Who claimed to have met a historical Jesus ?

reply to post by Kapyong


Yes it is but no page # hold on ill look.Ok page 1 (yet it is not listed as 1) of the new testament in the um... hold.....KJ i think its old and dont say anything but red letter version.

Now if your saying no one met him just because they didint give him a shout out like.

Hi im Matt i met Jesus he s cool about 5'11"-6' i know he has not had a bath in days but he smells good. And this is my story.

Then i cant help you lol but what ever let us not forget all the books that never made it to the bible maybe your answers are there.

Originally posted by Kapyong
Gday,

Originally posted by skajkingdom
There is not one single historical note written by anyone who claims to have met my father. Therefore he did not exist.
This is the logic behind these threads.

Come on !
:-)
It strikes me that you're a reasonably smart grown-up, regardless of faith.
That silliness is beneath you.


Kap

Hey, I said you ARE right, as in the lack of historical proof about Jesus.
But this is the case with many other personalities of ancient times (Alexander, Genghis Khan, ...).

Later some people wrote about them. Now, how much this can be trusted is a whole different story.

it would'nt matter if you were there then HISTORICALLY or if He was here now TODAY and saw Him with your own eyes or heard with your own ears-

and there you go again twisting Paul's DIRECT revelation WAS a voice out of thin air/heaven AUDIBLY when He first believed that said "I am Jesus" you know that same thing you claim was a mental,lie,astral,etc.etc.-

If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin.-1John15.22

for I am going to do something in your days
that you would never believe,
even if someone TOLD you.'"-Acts13.41

And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead -Rom8.11

"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. 31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.-Matt12

Gday,

Originally posted by skajkingdom
I am not saying that OP is not right. There indeed IS NO historical document by any eyewitness of Jesus.

We agree.
:-)

Originally posted by skajkingdom
But this does not mean he did not exist.
Peace be with you.

Indeed.
It's just one plank of an argument that argues against his historical existence.

We also see that the early Christians specifically saw Jesus as a higher being, revealed in the scriptures, FROM the revelation and scriptures, not history.

We see that the 'historical Jesus' stories arrived much later - WITH the Gospels.

We also see the Jesus stories have been crafted from OT episodes and themes. Knowledge of HJ came from scriptures - not from historical traditions.

We also see echoes of Homer and Greek myths in the Gospels.

There are many factors that go to a Mythical Jesus.
The total LACK of ANY Christian eye-witness is but ONE of them.

Of course -
We DO have many eye-witness accounts of many ancient people - well known and otherwise - we know of many hundreds, maybe THOUSANDS of people from the 1st century writers.

And we DO have DOZENS of writings from early Christians - many of them CLAIMED and BELIEVED to have been by people who knew Jesus.

Yet among all those books, allegedly by people who KNEW Jesus, who followed Jesus, or were actually RELATED to Jesus - we do NOT have even ONE authentic claim to have personally met him !

But we DO have several FORGED claims.
Such as books by James and Jude which are OBVIOUSLY NOT by any brothers of Jesus. And 2 Peter.

It all argues Jesus was originally a myth - a higher being, a Jinn, a phantom, a something ... just not a historical, physical person.


Kap

Gday,

Originally posted by GunzCoty
Yes it is but no page # hold on ill look.Ok page 1 (yet it is not listed as 1) of the new testament in the um... hold.....KJ i think its old and dont say anything but red letter version.
Now if your saying no one met him just because they didint give him a shout out like.
Hi im Matt i met Jesus he s cool about 5'11"-6' i know he has not had a bath in days but he smells good. And this is my story.

We have DOZENS of writings from early Christians.
Many from allegedly those who knew, followed, or were RELATED to him.

But NONE of them has a genuine claim to have met their FOUNDER.
Yet we DO have FORGED claims.

Argues to a mythical being.

Originally posted by GunzCoty
Then i cant help you lol but what ever let us not forget all the books that never made it to the bible maybe your answers are there.

The apocrypha contain all sorts of nonsense.
Even LESS believable than the Bible - that's whay they were rejected even by faithful believers.
Such as the Gospel of Peter no less - which has Jesus followed out of the tomb by a huge fiery spinning cross!
Is that confirmation of a historical Jesus do you think?

