the objects were closer, their speed was closer to 400 mph instead of 1200 mph
-They would also be closer to the size of conventional aircraft (which would support theories like the one in the OP that manmade craft were involved).
-If the objects were much closer, then it becomes much more likely that a reflection from such a closer object could actually cause a "bright flash" on Arnold's plane

The problem I have with Hyneck's explanation, is that it disregards a key part of Arnold's sighting, that the objects were swerving " in and out of the high mountain peaks."

If he's mistaken about that, he could be mistaken about a great many things. So if you assume he's credible, which most people do, then I think you have to accept his swerving in and out of mountain peaks part of the story and not disregard it like Hyneck did.

Which leads to the most likely explanation for Arnold's sighting:
Can Mirages Explain UFO Reports?
www.astronomycafe.net...

A mirage is usually defined as a phenomenon where light is reflected from a shallow layer of very hot air in contact with the ground, the appearance being that of pools of water in which inverted images of more distant objects are seen.

How can this explain UFO reports? It is not well known that these discontinuities can form in the upper air as the result of a temperature inversion - that is where a layer of warm air lies over cold air.

UFO reports explained by mirages: Surprisingly, and significantly, the very first 'flying saucer' report, that by Kenneth Arnold in 1947, can be explained in this way. He reported seeing a chain of nine peculiar 'aircraft' flying near Mount Ranier in Washington state (USA). They all moved together and occasionally flashed very brightly. However analysis shows that the apparent movement was entirely due to his own, just as a low moon will appear to follow you across a stationary landscape. All very distant objects at low altitude will appear to move because their direction does not change as that of a nearer object would. In this case, the source was nine snow-capped peaks in the Cascade Range over 100 kilometres away. In the bright sunlight, mirages of them were formed by temperature inversions over two deep river valleys between Arnold and the mountains. Where the inversions were strong, the mirages of the peaks flashed brightly. It appears that Arnold was not familiar with mirages, but this is true of almost all pilots.

I wouldn't call that "Arnold sighting debunked" because it's not definitive, however if you examine all the facts closely, it is the simplest explanation which fits the facts of the case. One of the strongest facts supporting this interpretation is Arnold's description of the motion of the objects as "skipping" which is exactly the type of motion you would expect for a mirage and not for a real object.









[edit on 31-7-2009 by Arbitrageur]

reply to post by Total Package


The finding of bodies is still being argued over. There have been statements given, where there is no mention of bodies, if the did see bodies why would they have left them out, unless they were ordinary looking other than severely burned, or unless there where no bodies at all.

As far as size goes, they could have that wrong, they are trying to remember what to them was a very traumatic event, anyone seeing any kind of crash would understand that, and details tend to get somewhat skewed when remembering details in these cases.

Severely burned bodies can appear to be skinny with enlarged heads and if the eyelids are burned away as well, the eyes can appear dark and rather large.

I am still not seeing alien bodies being described.

Originally posted by AlienCarnage
reply to post by Total Package

 

The finding of bodies is still being argued over. There have been statements given, where there is no mention of bodies, if the did see bodies why would they have left them out, unless they were ordinary looking other than severely burned, or unless there where no bodies at all.

As far as size goes, they could have that wrong, they are trying to remember what to them was a very traumatic event, anyone seeing any kind of crash would understand that, and details tend to get somewhat skewed when remembering details in these cases.

Severely burned bodies can appear to be skinny with enlarged heads and if the eyelids are burned away as well, the eyes can appear dark and rather large.

I am still not seeing alien bodies being described.

So the mortician that got the order for "child sized coffins" was lying? The nurse who saw the alien bodies was making it up? Just because some didn't see any bodies and left it out in their original statements doesn't mean the others were lying. They could have left it out... out of fear of ridicule or reprisal.... who knows.

I think you might be stretching it a bit by trying to explain it away by saying severely burned bodies can appear skinny with enlarged heads.... I've seen more than a few pictures of people dead from fires... and none of them look like aliens. They look like burnt humans.

reply to post by Total Package

I think you might be stretching it a bit by trying to explain it away by saying severely burned bodies can appear skinny with enlarged heads.... I've seen more than a few pictures of people dead from fires... and none of them look like aliens. They look like burnt humans.

