Robert McNamara Dead

I've seen bits and pieces of the Fog of War. What cracks me up is in the beginning when he says to the effect, "Perhaps one (as a military leader) is responsible for thousands, tens of thousands, etc. of deaths...."

He was responsible for MILLIONS of people dying by his actions and decisions, including 58,000 American soldiers. He ruins his credibility right from the onset by understating his military blunders.

And then he's like, "Well, at least we didn't destroy nations by starting a nuclear war." Give me a break! As if the millions that died in Vietnam wasn't bad enough.

It makes me so sick to see him all smug and arrogant in these videos trying to justify his mistakes that cost millions of lives. I guess if you get a Harvard degree, it entitles you to make lousy decisions and act like a complete imbecile.

(What is it with Harvard, anyways? Hank Paulson, Bush, even Gov. Granholm graduated from that mental midget institution. Why do they turn out so many lousy politicians and leaders? What a joke.)

This video is basically looking back on what a complete moron he was, and him trying to justify his bad decisions.

I am sure all the Vietnam vets that were injured or died in the war appreciate your candor, Mr. McNamara. Thanks for the memories.

[edit on 6-7-2009 by CookieMonster09]

Thanks for posting this. Luckily I work at a library and we have this video so I'll be checking it out tomorrow! Meanwhile, perusing the replies here is most interesting.

reply to post by solidshot


I met him in 1982, I shook his hand. How time flies!

I'll handle this with a bit more care than I did when Tony Snow died, but my overall opinion remains the same.

Robert McNamara served as Secretary of Defense during a war that was not only a major blunder and a fraud for the United States, but also resulted in the deaths of almost 6 million people.

He most likely knew something about the assassination of John F. Kennedy, - which was because of his challenging of the Federal Reserve - he served as the President of the World Bank, and he was a member of the Council on Foreign Relations and Trilateral Commission.

No amount of "honesty" about events leading up to and during the Vietnam War can undo the damage that was done to the countries and the families involved and affected by that war, nor does it forgive his complicity and association with criminal international organizations like the World Bank, Council on Foreign Relations, and Trilateral Commission.

Death does not grant someone a free pass for the actions and decisions they made in life. Respect in death is earned, not automatic. It goes without saying that I am not saddened nor sorry that he is gone.

reply to post by NovusOrdoMundi


How do you advocate punishing the alleged war-pigs from the Vietnam War, tarring and feathering them in the public square or possibly skinning them alive? I think the man was remorseful as much as any man could be given the circumstance of his catastrophic blunders. His punishment is the psychological affects on his mind which I am certain he has had to deal with until his death. Fortunately, in his case; I think he had a conscience unlike some of the prior war-mongers in history ie: Hitler, Mao, and Stalin.

I'm sure the death and destruction caused by his hand in concert with others from the JFK and LBJ years darkened his soul until his death. The only solace the victims of Vietnam can have for themselves is the understanding that McNamara was psychologically disturbed for the remainder of his life. I know I wouldn't want to a stroll with the demons and skeletons that occupied his mind following Vietnam. If you are a religious person I am sure he will be judged in accordance to his actions when he meets his Maker.

Originally posted by NovusOrdoMundi
Death does not grant someone a free pass for the actions and decisions they made in life. Respect in death is earned, not automatic. It goes without saying that I am not saddened nor sorry that he is gone.

Here Here!!

I'm sure there are millions of people in south-east asian that feel the same.

And so do I for that matter.

I don't respect McNamara, I don't respect Snow, I deffinately don't respect MJ. Why should I respect the dead? If I don't will it offend them? lol

Vas

reply to post by muzzleflash


Thanks for taking the time and effort to post all those videos!

Robert McNamara certainly led a long and distinquished life and touched history in many ways.

It's a shame we all don't have the kind of opportunity to get to know such people personally and to learn from them directly, but it's great to learn what they do put out there to share with all of us, and thank you for taking the time once again for taking the time to share that with all of us.

Big star!

Originally posted by Retseh
He had an amazing intellect, but as with many great men it was sometimes misdirected.

While so many millions and born and die with such meaningless lives in between, McNamara lived the life of a truly great man, and has earned his place in history.

From what I know, McNamara was nothing more than a big Alpha Hotel, and he should be known for that. He was around before my time, but I know quite a bit about him due to my family's involvement in Vietnam, and the Pentagon. McNamara was a huge reason for the disaster in Vietnam.

BTW, I really do not like speaking ill of the deceased, but I do feel that he should not be glorified for what he did, or rather did not do.

reply to post by dooper


We usually don't agree on much, but we do on this one!

I'm not losing any sleep, that's for sure.

This guy was a complete FRAUD from the getco.

Weighing out the good and the bad (of something or someone) is a tool or instrument I apply in my life, and let me tell you, the bad definitely outweighs the good in this nitwit.

Ohh well.

R.I. misery.

Originally posted by eniac
reply to post by muzzleflash

 

Some will see McNamara as a war criminal, others as a great American. For most of us, he's somewhere in between.

Either way, The Fog of War is a fantastic documentary about this remarkable man.

I encourage everyone who hasn't seen it to watch it. Muzzleflash's got the links above Or you can search for it on Google Video, where the whole version can be seen in one go.


[edit on 6-7-2009 by eniac]

He could also be "A great American War Criminal", who says it cannot goes together...

Originally posted by Jakes51
His punishment is the psychological affects on his mind which I am certain he has had to deal with until his death.

