Was Saddam a brutal dictator for a reason?

Regardless of where Saddam got his backing, he was a bad, bad man.
(many nations, as well as the US are guilty of supplying and helping him)

After what I saw in a documentary that visited Kurd survivors of the late 80's chemical attacks, Saddam has everything coming to him and then some. I have absolutey have no remorse for any harshness that comes to Saddam.

You say saddam was a murdering dicatator. He was but is it any better to replace a murdering dictator by killing thousands more people. 10,000 innocent civilians killed there that is insane. Not counting the military and police killed during fighting.

And are the ones we fought really our enemys. No. The military is a job. You get payed to fight. Whether or not you stand for whats going on or not. It's your leaders that are fighting, the soldiers are the ones who have to pay the price. A soldier has to do his job.

I can't stand these people who think war in this situation is justified when there was no just cause yet given.

Originally posted by Hoppinmad1
He was but is it any better to replace a murdering dictator by killing thousands more people. 10,000 innocent civilians killed there that is insane.

I can't stand these people who think war in this situation is justified when there was no just cause yet given.

Whats insane are your figures. Where did you generate 10,000? Is that how high you can count, or is that the population of your home town? If you can give an unbiased tally that is above or at 10,000 then I retract my statements.

There are reasons we went to war, them being Saddam has killed millions and possessed the capability to kill millions more.

Yup saddam did put himself in power - brutally the way I hear it. Yes we did use him and supply weapons to him in an effort to check the Iranians but cynically not providing the means to win while at the same time giving weapons to Iran forcing a stalemate. Saddam turned right around and invaded Kuwait on manufactured pretext (showed his ass on that one, he invaded the wrong country and then while the chance existed to correct that error he froze) and suffered the wrath of international condemnation. Not learning the error of his ways he continued to flaunt U.N. resolutions and armistice agreement while knocking off 300,000 or more of his own people. Saddam would still be in power had he not played poker on WMD subject - he aptly proved his bad decision making ability along with an unhealthy dose of megomania, it was time for him to go.
Its bad enough we have what are considered sane people in charge of WMD, its not tolerable to let people like Saddam have even the chance of control - he also apparently never saw or realized that Iraq being in the center of the middle east made him a prime target for democratization in that area, which is a longterm solution in the war on terror. Given both those factors only a self deluded maniac would miss the signs that the game was up and it was time to fold.

Originally posted by Agent47

Originally posted by Hoppinmad1
He was but is it any better to replace a murdering dictator by killing thousands more people. 10,000 innocent civilians killed there that is insane.

I can't stand these people who think war in this situation is justified when there was no just cause yet given.

Whats insane are your figures. Where did you generate 10,000? Is that how high you can count, or is that the population of your home town? If you can give an unbiased tally that is above or at 10,000 then I retract my statements.

There are reasons we went to war, them being Saddam has killed millions and possessed the capability to kill millions more.

Unbiased tally
www.infoshout.com...
www.iraqbodycount.net...
conspiracy-history-news.joeuser.com...

Just think every one of those x's on the first page had a mother a father, son's and daughters. Is killing justified. Also be sure to look at the wounded numbers. Those with legs blown off and such.

There is an old saying from the vietnam war that says fighting for peace is like F@(*ing for chastitiy. Makes sense. Now think if someone dropped a bomb on your house by accident. Woops sorry its all for a good cause. I don't think so. Whos the real culprit. Troops doing their jobs or the leaders who force them to.

There are peaceful ways to solve things and don't say there aren't. Many of you say oh in 20 years or so Iraq will be a blooming democracy if we keep up the fight. Well given 20 years do you think trying a peacfull solution would work?

Saddam had his bad poing but going to war and killing thousands more than he did and permanatly wounding countless others. Is that justified.

First I would hardly call a website neamed iraqbodycount.com unbiased. However, even if 10,000 did die, how many people do you think Saddam killed every year in his blood thirsty quest to stay in power, in the last ten years conservative estimates put deaths directly arttibuted to his regime in the hundreds of thoudsands. How many more would have died for absolutly no reason had we done nothing in Iraq.