Depends on the chemicals that were in the fire and how badly burned the bodies were, there are several factors to take into consideration when talking about burnt bodies.

As far as the child sized coffins, again children range in sizes, my oldest is 3 years old and weighs almost 80 lbs (doctors still working on the reason why, since he barely eats and is very active), but I doubt he would fit in your typical children’s casket. On the other side I have uncles on both sides of my family that if they died would be measured in at 4’2” and 4’5”they both flew in test aircraft for the Navy, and they said their size was common amongst many Navy test pilots about a ratio of 1: 10 meaning 1 out of every ten was short (I can only take their word for that), would they not need child sized caskets?

[edit on 7/31/2009 by AlienCarnage]

Originally posted by Total Package

So the mortician that got the order for "child sized coffins" was lying?

He's definitely lying about the nurse, I don't know about the coffins, he might be lying about those too for all I know.

Originally posted by Total Package
The nurse who saw the alien bodies was making it up?

What nurse? Naomi Maria Self? Exhaustive searches have proven conclusively that there was no nurse by that name. Then the mortician changed his story, which proves he was lying about the nurse, at least her name.

Anyway this thread is about the Kenneth Arnold sighting, there were no bodies in that sighting right? How did we get so far off topic so fast?

Oh because we're still waiting for the rest of the story from the OP linking the Arnold case to the Roswell case? OK but I'm still waiting to see that.

Originally posted by AlienCarnage
reply to post by Total Package

 

I think you might be stretching it a bit by trying to explain it away by saying severely burned bodies can appear skinny with enlarged heads.... I've seen more than a few pictures of people dead from fires... and none of them look like aliens. They look like burnt humans.

Depends on the chemicals that were in the fire and how badly burned the bodies were, there are several factors to take into consideration when talking about burnt bodies.

As far as the child sized coffins, again children range in sizes, my oldest is 3 years old and weighs almost 80 lbs (doctors still working on the reason why, since he barely eats and is very active), but I doubt he would fit in your typical children’s casket. On the other side I have uncles on both sides of my family that if they died would be measured in at 4’2” and 4’5”they both flew in test aircraft for the Navy, and they said their size was common amongst many Navy test pilots about a ratio of 1: 10 meaning 1 out of every ten was short (I can only take their word for that), would they not need child sized caskets?

[edit on 7/31/2009 by AlienCarnage]

Again... all theories... you can come up with every argument in the world to say they weren't aliens. You can say they were 4ft test pilots... who got burnt from a chemical fire that caused their head to be enlarged and the rest of the body to be small.... and their eyes bulged out of their sockets.... etc etc etc etc.

You can come up with "plausible explanations" to fit just about anything in the world..... yet the chances of that being the case is slim at best.... most people know a burnt body when they see it. To suggest it was 4ft US test pilots in a saucer that displays techonology we have never seen yet in the world....... well sorry but I find it easier to believe it was life from another planet with their own saucer.

Originally posted by AlienCarnage
It is a good practice to keep some props around for slight of hand. The declassified Northrop flying wing designs presented by Pathos and myself would have been the ones shown, if the project had actually been a success and were highly operational versions still being tested and used for black projects.

Let me put it another way, if you had a few unsuccessful tests and some very successful tests of secret aircraft, you would only show the non working ones saying that the project was a failure, meanwhile you continue to work on the successful tests. This would keep anyone from looking more into the story.

This tactic was suspected to be used on the Avrocar as well, only releasing the failures, while the continued research went on with some of the successes. Now I am not suggesting the Avrocar was what he saw, because the Avrocar came after his sighting and Roswell, I am just using this as an example as to how the military tries to hide their continuing projects, by flaunting only the failures of the projects. The Avrocar was part of Project Silver Bug, which still has unclassified documents in it, which is where I and others have interpreted that they only released the failures to the public.

