Sadr Aide-Female soldiers can be kept as slaves

Originally posted by xenophanes85

Originally posted by jsobecky
... I haven't, however, seen too many Christian clerics or whatever they call themselves calling for enslavement in the name of their God, all the while with an assault rifle at his side.

Apologies were wasted on them, appeasement is impossible for those who want a return to an ancient, violent, theocratic rule of the people.

Ever hear of the Crusades jsobecky? You know, the conversion/extermination of non-Christian peoples, the *GASP* Jihad of the 11th-13th centuries?

[Edited on 5/10/04 by xenophanes85]

Sure have. We "learned" all about them in parochial school. We also learned about Attila the Hun and others. What's your point? We're living in the 21st century.

The point is, you can't just single out Islam for the sake of argument. Christianity is a 'sinful' religion too, weather its sinful actions happened in the 21st or 12th centrury. You have to look at both sides, and then chose a problem Islam has that Christianity doesn't. In the eyes of the Crusaders, what they did wasn't a jihad, unlike the extremist Muslims who know it's jihad whenever they attack a Western interest. To the world however, both are acts of terrorism, jihad, and war.

[Edited on 5/11/04 by xenophanes85]

Text BlueText
Sudan has long been a slaving state.It's my belief the concept of "organized Religeon" is in fact niether. The ignorance of the entire affair; there was photographic evidence, period.
"softening" of prisoners has been practiced by combatants since cavemen threw the first stone, slavery as well for that matter. As distasteful as tossing a VC from a huey or Dr. Mengela's plethera of experiment on POW's,reality of war is not civilized nor is it meant to be rationalized from the comfort of your computer station.

You're right. There is no point in singling out Islam. They're all guilty, Christians and muslims. They'll never get along. But the longer they scream "Kill in the name of " the longer the violence will continue. Islam wants to destroy my country. I have a problem with that.



[Edited on 11-5-2004 by jsobecky]

Originally posted by jsobecky
There is no point in singling out Islam. They're all guilty, Christians and muslims.

That's right. They're no better one or another. THey're all guilty. Religions drive people crazy.

I can't hardly imagine crazy extremists people if religion didn't existed.

"Islam wants to destroy my country."

Islam doesn't want to destroy your country. Any more than Christians want to destroy Iraq because the bible teaches them not to worship any other Gods except Jehova. Islam is a theology. It has no will other than that which is perpetrated by its followers.

a tiny, tiny tiny percentage of its followers want to destroy your country.

But its no different from the tiny tiny percentage of right wing Christian a-holes who want to destroy Islam.

More to the point, The US is the invasive force. It doesn't matter how much we say we're not there to destroy Islam, quite a number of Muslims will believe that is our intent even if they are fundamentally happy about our presence. Imagine if the US was liberated by an Invasive Islamic force. Do you think that the vast hoards of Christians, would be happy with an Islamic force turning up and reforming our society based on the teachings of Islam. Their intent would not be hostile but millions of Christians would still feel their society was being stripped away to be replaced by that of a people they don't understand but assume they disagree with.

Originally posted by Simon
... Imagine if the US was liberated by an Invasive Islamic force. Do you think that the vast hoards of Christians, would be happy with an Islamic force turning up and reforming our society based on the teachings of Islam. Their intent would not be hostile but millions of Christians would still feel their society was being stripped away to be replaced by that of a people they don't understand but assume they disagree with.

VERY well put. I like the use of the word 'liberated' as it related to the so called "Operation Iraqi Freedom" idiots war. The rest of your post explaind this pretty well also. I think the jihadists have every right to hate this country and its imperialist tactics, especially in light of what was recently revealed. Why do 'we' hate the Iraqis and other Jihadist Muslims? Becasue the hate us - no other reason that that. They have a reason, we don't. But then again, were the arrogant United States - since when did we need a reason for meddling in other countries affairs and forcing democracy on other parts of the world?

[Edited on 5/11/04 by xenophanes85]

Originally posted by me
"Islam wants to destroy my country."

from Simon:

Islam doesn't want to destroy your country.

a tiny, tiny tiny percentage of its followers want to destroy your country.

A tiny tiny percentage, in organizations with clout, like CAIR:

Omar Ahmad

Co-founder of the Council on American-Islamic Relations
President & CEO of Silicon Expert Technologies, he is a Palestinian who grew up in a refugee camp in Jordan.