Well in that case lets shut down all of the prisons across the world and allow people to steal, rape, and murder. They'll have to deal with it until their death, so whats the point in punishing them, right?

It's amazing how we degrade serial killers like Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer for murdering dozens of people, but we excuse Robert McNamara's 6 million murders just because he died.

One of the BEST books ever written and absolute essential reading for any person on this site is Raulston Saul "Voltaires Bastards" - if you haven't read it - then you have a giant hole in your life.

The entire book, written in 1982 - well over a decade before Chomsky or the Fog of war - is based on McNamara - he is an utter bastard. Chomskys comments regarding him being a technocrat come directly from Sauls work.

The work he did in Vietnam was pure evil - calculated genocide which can only be compared tot he wholesale slaughter in Germany.

Lets not forget this man was secretary of defence and intimately involved in the secret war - the bombing of Cambodia and Laos - there is a dark chapter.

His role in japan - as the technocrat to introduce a high altitude fire bombing of the country killing innocent women and children on a whole sale scale never since seen - ony out done by the final act of barbarity and nuking people on their way to school - dark as night.

Anyone who has praise for this man is completely lost - profoundly misguided and immoral in every possible sense - he is the epitome of pure evil.

I watched the video again this afternoon. He kept bringing up how "close" they were to all out Nuclear War with Russia. He kept using that as the big elephant in the room that justified his actions.

At one point, he mentions that he got caught up in this "system" of politicians and bureaucrats making these horrendous war decisions. Yet, when offered the position, he was President of Ford Motor - He could have just as easily turned the job down. He even admits that he was not qualified for his government position in the movie.

The real telling part was at the end when he was asked about whether he felt guilty for what he did. He refused to answer.

Perfect example of "The End Justifies the Means" thinking. When you see the devastation in Tokyo, and the massive numbers of innocent civilians that he was responsible for murdering, it's just atrocious.

There is no getting around the fact that Mr. McNamara's hands where dirty because of the long bloody campaign in Vietnam where millions of civilians and tens-of-thousands US servicemen perished. Many act as if he was the lone culprit in the Vietnam War and that he should be tried as a war criminal? However, while we are at it lets charge Eisenhower, the Kennedy brothers, Nixon, Henry Kissenger, and all the rest of the worms. So we do all that because of Vietnam, and what satisfaction do you we get? Is it going to reverse history and bring all those that perished back? So yes they should have been made to answer for the Vietnam War, but many remained silent.

However, the only one that actually spoke up about it was McNamara in the many books and the "Fog of War," documentary directed by Erroll Morris. If it wasn't bothering him he would have never opened his mouth. So apparently his actions and involvement did bother him and he chose to share his thoughts and regrets about the war with the public, and maybe down the road as a result; we won't take the path of Vietnam again. Yet everyone wants to dispute the man's candor on the subject. Lets just look at it for what it is, a man in self-reflection about the many ills he has caused in service of his government. All we can do is learn from McNamara mistakes as Secretary of Defense and hope we never make them again. We have to stop pouring salt in the wound that is the Vietnam War or this country is never going to heal.

Originally posted by Jakes51
Is it going to reverse history and bring all those that perished back?

You didn't answer my question. So I'll ask it again in a different way: Should we scrap the justice and prison system? Putting people in prison won't reverse what they did, so what's the point?

I remember watching Fog of war, which I agree is one of the top 3 documentaries.

I remember they played an audio extract of LBJ and Mcnamara, where bob stated

'' Sir, I dont think thats possible ''

To LBJ's request about Vietnam.

This summed up Mcnamara for me,

Yes he's a pivitol man in history.
Yes, his decisions sent some to war, sent some to death and ultimately meant the bombing of cities.
But is this no different to Eisenhower? Churchill?

The tone of the war was different, and reasons not justified, but Mcnamara didnt start the wars. The presidents did. Mcnamara was there tool in the military conquest after the fuse had been lit.

What an amazing tale he had to tell.
A pity his brilliance was used by those wanting to do evil.

Originally posted by NovusOrdoMundi

Originally posted by Jakes51
Is it going to reverse history and bring all those that perished back?

You didn't answer my question. So I'll ask it again in a different way: Should we scrap the justice and prison system? Putting people in prison won't reverse what they did, so what's the point?

I'll try to answer your question to the best of my ability. Here goes, should the justice and prison system be scraped? No, of course not, and I never said that it should. However, we can't judge and try one man for the policies of 3 Presidential Administrations.

If that were the case then everyone in the government should have been tried and prosecuted for the Vietnam War. What McNamara was involved in was despicable and heinous but I think he was just a spoke on the wheel. At least McNamara was decent enough to speak about his involvement in the Vietnam War when people like Kissenger, Nixon, and LBJ have remained silent.

[edit on 6-7-2009 by Jakes51]

[edit on 6-7-2009 by Jakes51]

Originally posted by Jakes51
However, we can't judge and try one man for the policies of 3 Presidential Administrations.

I never claimed he should be the only one judged and tried for the Vietnam War. They all should. But speaking out publicly about his involvement does not excuse what was done. If a simple apology was all it took to get off the hook for committing a crime then there'd be no use for a legal and prison system.

No matter his level of involvement, he held a high enough position to make a difference. And even if he didn't, he could have resigned. But obviously to himself, saving his career was more important than the 6 million deaths that would ensue.

Yes, a remarkable and very human man who clearly realized he needed and actually sought redemption. RIP.