Court Martial or War Crimes Trial?

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posted on May, 8 2004 @ 03:07 PM
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The question doesn't seem to have been raised yet, but I'm sure it will be. We've all seen the pictures of the atrocities committed by US troops against Iraqi's held in US custody - now Rumsfeld tells us the worst is yet to come with both photos and video. Some of the offenses may include murder.

If these things happened to US soldiers or citizens we would be screaming for war crimes trials for crimes against humanity, and rightfully so. Given what I've seen so far, there's nothing that should stop us from turning these sadistic a$$*&^%$ over for trial by an international court or war crimes tribunal if requested.

The US has always been very careful in UN resolutions and the like to specifically get an exepmtion for its soldiers to protect them from, essentially, international politics. The actions we've seen deserve scrutiny of the international courts. Quite frankly, I can't understand why they aren't behind bars right now. They are a disgrace to our country!





posted on May, 8 2004 @ 03:10 PM
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If these things had hapened to our children we would be screaming bloody murder. But Americans know best, so let's bend the rules a bit, we don't need another WW to prove war kills........



posted on May, 8 2004 @ 03:12 PM
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They are a disgrace to this country. And we certainly would be screaming war crimes if this were done by someone else to our own.

I vote for war crimes trials.



posted on May, 8 2004 @ 03:12 PM
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If these things happened to US soldiers or citizens....


"If"? "IF" thse things happened? Huh?
They have happened!

Were they called "atrocities" or crimes against humanity?
Bah....

The US will court martial them. The UN and its criminal World Court won't even come close to placing a lasting judgement on them. The US will treat it as it should, a US matter.



seekerof



posted on May, 8 2004 @ 03:18 PM
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Originally posted by Seekerof
"If"? "IF" thse things happened? Huh?
They have happened!

Were they called "atrocities" or crimes against humanity?
Bah....

The US will court martial them. The UN and its criminal World Court won't even come close to placing a lasting judgement on them. The US will treat it as it should, a US matter.



seekerof


Of course US soldiers have been tortured. In many wars. Heck, in the Civil War, Americans tortured Americans. I was speaking in a general way.

But, tell me, if the Nazi War Crimes trials were not the business of the Germans, why are these war crimes only the business of the US? Seems to me there is a double standard being applied here somewhere.

I don't like double standards. They are unAmerican. Didn't we all grow up pledging, "Freedom and Justice for all"? I don't ever remember pledging, "Freedom and Justice for all, if they are lucky enough to be American."



posted on May, 8 2004 @ 03:22 PM
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Originally posted by glee
But, tell me, if the Nazi War Crimes trials were not the business of the Germans, why are these war crimes only the business of the US? Seems to me there is a double standard being applied here somewhere.


But, that was WORLD WAR II, not a war between the US and Iraq. I don't see the double standard here.
The Nazis were killing off many nationalities and invading foreign countries. Not the same at all.



posted on May, 8 2004 @ 03:31 PM
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Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
But, that was WORLD WAR II, not a war between the US and Iraq. I don't see the double standard here.
The Nazis were killing off many nationalities and invading foreign countries. Not the same at all.


If the Nazis had only invaded Austria and tortured and murdered people there, those acts wouldn't have been war crimes?

Sorry, just because it's the US and Iraq, doesn't mean the US gets special dispensation to commit atrocities. Many of the Iraqis fighting us consider themselves patriots. They think we invaded their country. For them, our declaration that the war is over means nothing.

If we want to prove that the US stands by its principles, we must be prepared to submit to the same standards of conduct and judgement we require others submit to. No excuses.



posted on May, 8 2004 @ 03:37 PM
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Originally posted by Seekerof

If these things happened to US soldiers or citizens....


"If"? "IF" thse things happened? Huh?
They have happened!

Were they called "atrocities" or crimes against humanity?
Bah....

The US will court martial them. The UN and its criminal World Court won't even come close to placing a lasting judgement on them. The US will treat it as it should, a US matter.



seekerof


SO
I agree with you, they have happened, and we should scream bloody murder. The problem is, it's a lot easier to do when our hands are clean.