Second how can you propose a peaceful solution to a man who tortures people simply because they critisize the governent?

Third, the idea that Saddam was somehow no worse than any other middle eastern leader and thus should not have been removed is the most ridiculous logic I have ever heard. Just because we can't get them all, does not mean that we should not get one, and by all estimates this one was by far the worst in the entire region.

You may disagree with the validity of this war, nad the legality of invading Iraq, but it is simply wrong to try and exuse what Saddam did while in power and then try to justify his methods by saying it was nessesary. Any man who believes that he is above the people, and through no authority but his own meglomania takes away the people's rights in order to further his grip on power needs to be stopped.

Originally posted by Hoppinmad1
Unbiased tally
www.infoshout.com...
www.iraqbodycount.net...
conspiracy-history-news.joeuser.com...

For the record this enlightened poster sent me this as a U2U and I am suprised to see he would publicly post such crap.

Two sites are made by foreign peace activists and the third is a very shady conspiracy site.

Anything else I would want to add Mr. EXone has already touched on.

[Edited on 11-5-2004 by Agent47]

Originally posted by Seekerof
Saddam was a good man.
Never did anything wrong worth mentioning in world opinion.
He didn't invade Kuwait, Kuwait invited him.
He never had WMD, the world and the UN made those stories, reports, and documentations up, even before and after the 1st Gulf War.
Those mass graves steadily being found and dug up today were not from his doing.
The Kurds are liars.
The Shi'ites are liars.
The Sunni are lairs.
He treated everyone with kindness and mercy.
The sanctions were illegial.
He was really a swell guy and should be put back into his position of authority.
The US and Coalition should repay all the war damage caused within 'his' country.
Reparations should be payed.

Saddam is the man and is the man that Iraq needs back today.

seekerof

I'm sorry Seekerof to tell you that but in Chile in 70's ? Pinochet was killing, torturing, making people disapears... and USA supported him !

I'm sure america would be a popular nation if they start to kill all the dictator of the planet ! But they dont, they only kills dictators when there is some oil to get !

Simple, U.S. taxpayers that support the war can pay for it if they like. I am tired of paying for the benefit of people of foreign lands... I need to ensure my money goes to the people of my own motherland first. And what money is left over, then can go over to a foreign nation probably.

The U.S. funded Saddam anyway! This is idiocy! And many lives are lost due to the corporate war. I have an idea.. let's send Bush and his arsewipes into the front lines.

[Edited on 11-5-2004 by RedOctober90]

Originally posted by RedOctober90
Simple, U.S. taxpayers that support the war can pay for it if they like. I am tired of paying for the benefit of people of foreign lands... I need to ensure my money goes to the people of my own motherland first. And what money is left over, then can go over to a foreign nation probably.

Dont you think that this war in Iraq - that is taking all of your tax money, will benefit you and all the other Americans in the long run?

Think of the money saved when the Iraq situation is finally settled down.

Oil will be cheaper anyway.

[Edited on 12-5-2004 by Ezekiel]

Originally posted by Agent47

Originally posted by Hoppinmad1
Unbiased tally
www.infoshout.com...
www.iraqbodycount.net...
conspiracy-history-news.joeuser.com...

For the record this enlightened poster sent me this as a U2U and I am suprised to see he would publicly post such crap.

Two sites are made by foreign peace activists and the third is a very shady conspiracy site.

Anything else I would want to add Mr. EXone has already touched on.

[Edited on 11-5-2004 by Agent47]

And what do you call this site if those are shady. I have read some super ridiculous stuff here. And does the fact that a database of those killed in the war is run by peace activists make it any less authentic. I don' t think so.

If you don't belive almost 17,000 iraqis have been killed think of this. How many times in the last year have you seen on the news about a few american soldiers being killed then them saying 30 or 40 or more iraqi fighters were killed also. Too many to number. With almost 800 american soldiers dead it's not hard to do the math. And think how many deaths havent been reported.