"Muslim institutions, schools and economic power should be strengthened in America. Those who stay in America should be open to society without melting, keeping Mosques open so anyone can come and learn about Islam. If you choose to live here, you have a responsibility to deliver the message of Islam ...... Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faiths, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth."
-Omar Ahmad

or, from another peaceful "liberator" in CAIR:

Nihad Awad

Executive Director of CAIR
Former public relations director for the Islamic
Association of Palestine (IAP) A palestinian born
in Jordan and now a U.S. Citizen.

" I am in support of the Hamas movement."

-Nihad Awad

Do you think that the vast hoards of Christians, would be happy with an Islamic force turning up and reforming our society based on the teachings of Islam.

Reform? It depends. Will the reformers start their reform with the oppression of women that is one of the hallmarks of their enlightened "liberation"?

And why limit the opposition to the "vast hoards of Christians"? I would include the vast majority of US citizens in the opposition. And, I would be correct.

Sorry but that's simple paranoia.

Changing the dominant faith of your country does not destroy it even if it were possible.

I live in the UK. The dominant theology here is Christianity. I am an Atheist.

Does it affect me ? not a bit. Christians get on with their Christian lives and I get on with mine. More over to ensure Christianity isn't forced on anyone the people are removing it from our schools laws and politics.

If Islam became the majority faith in the US ( and that's an If which is simply never going to happen ) But if it did, it would affect your life laws and politics as much as Christianity does now. Your society is not set up to allow the dominant theology to force its ideals on the people.

Some of you feel It has too much sway, others that it has too little, but ultimately its just a theology. A dominant Islamic theology in the US would not mean you all had to start wearing Burqas.

( as a side note I was talking to a Muslim friend of mine a month or so ago who was telling me Burqas were pretty much a fashion necessity amongst young Asian girls in the UK. They're making a big come back. I found it a handy wake up call that reminded me that through the eyes of one culture choice can look like oppression )

Originally posted by Simon

Sorry but that's simple paranoia.

Changing the dominant faith of your country does not destroy it even if it were possible.

I don't believe that for a second. Name one country based on Islam that has the same freedoms that the US has.

If Islam became the majority faith in the US ( and that's an If which is simply never going to happen ) But if it did, it would affect your life laws and politics as much as Christianity does now. Your society is not set up to allow the dominant theology to force its ideals on the people.

So I guess I misunderstood the thrust of the following:

The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth."

( as a side note I was talking to a Muslim friend of mine a month or so ago who was telling me Burqas were pretty much a fashion necessity amongst young Asian girls in the UK. They're making a big come back. I found it a handy wake up call that reminded me that through the eyes of one culture choice can look like oppression )

And I hear that the crown of thorns is making a big comeback among the S&M crowd. Just goes to show you that it's all in the eye of the beholder.

In other words, you're saying that a primitive, demeaning ritual, when performed voluntarily, transforms the evil into a fashion statement? Try again, Simon.

Originally posted by xenophanes85
The point is, you can't just single out Islam for the sake of argument. Christianity is a 'sinful' religion too, weather its sinful actions happened in the 21st or 12th centrury. You have to look at both sides, and then chose a problem Islam has that Christianity doesn't. In the eyes of the Crusaders, what they did wasn't a jihad, unlike the extremist Muslims who know it's jihad whenever they attack a Western interest. To the world however, both are acts of terrorism, jihad, and war.

[Edited on 5/11/04 by xenophanes85]

Yes, we can single out islam. Christianity has moved beyond the dark ages. Slavery is a sin in Christianity now.

Islam, on the otherhand, continues to condone slavery, it always has. Slavery is perfectly permissable under Islamic law.

In Saudi Arabia, they still keep slaves, un notcied by many. Slave women from western and Asian countires are kept there often. They still engage in taking slaves in Africa. Many of those black slaves captured are often sent to the middle east to serve.

So, this in itself is not so hard to believe, given the nature of the middle east and its culture.

This ind of mentality is, when I was stationed in Saudi Arabia, the main reason my battle buddy and I, made a pact to kill one another should capture be imminenet. I remeber a couple foreign workers, mainly from the philipines and Afghanistan, telling me what happens to enslaved foreign women.