Let's face it, these guys were already in prison when this stuff started. There is no excuse. If we try them, the Arab world will cry coverup. The fact is, as it relates to crimes against humanity, let the international courts have it. At least no one can claim the US went easy on its own. If we want to do it right, let's court martial them first for military code of conduct violations and then let the internatioanl courts have their way.

Who knows, we might even show the world we're tougher on our own.



posted on May, 8 2004 @ 03:49 PM
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Originally posted by CommonSense
Let's face it, these guys were already in prison when this stuff started. There is no excuse. If we try them, the Arab world will cry coverup. The fact is, as it relates to crimes against humanity, let the international courts have it. At least no one can claim the US went easy on its own. If we want to do it right, let's court martial them first for military code of conduct violations and then let the internatioanl courts have their way.

Who knows, we might even show the world we're tougher on our own.


A great solution, Commonsense. I see why you use that as your username.



posted on May, 8 2004 @ 04:10 PM
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Thanks glee, I was surprised the name was available when I registered last month. If you like, feel free to use my signature. Personally, I like that even better.



posted on May, 8 2004 @ 04:13 PM
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Originally posted by Seekerof
"If"? "IF" thse things happened? Huh?
They have happened!

Were they called "atrocities" or crimes against humanity?
Bah....

The US will court martial them. The UN and its criminal World Court won't even come close to placing a lasting judgement on them. The US will treat it as it should, a US matter.



seekerof


I have to agree with you on that. The US should deal with it as a domestic problem. Plus the only thing the UN will do is probably comment on the matter.



posted on May, 8 2004 @ 04:25 PM
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No common sense there. We do not do double jeopardy. We do not punish and then allow the world punish them again. That is inhumane.

We do not need war crimes courts as we take care of our own. We recognize that doing such things is wrong. Do you see the difference between us a Nazi Germany?

Why must the simple stuff be spelled out? Notice, the difference is that we become aware of it ourselves, we report it ourselves and then we rectafy the problem ourselves. Nazi Germany did not perceive their heinous crimes as being such, and they had no intentions of punishing those who did as they were instructed to do.

The fact that you guys can't grasp the difference is really beginning to scare the Hell out of me.



posted on May, 8 2004 @ 04:49 PM
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Originally posted by infinite

I have to agree with you on that. The US should deal with it as a domestic problem. Plus the only thing the UN will do is probably comment on the matter.


Infinite,
I never said the world would deal with them as they should. It's a good chance to let the world see how weak the UN/ Internatioanl courts really are!



posted on May, 8 2004 @ 05:02 PM
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Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
No common sense there. We do not do double jeopardy. We do not punish and then allow the world punish them again. That is inhumane.

We do not need war crimes courts as we take care of our own. We recognize that doing such things is wrong. Do you see the difference between us a Nazi Germany?

Why must the simple stuff be spelled out? Notice, the difference is that we become aware of it ourselves, we report it ourselves and then we rectafy the problem ourselves. Nazi Germany did not perceive their heinous crimes as being such, and they had no intentions of punishing those who did as they were instructed to do.

The fact that you guys can't grasp the difference is really beginning to scare the Hell out of me.


It is not double jeopardy. The court martial would be for military offenses, and the war crimes trials would be for war crimes. These people have not committed a single, simple offense; they have committed multiple offenses against multiple jurisdictions.

What do you think we should do? Say to the world: "Oh, you can trust us to judge and discipline our own properly and fairly?" I'm sorry. These problems were known long before the pictures came out. There was an internal military document alerting upper military about potential problems. The Red Cross had reported abuses. Our leadership turned a blind eye. Our government did not take the action necessary to allow us, as a nation, to "report it ourselves."

A whistleblower reported it. And they did their mom and dad proud when they did it, too. A real American, who understands the principles this country was founded on. What happens after they blow the whistle? Everybody involved starts making excuses and passing the buck.

So, I can't agree with you about "taking care of our own". That's exactly how other countries would see it, and in the worst light. The world doesn't trust our leadership in this matter (and in a lot of other matters) now, and for good reason. The Iraqis victims deserve impartial justice and the right to face their tormentors in an impartial court.