Information on Project Silver Bug

www.crystalinks.com...

www.project1947.com...

greyfalcon.us...

[edit on 7/31/2009 by AlienCarnage]

It's an interesting idea but the problem would be that. The Avrocar was described as , "The most expensive lawnmower ever built". It was inherently unstable as a flying frame. It is worth pointing out that. Maybe the biggest spanner in the works, as it were, for development in the USA was the fact that. it was pretty damn corrupt. One only has to look at the Starfighter fiasco with the German contract to see how corrupt it was. In fact it was that bad that, legislation was brought in in the 1960s to try and solve the situation. A situation that had seen, the USA slip behind both Europe and the Warsaw pact when it came to basic designs. In the 60s both the French Mirage and the British Lightning, were, in the final analysis, better fighters than anything the USA had. It wasn't till the 1970s that the USA took the lead again , when it came to NATO designs.

I just don't believe the American Forces would have accepted many of the designs they did, had they had any inkling that, there were other advanced craft that could do the same job.

I've no doubt that there are, behind the scenes, people beavering away trying to develop new forms of engines, but when you look at the overall picture, aside from advanced electronic avionics, the basic design of airframes has hardly changed for 30 years. If you look at civil aviation, since the scrapping of Concord, we have , actually gone backwards, in terms of overall performance.

reply to post by Total Package


If these same people were privy to information on current flying craft, would they still have thought it were not possible to be of terrestrial design? It is hard to say for certain, but I would think that they would not.

In the third site I linked to in an earlier post, if you go to the main site you can go down to where they have information regarding German Flying saucer like ships that were being developed during WWII.

In fact I will link to some interesting info from the same site here;

greyfalcon.us...

And the one I am talking about above;

greyfalcon.us...

These two spout interesting information that make it possible that it was a terrestrial craft that crashed.

The second link is to the information on German craft that could possibly behave much as Arnold had described and could possibly reach speeds that he claimed. If these specs were in the hands of American military, then it is possible that they built such things as well and would not be documented or released.

Originally posted by AlienCarnage
If these specs were in the hands of American military, then it is possible that they built such things as well and would not be documented or released.

Anything is possible but how probable is it, considering they declassified the SR-71 made a long time after that which flies a lot faster? I don't see the point in keeping an ancient 1947 secret like that when they are declassifying more advanced SR-71s?

www.sr-71.org...

reply to post by Arbitrageur


Yes but there was other information about possible levitation used as well, which if used in the same type of craft would keep it from being declassified. Now this is only if the information is accurate at that website.

yummy

old NAZI gear, my favorite...

wel, first thing you sholud know that Horten never made it to flight, actually, it never made it to prototype...

only a few were made...

one is this one

www.ctie.monash.edu.au...

this is the second one

farm1.static.flickr.com...

soooooooo

so it could not be horten

[edit on 31-7-2009 by deejayiwan]

There's little doubt Kenneth Arnold to the best of his ability reported what he thought he was seeing in 1947.

But rarely taken into account, he achieved an unusual historical celebrity status as the first man to report a flying saucer.

He was consulted by military intelligence later on and kept up on the literature.

As time passed and interest grew he was interviewed time and again.

He eventually was reporting new sightings which I would say are highly suspect.

The point I'm making is that Kenneth Arnold grew into his new found identity and there are questions of how much embroidering and embellishment there was on his accounts as time passed. This phenomenon is far from new and has been witnessed elsewhere.

So what Arnold says in 1947 may be reliable, but how reliable are his accounts ten, twenty, thirty years later?

Mike

Here is my major problem with the early UFOs were secret Nazi craft:

1. If Germany did make such craft that were silent and quite fast, why did they not deploy it to the fronts they were fighting? The Nazis had the Atlantic, North Africa (and eventually Italy), the Soviet fronts to defend. That also does not include the many resistance fighters in the occupied territories. The Nazis were also short on many resources, so they would of used any new craft, yet they did not.