None of the apocrypha contains a genuine claim to have met a historical Jesus.


Kap


[edit on 13-7-2010 by Kapyong]

[edit on 13-7-2010 by Kapyong]

Originally posted by Kapyong
You appear to be admitting I am right.
Thanks.
There is NOT ONE 1st hand claim to have personally met Jesus (except forged 2P.)
I win.
Kap

Your thinking of my appearing is not correct.
Forget the forged stuff because there's scholars who
believe it isn't forged. That means Peter wrote about and seen Jesus.
I won't be narcissist to say "I win".
What is more important is that we are sinners who sin and we need the Savior Jesus Christ to forgive us of our sins.

I agree with you. There are no incidences written down by people who met or saw Jesus. And as far as I can tell, kaypong is not saying anything other than that, unless I missed it. There are two references to Jesus in the writings of Josephus (en.wikipedia.org...), which is also after the fact since Josephus wrote his works after the first rebellion long after Jesus was gone.

So obviously it's in the folklore. It's in the oral tradition. I'm not sure it matters that we don't have an authentic written account of someone who actually met Jesus. So what? It's mildly interesting, but it does not add or detract much from the story or the arguments involved. Honi the Circle Maker was another 'miracle worker' about the same time as Jesus. He was a pretty good candidate for a Messiah. He got stoned to death, or so tradition says. It's kind of the luck of the draw as to which religion "wins." If it weren't for Emperor Constantine we wouldn't be having this discussion. If you want to blame or thank anybody, he was responsible.

reply to post by skajkingdom


as to your other comment you just may have "fixed" yourself for good judging by that jinn bologne, wonder who did the beheadings then? what is that signature? do you look up to murderers?

whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death-Prov8.36

Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.-1John3.5

Last of all, he sent his son to them. 'They will respect my son,' he said.
38"But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, 'This is the heir. Come, let's kill him and take his inheritance.'-Matt21

At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now.-Gal4.29

"But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, 'We don't want this man to be our king.' 15"He was made king, however, and returned home.-Luke19


[edit on by No King but Jesus]

Originally posted by Kapyong
You think ?
You THINK ?!
13 pages in,
after WEEKS of repetition,
after numerous times of reminding you the TOPIC
after I told you DOZENS of times thats what I wanted !
NOW, you finally THINK
I want someone who cited they personally met Him?
You FINALLY figured it out?
You're a real fast thinker there tex :-)
Kap

What I was saying is that someone citing Him who personally met Him isn't a litmus test or requirement for His existence. You can look to other things than that to get proof.
There's other sources that Jesus is real.
Also, can I ask why you take one of my replies and make many post out of them? That gets confusing for me. I think that's why you had to tell me dozens of times.








[edit on 7/13/2010 by texastig]

reply to post by OmegaPointso than your question is ????Who is Paul and who wrote any history on him....

reply to post by texastig


exactamundo,

Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses-Heb12.1

he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in Spirit.-1Cor6.17

ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach-Titus1.11

Originally posted by SunIsSon
Its quite funny, to be quite honest, the humor within this thread.

It is as if Kapyong is debating against young children here, in all seriousness.

The posts here in defense of a historical jesus, consists of no greater substance than one would argue in defense of establishing the reality of a historical Easter Bunny (or any fictional character). NOTHING of greater substance coming from the pro-jesus camp, NOTHING.

We have Kapyong answering all questions in absolute stellar fashion. On the other side of the table is total lack of substance with obvious desperation!!

Kapyong excellent job! Clearly you outclass those who are debating you. I do not understand why they refuse to admit defeat here. It is clear that they have been defeated. Crystal clear.

There's other proofs of Jesus being real. Kapyong's OP isn't a litmus test that Jesus isn't real. Talk about children? Did you see where Kapyong said, "I win". Will you call him a child also so it's fair?

Originally posted by skajkingdom
There is not one single historical note written by anyone who claims to have met my father. Therefore he did not exist.

This is the logic behind these threads.

I am not saying that OP is not right. There indeed IS NO historical document by any eyewitness of Jesus. But this does not mean he did not exist.


Peace be with you.

Excellent post!!! I've been trying to say that all along. But I believe 2Peter is true. Just because scholars are divided over 2Peter doesn't mean it's not true.
I would give the benefit of the doubt to 2Peter.