These are war crimes and they need to be handled as war crimes. We don't get special treatment because we are the US. And we shouldn't ask for it.

Now, before anyone attacks me. Some Iraqis have their own bloody crimes to answer for. Since they present themselves as patriot soldiers, they are answerable to a war crimes court, too.



posted on May, 8 2004 @ 05:07 PM
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Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
No common sense there. We do not do double jeopardy. We do not punish and then allow the world punish them again. That is inhumane.



TC,
At this point we need it as proof to the world. Give it to them. If they don't accept it, well F*** E*. The fact is, based on what's happened, we need to say to the world - you judge. As far as double jeopardy, well it doesn't apply here because it can't happen. Under international law, these are crimes against humanity. Under US law these are crimes against military code of conduct. No DJ! Do I like it -- NO.

Is Terry Nichols current case double jeopardy. I guess not, these are state charges vs the federal charges he was already convicted of. The fact is they're different!

Another good example is the case of Andrea Yates, the obviously insane mother of 5 who drownded her children based on voices of God. Texas charged her with 3 of the murders, not 5. They wanted to make sure they had "two bites at the apple" (a legal phrase) just in case the first jury found her insane (which she clearly was). This was clearly the greatest opportunity to violate DJ that I've ever seen!

With these $hit$, there is no DJ. They've violated US law, International law and the Geneva Convention and they dare to call themselves Americans. Verdict!



posted on May, 8 2004 @ 05:12 PM
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glee,
Great post. I saw a picture of the guy on TV that reported the abuse. My suggestion, plastic surgery, move to the Yukon and keep low. I glad he blew the whistle. I hope the rest get exactly what they deserve!



posted on May, 8 2004 @ 05:28 PM
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CS, I do not give to craps about whatthe rest of the world allegedly want or need as proof. As a matter of fact, they do not need this as proof. Why would they? We hide nothing. The fact that these dirtbags are going to be enjoying a nice stay at Leavenworth is a given, and hopefully, the chain of command from the squad leader to the Companyt Commander is going to be leaving their careers behind.

I am not in the mindset to say we appease anybody. Those who are with us know who and what we are. Those who are not can go suck an ape's toe for all I care, so I do not care what they think. As a matter of fact, screw them. Who are we talking about appeasing and making happy? The Middle East? You mean those wretched creatures who danced in the streets as the towers went down? Or maybe the French? You know, the guys who knew Hussein was a part of the Terror network and even gave us intel on it, while they refused to be a part of the coalition because they were making money with Hussein under the table? Please. We handle our own dirtbags, just as we've always done. They may be dirtbags and degenerates, but the world that hates us is not going to take them and put them on display just to ridicule the nation from which they came.



posted on May, 8 2004 @ 05:39 PM
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TC,
I'm not against you. I believe these dirtbags get everything we can think of!

We do not appease. I do not appease!!!! If someone is guilty, well F*** Em. If these moronic bastard$ did what the pictures clearly show, we have laws, the international community has laws. Let the courts go to work!!!!

To the asshles who danced in the streets as innocent people died, pardon me, but where the hell was the mafia?! Show your true colors!

As far as the French! Notwithstanding the entire width of the Atlantic, these bastards were still afraid to stand up for the truth, even 60 years later!



posted on May, 8 2004 @ 05:48 PM
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I feel your pain.

Tell me, the female that is going to be busted to Heck and back; she was not even assigned to the prison but only came around to visit. What kind of freakin' leadership allows visitors in the prison? Where is the control of weapons, contraband, etc.? Again, breakdown of discipline.

And while I'm at it, I keep hearing about the fact that contractors were the ones who raped and beat and all that. Under what chain of command do they fall? Is it not still the responsibility of the MP Commander to insure the prison is run properly?



posted on May, 8 2004 @ 05:52 PM
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CS, I'll be the first to admit I've been in a terribly ill mood the last several weeks, but I really really think that my desire to see the ones first hand responsible hang and their company level leadership kicked out of the Army in disgrace a logical point of view. Lovable tyke, I am, but there is no excuse.

I've never heard of a courts martial being televised. How about that? Let the world see it, and then hear the verdict and penalty?





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