Salaam All,
OH MAN not again , why is it that honest and well respected Muslim Borther and Sisters have to answer to the bad deeds of bad Muslims. Then the people who see this automatically say "This is ISLAM"!!!
Its quite sad to see this, do you think i as a Muslim, when i fist heard of the rapes in the Church and even when my uncle who is now a Heroin Addict got raped by there Praiest's, thought straight away "OMG Jesus tought his people how to RAPE!!", NO, NO, NO, NO.
How stupid and ignorent it would be of me to do this!!!
Anyway it is a well known fact that when Islam came along to Arabia, there was Salvery, Muhammad(pbuh) gave rights to slave, gave them rights to leave and to get paid by there masters!!!
IF THESE "PEOPLE" practise this crap, SLAVERY, RAPE etc etc, they are doing it because they are human after all, they are evil doers, they are not following Qur'an, but might be following what there great ancestors done before them, it has nothing to do with Islam.

I wonder what's next on the Menu for Islam on ATS???

Salaam,
Ciao Amigos

"I don't believe that for a second. Name one country based on Islam that has the same freedoms that the US has."

Firstly, Islam is a theology that is entered into voluntarily. When any theology takes control of a country its a bad idea, can you imagine a Christian run country ? not a nice idea. What were talking about here is a dominant theology within a political context.
For example Areas of the UK are predominantly Islamic. Do the people who live in them have the same freedoms as I do ? yes.

Secondly, I don't quite understand your position in Iraq.
Presumably we are working to give them the same freedoms as people in the US. If Successful won't it be an Islamic country with the freedoms of the US or do you believe that in order to liberate it we must convert the people of Iraq to a different faith ?

Your post is really rather revealing. You seem to perceive Islam as the problem. Its not.

"So I guess I misunderstood the thrust of the following:"

"The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth."

No, you didn't misunderstand it but you didn't think about it in context. The pope believes that Catholicism should be the only accepted religion in the world.

More to the point, I have Jehovah witnesses coming round to my house at least once a month to convince me that the Christian God is the only God and that if I don't accept that I'm going to hell. I have NEVER had a Muslim come to my house and tell me I have to accept Islam. Have you ? has anyone ?

Again, Islam is not the problem.

"And I hear that the crown of thorns is making a big comeback among the S&M crowd."

I'd love you to back that up. Go for it.

!In other words, you're saying that a primitive, demeaning ritual, when performed voluntarily, transforms the evil into a fashion statement?"

No, I'm saying that what you see as a primitive demeaning ritual is, for young Muslim women in Britain, nothing of the sort.

you really need to go talk to some practicing US Muslims about this. I doubt you'll find them to be oppressed.

"Yes, we can single out Islam. Christianity has moved beyond the dark ages. Slavery is a sin in Christianity now.
Islam, on the other hand, continues to condone slavery, it always has. Slavery is perfectly permissable under Islamic law. "

I am getting so bored of this. How the hell can some of you live in the US where you have demonstrable evidence that what your saying is crap and still say it.

Ok, there's this huge community of people in the US right, They don't let their women reveal any skin from the neck up because its is to tempting for the men ( who will obviously be incited to rape at the first indication of a bare ankle ) They live in closed communities deeply suspicious of outsiders who they consider to be devils living in the devils world. Machinery and technology, even Man made materials are outlawed. Insestual relationships are common, in many ways they could be said to be living in the dark ages. Do they practice Islam ? no. They're Amish.

Down the street from you, there's a middle class family living what you would consider a normal western life. The kids go to school, Both the wife and the husband go to work, they throw dinner party's wear jeans and T-shirts use the internet drive a 4x4 and are all practicing Muslims.

Islam, like any other theology has different levels of practice. To say one cleric or denomination speaks for all of them is like saying every Preacher agrees with the reverend Jimmy Jones.

why don't you people THINK before you post. Your coming across as blinkered idiots.

Originally posted by Simon
Ok, there's this huge community of people in the US right, They don't let their women reveal any skin from the neck up because its is to tempting for the men ( who will obviously be incited to rape at the first indication of a bare ankle ) They live in closed communities deeply suspicious of outsiders who they consider to be devils living in the devils world. Machinery and technology, even Man made materials are outlawed. Insestual relationships are common, in many ways they could be said to be living in the dark ages. Do they practice Islam ? no. They're Amish.

Ya well...

You don't see the Amish folk strapping bombs to their a$$es do ya ?

But you see seventh day Adventists doing it. You see "survivalists" blowing up your buildings, you see teenagers shooting up your schools, you see god fearing communities gunning each other down and selling crack to each other.

You know that in Islamic community's in the UK there is practically no alcohol or drug problems ? We reserve those for our middle class white Christian kids.
get a grip. Faith is not the problem. Islam is not the problem. Christianity is not the problem. The problem is extreme view points and actions using theology as justification for atrocity.

there are approximately 300,000,000 people living in the US 0.5 % of them are practicing Muslims.