OP seems to think he won something. He hasn't won a darned thing. Zip. Nada. It doesn't matter. The religion exists. The gospels exist. The tradition is there. I'm reminded of the old Carl Sagan quote: "The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." That's where the whole argument falls down like your pants around your ankles. You don't have an argument, but like the Emperor with no clothes, you seem incapable of realizing that.

But the Bible quoters. Puhleassse!! Do you think ANYBODY is going to look these quotes up? Look, guys. Nobody cares. Only you care. Surely you understand that. So if that's what floats your boat, keep the faith. The OP is correct in his initial statement. It's just that it doesn't matter even a little bit. It's irrelevant to what you believe. It is not an argument against Christianity.

reply to post by schuyler


glad to see the common sense and acknowledment of the truth and really a shame having to use so many -but it is the only source outside of real and ordinary, present or past witnesses statements against these kinds of arguments or attacks so as to qualify or discount the message or attack and feel others may benefit that are just watching, at least I think and hope so

the Sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God-Eph6.17

Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.-John4.23

For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."-Rev19.10

ps- not to mention I hate writing/typing myself always have


[edit on by No King but Jesus]

reply to post by Kapyong

Um im a little confused you said "We have DOZENS of writings from early Christians.
"Many from allegedly those who knew, followed, or were RELATED to him."

"allegedly" or not is this not what you are looking 4?lol And ok lets say that you can't find what "you" are looking 4 in the Bible then ok its not there or whatever.
I have to ask what is your point if in fact in all the ancient holy text (and there are many) that not 1 person gives a shout out to Jesus? What are you saying is what im asking?

Here's a great verse that Paul knew Jesus.
2Cor 5:16
"Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more."

reply to post by texastig


great one and add's further scriptural proof to my testimony also-

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.-2Cor3.17

it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.-Rom9.8(see Gal4)

The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king.-Rev17.11

The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.-John6.63

Gday,

Originally posted by skajkingdom
But this is the case with many other personalities of ancient times (Alexander, Genghis Khan, ...).

In fact there is a great deal of evidence for Genghis Khan :

We DO have an eye-witness account of Genghis Khan sacking Peking :

books.google.com.au... 7g&hl=en&ei=36h7SpO-JYfq6APmwOUs&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3#v=onepage&q=&f=false

No eye-witness accounts of Jesus.

And,
we also have a detailed eye-witness account of his son Kublai Khan:
www.eyewitnesstohistory.com...

No eye-witness accounts of ANY of Jesus's family.


And,
we have PICTURES of Genghis Khan.

No pictures of Jesus.
No-one has ANY idea what he looked like.
Apart from descriptions found in the scriptures.


And,
we have personal descriptions of Genghis Khan.

No descriptions of Jesus.


Genghis Kahn was a warrior who destroyed and raped and pillaged - we have vast amounts of direct evidence of that :

* archeological evidence of his battles

* genetic evidence of his family line

Gengis Khan left behind exactly what we would expect - including eye-witness accounts and hard evidence.

Jesus left nothing like that.

Yet Jesus was allegedly a TEACHER, a preacher, a man of wise words and powerful acts, who attracted many followers, who confounded the wise-men of the day, who taught great new ideas.

A teacher - and no-one recorded hearing him personally.

A preacher - yet Christians couldn't remember his Lord's Prayer correctly (there are many versions including two different ones in the Gospels.)

A man of wise words - yet NONE of the literate communities surrounding him (Roman, Jewish, various pagans) noticed his wisdom.

A leader of many people - yet not one follower is on record.


Kap

Originally posted by Kapyong

Jesus left nothing like that.

Yet Jesus was allegedly a TEACHER, a preacher, a man of wise words and powerful acts, who attracted many followers, who confounded the wise-men of the day, who taught great new ideas.

A teacher - and no-one recorded hearing him personally.

A preacher - yet Christians couldn't remember his Lord's Prayer correctly (there are many versions including two different ones in the Gospels.)

A man of wise words - yet NONE of the literate communities surrounding him (Roman, Jewish, various pagans) noticed his wisdom.

A leader of many people - yet not one follower is on record.


Kap

Eh??

He left a church, oral traditions, and the apostolic fathers. The first two still exist.