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Court Martial or War Crimes Trial?

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posted on May, 8 2004 @ 05:58 PM
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Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
I feel your pain.

Tell me, the female that is going to be busted to Heck and back; she was not even assigned to the prison but only came around to visit. What kind of freakin' leadership allows visitors in the prison?




[Edited on 5/9/2004 by CommonSense]




posted on May, 10 2004 @ 11:28 AM
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Well, with the first court martial date now set, do you think the punishment will be tough enough to avoid an international war crimes trial?



posted on May, 10 2004 @ 11:34 AM
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The US is completely willing and able to take care of their own problem children. And those of you that are crying for the death penalty for those who carried out these abuses are just blind reactionaries. Think about it... should these people really die? I don't think so.

The perpetrators will be dealt with swiftly and in accordance with UCMJ. And they will be gone, and no one will ever have to worry about them thereafter.



posted on May, 10 2004 @ 03:13 PM
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DC,
Don't get me wrong, I not calling for the death penalty. I only have two points.

1) Given the nature of the crime and being at war, does this fall to our jurisdiction or that of the international courts?

2) Given the opinions of the rest of the world, let's assume we try them and sentence them to 15 years, compared to a sentence of 5 years if tried internationally. Notwithstanding potentially dealing out a more severe punishment ourselves, I tthink the world is just screwed up enough to say we would have gone easy on them.

I also think it's important to remember that these weren't innocent chior boys in the prison.



posted on May, 10 2004 @ 03:36 PM
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Originally posted by CommonSense
DC,
Don't get me wrong, I not calling for the death penalty. I only have two points.

1) Given the nature of the crime and being at war, does this fall to our jurisdiction or that of the international courts?

It would only fall under the jurisdiction of the UCMJ, because one of the first things GW did was pull us out of the international court system, which I believe was a good thing, because I think it's important that we police our own. Another thing he did, incidentally, was pull out of the ABM treaty so he could start testing his new nukes, which is bad, very baaad.

2) Given the opinions of the rest of the world, let's assume we try them and sentence them to 15 years, compared to a sentence of 5 years if tried internationally. Notwithstanding potentially dealing out a more severe punishment ourselves, I tthink the world is just screwed up enough to say we would have gone easy on them.

I won't be surprised when no one does more than 5 for this anyway. People don't generally understand this, but really, the bad conduct discharge is a pretty bad punishment, too. That carries a lot of consequences, but the civilian populous probably won't soon understand, and niether will Iraqis, so it won't seem to anyone that there has been any punishment conferred. It will actually seem that there was no one punished, but if Rummy goes down, that would be a much better show of faith. I believe the extremists intend to punish us in their own way anyway.

I also think it's important to remember that these weren't innocent chior boys in the prison.

That is very true, but from the point of view of the extremists, they are as good as living martyrs. To them, these people could not have possibly done any wrong, and they probably think now that they were placed in the prison by Allah, so that they could be 'touched' by the Great Satan, and thus bring more fighters to the cause. I don't know what they think, but if I were a crazy, overzealous religious extremist, that's certainly how I'd try to play it up. It's all about the propaganda now...



posted on May, 10 2004 @ 03:58 PM
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Originally posted by DeltaChaos

It would only fall under the jurisdiction of the UCMJ, because one of the first things GW did was pull us out of the international court system, which I believe was a good thing, because I think it's important that we police our own. Another thing he did, incidentally, was pull out of the ABM treaty so he could start testing his new nukes, which is bad, very baaad.



I agree regarding GW when this thing first started. In fact, I think I referenced that when I opened this thread. The question I have however, is that this is not in a grey area, nor is it subject to dispute. I know a lot of lawyers that would just love to yank the exemption out from under us.



posted on May, 10 2004 @ 04:15 PM
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Originally posted by CommonSense
I know a lot of lawyers that would just love to yank the exemption out from under us.
Our exemption from the int'l courts? I don't see how they could. Any foreign lawyer wouldn't have jurisdiction to undermine American soveriegnty, and any American lawyer would probably be squashed by the Attourney General like a bug. Especially the current one, you know what I mean?

I acknowledge the possibility that I may have completely misunderstood what you were trying to say here, so if it seems like I'm not making any sense, know that it is becuase you weren't making any sense first!



posted on May, 10 2004 @ 04:19 PM
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Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
... the female that is going to be busted to Heck and back; she was not even assigned to the prison but only came around to visit. What kind of freakin' leadership allows visitors in the prison?
All the more reason for the leadership of the units involved to go down hard. This is purely a command issue for allowing lax standards and lack of proper supervision. Remember, they are accountable for all that their unit does and does not do, so they are ultimately accountable, and should acknowledge this themselves.

That's why I got so pissed when that BGinC said something to the effect that 'there was no one in particular to blame for this, and that it was the fault of many'. The fault of many, yes, but they are all to blame equally. I've never thought a BG could be so unaccountable for themselves... What a sham(e).



posted on May, 10 2004 @ 04:47 PM
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Court Martial for the grunts, War crimes for Rumsfiled, Cheney & Bush.



posted on May, 10 2004 @ 07:59 PM
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if u read the geneva convention
it says in article 13 of section2
that
Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated. Any unlawful act or omission by the Detaining Power causing death or seriously endangering the health of a prisoner of war in its custody is prohibited, and will be regarded as a serious breach of the present Convention

now forgive me but doesnt that make it a war crime
frankly i hate how our forces are potrayed as monsters becuase of some stupid grunts but this is still technically a war crime



posted on May, 10 2004 @ 08:13 PM
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Yes, these acts are crimes of war. The individuals who committed them need to be punished, but that doesn't change the fact that these things happened at a US POW camp, and those prisoner's rights were violated with what happened....it should not have been allowed to happen, and the military leaders should be held responsible as well.



posted on May, 10 2004 @ 08:20 PM
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George Bush said that if anyone was found to be misteating American prisoners they would be tried as war criminals... shouldn't that work both ways? Or did bush say that in hope that no-one would discover the interrogation techniques used...

also i would like to see if digital cameras will be allowed on future tours of iraq and other campaigns (coz i'm sure if bush stays in office there will be more)...



posted on May, 10 2004 @ 09:52 PM
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This is almost not worth arguing over...it is a war crime plain and simple. It violates international law, specifically the geneva conventions, and everyone in the chain of command starting from Cheney on down should be put on trial...that is completely different from us punishing the others involved with a crime here in the US...even if the US was found guilty of war crimes, nothing would be done about it anyway...



posted on May, 10 2004 @ 10:39 PM
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Glee, for not watching this thread more carefully.

I agree that these things have happened to our fighting men. My choice of words may not have been in line with my thinking. Certainly 'if' was not taken in the same context as was meant.

Should our fighting men have been so treated, in this instance, and shamelessly humiliated in front of the world in violation of human rights, personal dignity, and the Geneva Convention, we would scream bloody murder.

If any of you would like to prove otherwise, then send your son or daughter into slavery, degradation, physical torture, and sexual abuse.
Make sure you get video.
Have a party. Serve popcorn and beer.
Share the video with friends.
Then come back and tell truly how one should feel.


With apologies Glee,

G






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