That's 1.5 million Muslims currently living in the US.

Have you had 1.5 million suicide bombings this year ? er... no

You have 2,000,000 people currently in Jail. If we use national statistics then its a rough but fair assumption to say that 10,000 of them are Muslims, that means 1,990,000 of them are of other faiths. Given that the US is approximately 75% Christian 1.5 million people currently considered to be criminal are practicing Christians. ( ironic isn't it )

So. Given those statistics. Which faith is more of a threat to you ?

[Edited on 14-5-2004 by Simon]

Well...

Given those stats...you got a link to prove it ?

I still think radical Islamist's are the most dangerous religon in the world, because they have no one to answer to besides their God Allah, in which from what I understand condems the killing innocent people and non-combantants...

Population of the US -
www.census.gov...

Distribution of religion -
www.teachingaboutreligion.org...

Population in US prisons -
www.ojp.usdoj.gov...

The point you made about Muslims having no one to answer to but Allah and that Islam condemns the killing of innocents is exactly my point. That's what 1.5 million US Muslims believe. That's why they don't blow people up. That's why "Muslims" or "Islam" is not the problem. Its the tiny percentage of extremists who claim to be part of the Islamic faith and use it as justification for their actions that are the problem.

David Koresh does not represent "seventh day adventists" or "davidians"

Rev. Jim Jones does not represent "christians" in fact its pretty hard to see any connection between the teachings in the bible and his "peoples church"

Abu Musab al-Zarqawi does not represent "Islam" or "Muslims"

Ahhh...

I see we are on somewhat the same page...

No...not all muslims and islamists strap bombs to their a$$es, but it seems like these radicels do...

So what do we do to stop the problem ?

The clerics don't seem to have the power, all they can do is condem the action, and their not listen to, because these actions still happen ( and have been even before the "War on Terrorism" )...

So what do we do ???

Originally posted by Simon

From me:
"I don't believe that for a second. Name one country based on Islam that has the same freedoms that the US has."

Firstly, Islam is a theology that is entered into voluntarily. When any theology takes control of a country its a bad idea, can you imagine a Christian run country ? not a nice idea.

So what is your answer to my question above?

For example Areas of the UK are predominantly Islamic. Do the people who live in them have the same freedoms as I do ? yes.

Of course they do. Islam is not the law of the land in the UK, as far as I know. Areas of the US are predomiinantly Islam. They enjoy the same freedoms as I do, because they live under the laws of the USA.

Secondly, I don't quite understand your position in Iraq.
Presumably we are working to give them the same freedoms as people in the US. If Successful won't it be an Islamic country with the freedoms of the US or do you believe that in order to liberate it we must convert the people of Iraq to a different faith ?

No, the best thing would be for the Iraqis to be a democracy with freedom of religion for all, and separation of church and state. Those two concepts cannot co-exist in an Islamic nation.

No, you didn't misunderstand it but you didn't think about it in context. The pope believes that Catholicism should be the only accepted religion in the world.

I have never heard the pope say that catholicism should be the highest authority in the US. I have heard the pope give his blessings and warmest love to people of all faiths the world over. I have never heard that from an Islamic leader. Saying that a religion should be the highest authority in a nation has political ramifications.

More to the point, I have Jehovah witnesses coming round to my house at least once a month to convince me that the Christian God is the only God and that if I don't accept that I'm going to hell. I have NEVER had a Muslim come to my house and tell me I have to accept Islam. Have you ? has anyone ?

Not in America, no. I cannot say the same for an Islamic nation.

No, I'm saying that what you see as a primitive demeaning ritual is, for young Muslim women in Britain, nothing of the sort.

First you said it was young Asian women in Britain. Now you are broadening the description to be Asian Islamics, I presume?

Regardless. It means nothing at all. The real answer lies in whether they are allowed to not wear the burqa at all times, if they choose. Can they do that in Saudi Arabia? Can an American woman marry a Saudi, live there, and not ever cover her face or her legs?

you really need to go talk to some practicing US Muslims about this. I doubt you'll find them to be oppressed.

Only because they live under the flag of American freedom. That is the reason they are here and not in Saudi Arabia or Syria or Jordan, where they could not live as they do here.

The real question is, does any Islamic nation have the same freedoms that we do here in the US? No, they do not, and the religion does not allow it to be so. It is not about Islam vs Christianity. It is about Islam.