Blah Blah saddam was evil. But who made the u.s. the untilmate deciding authority on morality. The pro war activists like to ramble on about how good saddam is out of power. Sure take out one leader who does harm and incite millions of others to hate us. Makes lots of sense doesn't it. As many have said we made him who he was. Those weapons he made were made with american chemicals and other countrys also. Kuwait was cross drilling into his country also.

Like I said he was bad. But being brainwashed by the media into beliving that killing is ok for the sake of morality is just rediculous.

Originally posted by Agent47Whats insane are your figures. Where did you generate 10,000? Is that how high you can count, or is that the population of your home town? If you can give an unbiased tally that is above or at 10,000 then I retract my statements.

There are reasons we went to war, them being Saddam has killed millions and possessed the capability to kill millions more.

Here are some figures from Amnesty International:
Amnesty International

A year after the war began Iraqi civilians are still being killed every day. Over 10,000 Iraqi civilians are estimated to have been killed since 18 March 2003 as a direct result of the military intervention in Iraq, either during the war or during the subsequent occupation. The figure is an estimate as the authorities are unwilling or unable to catalogue killings. "We don't have the capacity to track all civilian casualties," US Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt told Reuters in February.

I don't find that 10,000 figure hard to believe, there were over 600 Iraqis killed just in one week in Fallujah in April.
USA Today

Asked about the report of 600 dead, Marine Lt. Col. Brennan Byrne said: "What I think you will find is 95% of those were military age males that were killed in the fighting."

"The Marines are trained to be precise in their firepower .... The fact that there are 600 goes back to the fact that the Marines are very good at what they do," he said.

Can you now post some reliable links to back up your claim that Saddam killed millions?

[Edited on 12-5-2004 by AceOfBase]

as quoted by AceOfBase
Can you now post some reliable links to back up your claim that Saddam killed millions?

Here you go AceOfBase:
Saddam and the Kurds

From within it:
Saddam Hussein & Human Rights Abuses

Since the regime fell in April 2003, U.S. and international forensics teams have searched for evidence of the scale and scope of the Baathist regime's human rights abuses. As of this date, there are more than 200 mass gravesites in Iraq. Some estimates place the number of victims of the regime at 300,000 to one million. Most gravesites are believed to contain the bodies of Shiite Muslims, as well as Kurds killed in the post-1991 war uprisings against Saddam Hussein.

And this:
More on Saddam's Human Rights Violations

And this:
Can Iraqi People Get Rid of Saddam on Their Own?

Since Saddam�s Baath Party seized power after a military coup in 1968, the regime has slaughtered nearly 2 million Iraqis, this is not an exaggeration, it is real, but the irony is that facts in Iraq are stranger than fictions.

More if needed.



seekerof

[Edited on 12-5-2004 by Seekerof]

Hoppinmad, this is what i've been saying since the war in afghanistan...

Countries like this need an iron fist to rule over them. There are too many people vying for power for a democracy to work. Look at afghanistan, the regional areas are now controlled by the Warlords who rule the areas and the government has little influence there... the same will happen in iraq... these people need someone to be in charge no questions asked. Maybe Saddam was a little TOO harsh, but the US'a calls for democracy are going to make the country worse... the USA should just get out and transfer power to the people of Iraw and let them decide what government they want.

I want to start this out with a nice picture check out the video too. www.gwu.edu...
HMM whos that mystery man. Thats 1983 you said saddams been murdering since 1967 hmmm...

Thank you ace of bass and special asian x. Amnesty international is kinda hard to argue against huh. What happened to and I quote agent 47 "If you can give an unbiased tally that is above or at 10,000 then I retract my statements." Hmm wheres that retraction? Remember these arent soldiers this is just the civlian toll. Not counting wounded.

Now you like to say that the baath party slaughtered millions. These people have been fighting basically a private civil war for decades. Its a power struggle and some are gonna lose. Armed religious groups have been trying to take control for decades. Whos responsible for their deaths. Them I think. You fight against your government and you might get killed.

Like asianx says when you have as many people in iraq as there are armed to the teeth struggling for power there are going to be consequences.