2. If Roswell was a secret military craft, why would the Air Force still keep it a secret? It is now known they have had wing bombers in the past and were even experimenting with disk shaped craft. Why would they keep the disk found at Roswell a secret? (They do not have to give away how they made it fly. They show us the stealth aircraft they have now without giving away any secrets.)

3. The Nazis also spent money on hundreds of other projects and mostly had only plans to show for the money spent. I do think there was much fraud going on of the claims being made. Could the Glocke (Nazi Bell) also have been a project the scientists invented to scheme money out of to leave the country? That could explain why the scientists were all shot on the project.

4. Why would they fly such craft in view of the public. The boomerang in Phoenix AZ during 8:30PM was witnessed by many people. There are many areas (including Alaska) where they could fly such aircraft without people seeing it.

My first reason is the number one reason why I do not think Roswell or any other craft sightings were of Nazi origin. They would of used them to deliver bombs and clearly they did not use any such weaponry.

reply to post by kidflash2008
Damn good post Mr. Flash, and very well-considered
I tend to agree with your points wholeheartedly. The fraudulent scientist angle is something I'll have to read up on. Often the arguments that unusual flying craft are simply black-op overlook recent history in military engagements. It's difficult to equate apparently advanced tech sighted in the 60s (for example) with the latest UAVs. Also, why are we still using vulnerable UH-60s to drop troops when we supposedly have large craft that can fly in at hundreds of mph and stop dead? Seems counter intuitive?

Originally posted by kidflash2008
Here is my major problem with the early UFOs were secret Nazi craft:

1. If Germany did make such craft that were silent and quite fast, why did they not deploy it to the fronts they were fighting? The Nazis had the Atlantic, North Africa (and eventually Italy), the Soviet fronts to defend. That also does not include the many resistance fighters in the occupied territories. The Nazis were also short on many resources, so they would of used any new craft, yet they did not.

Because of Hitler, he prefered the terror weapons of the V1 and V2 to conventional/advanced aircraft, just like he allowed the Kriegsmarine to focus on building subs instead of efforts on a carrier fleet

Not to mention by the time the Jet engined aircraft were in the prototype phase it was too late for them to have any real effect on the outcome of the war, for instance only a small number of ME-262's were produced in time and their effect was pretty none existant.

A big contributing factor to the Allies winning the war was focusing on equipment which was easy to mass produce and most importantly of all easy to fix on the front if something broke, Axis equipment was notorious for mechanical failure.

And you answered your own question really with your last comment on resources which another contributing factor to the Nazi's demise, most importantly of all fuel which they were very short of when they overstretched themselves on 2 fronts

Originally posted by kidflash2008
My first reason is the number one reason why I do not think Roswell or any other craft sightings were of Nazi origin. They would of used them to deliver bombs and clearly they did not use any such weaponry.

I agree that the Arnold and Roswell sightings were not of German craft.

I believe Kenneth Arnold stated exactly what he saw, but as I stated in my post above, it is most likely there were no aircraft of ANY type involved in Arnold's sighting, so that's the real debunking, not what the OP said about German craft.

reply to post by Pathos


Just so you know, one of the "first documented" cases of an unidentified flying object/s was written about nearly thirty-five hundred years ago.

As mentioned before, there are several other candidates for the first written account which can probably be assigned to ancient Sumerian texts, but this one I find more along the lines of an unknown object in the sky. It was found on Egyptian papyrus during the reign of Thutmose III - 1504-1450 B.C.: In the year 22, of the 3rd month of winter, sixth hour of the day...the scribes of the House of Life found it was a circle of fire that was coming in the sky.... It had no head, the breath of its mouth had a foul odor. Its body one rod long and one rod wide. It had no voice. Their hearts became confused through it; then they laid themselves on their bellies.... They went to the Pharaoh...to report it. His Majesty ordered...[an examination of] all which is written in the papyrus rolls of the House of Life. His Majesty was meditating upon what happened. Now after some days had passed, these things became more numerous in the skies than ever. They shone more in the sky than the brightness of the sun, and extended to the limits of the four supports of the heavens.... Powerful was the position of the fire circles. The army of the Pharaoh looked on with him in their midst. It was after supper. Thereupon, these fire circles ascended higher in the sky towards the south.... The Pharaoh caused incense to be brought to make peace on the hearth.... And what happened was ordered by the Pharaoh to be written in the annals of the House of Life...so that it be remembered for ever. (Brinsley Le Poer Trench - The Flying Saucer Story, Reader's Digest - Mysteries of the Unexplained)

www.theastralworld.com...

[edit on 8/14/2009 by PlagueRevisionism]

Originally posted by kidflash2008
Here is my major problem with the early UFOs were secret Nazi craft:

1. If Germany did make such craft that were silent and quite fast, why did they not deploy it to the fronts they were fighting? The Nazis had the Atlantic, North Africa (and eventually Italy), the Soviet fronts to defend. That also does not include the many resistance fighters in the occupied territories. The Nazis were also short on many resources, so they would of used any new craft, yet they did not.

2. If Roswell was a secret military craft, why would the Air Force still keep it a secret? It is now known they have had wing bombers in the past and were even experimenting with disk shaped craft. Why would they keep the disk found at Roswell a secret? (They do not have to give away how they made it fly. They show us the stealth aircraft they have now without giving away any secrets.)

3. The Nazis also spent money on hundreds of other projects and mostly had only plans to show for the money spent. I do think there was much fraud going on of the claims being made. Could the Glocke (Nazi Bell) also have been a project the scientists invented to scheme money out of to leave the country? That could explain why the scientists were all shot on the project.

4. Why would they fly such craft in view of the public. The boomerang in Phoenix AZ during 8:30PM was witnessed by many people. There are many areas (including Alaska) where they could fly such aircraft without people seeing it.

My first reason is the number one reason why I do not think Roswell or any other craft sightings were of Nazi origin. They would of used them to deliver bombs and clearly they did not use any such weaponry.

I agree with your great analysis. But one thing you and most don't take into account when raking the coals of history is human errors, mistakes, bad communication.

The Germans were desperately short of materials - sometimes critical components, to make even their regular equipment run. A lot of confusion and politics with the experimental developments, and time and manpower were spread too thin. They may have had a breakthrough design but were never able to bring it to a working model.

On Roswell secrecy, military policies are never uniform over long periods. At one point they may decide things are ultra-secret and critical, years later new commanding officers may decide something is junk and mothball it. It remains forgotten. People I knew who worked on this stuff tell me this was common.

On why things are tested in one place and not another, never assume rational decisions are always made. Competing politics, budget concerns, whims, often account for why things were done that make no sense today.

My overall impression is there was initial great excitement that the Americans were going to have access to a lot of cutting edge untried German technology often still in the planning stage. Private companies may have come in early hoping for contracts to produce them.

Disenchantment set in early as most of the new designs turned out to have problems - and there were greater advances being made elsewhere. good chance a lot of stuff was shelved, and largely forgotten as the focus moved elsewhere. Maybe the odd military scientist or private company though the stuff was worth a second look later on.

And maybe they just didn't figure out how to make these things work properly and didn't want to pursue refinement.


Mike

Update: I originally posted this in another thread.

Hahahaha... UFOs made by the United States.

History Project UFOs The Real History (Parts 1 thru 6)
Proof: www.youtube.com...
Proof: www.youtube.com...
Proof: www.youtube.com...
Proof: www.youtube.com...
Proof: www.youtube.com...
Proof: www.youtube.com...

"Started in 1932"

"Psychological Warfare"

----------------------------------------------------

"Russia and other allies were building UFOs based upon Germany's UFO designs"

That's the piece I was missing. Hahaha... Arnold saw versions of Germany's designs, which were being implemented by the allies of World War II. Wow... I was right in my observations. Hahaha...

----------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by jclmavg

Originally posted by Pathos
Line the designs I provided up, and then you tell me who is insane.
[edit on 19-10-2009 by Pathos]

How about you line up those designs with the other eight craft Arnold described? In fact, how about lining them up with some of the more robust UFO cases of the early 50s?

Done. See above clips.