What do you think would happen if a large group of people armed themselves and tried to take over our government? Think it would be bloody. I think so. Our government keeps us in control with the fear of imprisonment(mental torture), Execution, Monetary Fines, and Physical Labor. I've said saddam did many terrible things. But at least he kept the country in control. He took it farther than he should many times I'm sure. But if you live in a society with strict laws with strict punishment I think I would be good don't you?

Heres links to executions since 1976 when the death penalty was reinstated.
www.clarkprosecutor.org... That is 907 people.

Also the u.s. has averged 373 police killings a year since 1976 which is around 10,000 people. Theres is no database on this as shown by a former ny times article shown here.
www.commondreams.org...

As of the end of 2002 there were over 2,033,331 prisoners that were held in Federal or State prisons or in local jails. www.ojp.usdoj.gov...
I can't find any info on deaths in prisons and abuse and such cuz the iraqi prison thing has clogged the search engines but I am sure it's signifigant.

Now is it clear that to keep a society in check a certain amount of evil is required. When a society has super radical islamic extremists fighting for any control they can muster. It's these extremist religion that calls for many deaths in the first place.

Heres an article about u.s. and other companies providing iraq with chemicals.
www.cnn.com...
So now lets think if saddams bathist regime has been slaughtering millions since 1967 don't you feel the u.s. is responsible for allowing the export of these chemicals. Hmmm....

Are we responsible for putting saddam in power? Heres a Congressional record written by a senator. Congressional Record: September 20, 2002 (Senate)
Page S8987-S8998
www.fas.org...

Are our former leaders and some present responsible also. Yes. I'm sure of it. Who's the real bad guy here. I think if you allow such wrongdoing go on and help someone do so much wrong a peacefull soltuion is a must. Like many have said let them make their own government. They don't want us there.

[Edited on 14-5-2004 by Hoppinmad1]

[Edited on 14-5-2004 by Hoppinmad1]

Hoppinmad1

Bravo Bravo... you have done all the research i am too lazy to do!!!
(that and being at work the number of sites i canvisit is very limited... i'm suprised ATS isnt blocked seeing as hotmail is)...

Yeah I feel the congressional record and the picture of saddam and rummy explains alot. We supported saddam because he hated iran. Iran and other arab countries took part in the oil embargo in the 70's, one reason we hated them. Iraq under saddam continued to sell us oil regardless of the embargo. Hence where his fortune came from mostly. It all goes back to oil and the u.s. ecomony.

Originally posted by Seekerof
Saddam was a good man.
Never did anything wrong worth mentioning in world opinion.
He didn't invade Kuwait, Kuwait invited him.
He never had WMD, the world and the UN made those stories, reports, and documentations up, even before and after the 1st Gulf War.
Those mass graves steadily being found and dug up today were not from his doing.
The Kurds are liars.
The Shi'ites are liars.
The Sunni are lairs.
He treated everyone with kindness and mercy.
The sanctions were illegial.
He was really a swell guy and should be put back into his position of authority.
The US and Coalition should repay all the war damage caused within 'his' country.
Reparations should be payed.

Saddam is the man and is the man that Iraq needs back today.



seekerof

Despite your obvious sarcasm, youre more right than you know.

Iraq needed someone like Saddam to sit on them to keep them from killing each other. So yeah. The only thing they understand is the sword.

The only reason they unite is because we are present there, a temporary alliance. Our presence unites them in killing us.

Once we leave they will go back to figting each other. Thats how it usually ends up, unless they have someone ruthless and brutal in charge to forcibly sit on them.

Well no new replies I was hoping to get more in depth but oh well.

My personal belief... but, this is just me... I think he was a severe dictator by all means... but I think by the way it looks right now for the US forces, the force and brutality was the thing keeping the peace. It is sad to say, but fear kept the factions from fighting and deciding to take control. The US is now having to go through many of the same things that Sadaam was doing.... Leaving certain parties from being involved in the political process, hunting down the clerics that disobey them, doing extreme torture and humiliation that goes against them, killing prisioners or people if they feel it is necessary (although on a smaller scale). But, I think that these things are having to be done or else the country would be split up by factions and religion. I am just being straight about the sitation. I personally do not understand anyones mind in this war. I am just calling it like I see it.