Iraqi torture: What's wrong with our military?

Eh, it's not the military at large that's the problem. You gather up over a hundred thousand people, you're gonna get a few bad eggs. Stick a rifle in their hand and give them authority over a bunch of people they were ordered to shoot, and bad stuff is going to happen. You can't hold the entire organization accountable for the actions of a comparative handful of its members.

Perception is reality my friend.

Because of what happened in that prison, the world and the arabs now have justification for their arguments because we aren't righteous.

Originally posted by DerekJR321
Let me clarify my position...

I don't condone what our troops did, I just don't understand the outright RAGE against it.

Quite simply they are our troops. They represent us. They have done America a great disservice. That's why people are pissed about this. Especially those in the military who are being tarred with the same brush.

#1 I highly doub there were WMD in Iraq. Certainly nothing that would threaten the national security of the US. Nothing near the threat that N. Korea represents.

#2 Everyone is saying "OMG, they are really going to hate the US now". Umm hi? They already do hate us. Their children are raised to hate us. They are taught that killing us is an act praised by their god and they will be rewarded for doing so. I don't think that some homo hijinx of a bunch of dumb ass army troops will change the arab nations feelings twoards the US.

#3 The troops involved should be punished yes. If not for the shear stupidity of the act, at least for the fact that they are stupid to not realize the backlash this would cause in the US alone. I mean "hey lets be dumb and break the geneva convention... and oh yeah! LETS PHOTOGRAPH IT!!"

#4 The reason we are still there is not for WMD, not for terrorists, but the fact that our good ole DUBYA didn't have a damn plan for the day after he was playing his little "im a navy pilot" stunt and declared the war over. Ok DUBYA... now what?


Derek

Navy pilot? Try Army National Guard. His father was a Naval Aviator in WWII. I think you have the two confused.

Yes, he was an Army pilot, but not Navy.

Originally posted by .E3.
Navy pilot? Try Army National Guard.

protecting the Texas Plains from the evil Viet Cong. You go Bush.

Someone has to do it

I know he was national guard.. im refering to when he flew onto the carrier to declare the war over. Just a stupid stunt.... and why declare a war "over" when he knew damn well it was no where near over. He could have at least said "major offensive operations have ceased for now".

I need a cigarette.....

Ok, makes sense meh bad.

First off, we shall never win the hearts and minds of the Arabs. Totally different morality from us, totally different mindset. Try as you might, they are totally different.

Second, id have to agree with Derek. See above. Arabs, mind you, engage in sexual torture and humiliation constantly. Thier outrage is only that foreigners do this. They simply will not care, they will use any excuse. How can you claim high moral ground with people who cheerfully clap and dance and party over dismembered violated bodies of our people? Thier morality is totally different.

Id have to agree with Derek, humiliating them was a far cry from what they have done to us. Not that it was right, but this should show you how morale has dipped over there because of this war.

We should pull out and let the idiots go back to killing one another, like they are so very good at.

First off, we shall never win the hearts and minds of the Arabs. Totally different morality from us, totally different mindset. Try as you might, they are totally different.

Second, id have to agree with Derek. See above. Arabs, mind you, engage in sexual torture and humiliation constantly. Thier outrage is only that foreigners do this. They simply will not care, they will use any excuse. How can you claim high moral ground with people who cheerfully clap and dance and party over dismembered violated bodies of our people? Thier morality is totally different.

Id have to agree with Derek, humiliating them was a far cry from what they have done to us. Not that it was right, but this should show you how morale has dipped over there because of this war.

We should pull out and let the idiots go back to killing one another, like they are so very good at.

Originally posted by .E3.
Yes, he was an Army pilot, but not Navy.

No, it was the ANG. They are more closely associated with the AF.

You are correct sir, I stand corrected.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
First off, we shall never win the hearts and minds of the Arabs. Totally different morality from us, totally different mindset. Try as you might, they are totally different.

Second, id have to agree with Derek. See above. Arabs, mind you, engage in sexual torture and humiliation constantly. Thier outrage is only that foreigners do this. They simply will not care, they will use any excuse. How can you claim high moral ground with people who cheerfully clap and dance and party over dismembered violated bodies of our people? Thier morality is totally different.

Id have to agree with Derek, humiliating them was a far cry from what they have done to us. Not that it was right, but this should show you how morale has dipped over there because of this war.

We should pull out and let the idiots go back to killing one another, like they are so very good at.

Sorry, you're wrong. We were very good friends with the Arab nations in the 50s and 60s and oil was aplenty. I wish we could go back to that.

Originally posted by Colonel
Sorry, you're wrong. We were very good friends with the Arab nations in the 50s and 60s and oil was aplenty. I wish we could go back to that.

I don't know if I would go so far as to call them friends back then. They wanted to get their hands on our equipment and pick our brains. Yet they refused to ally themselves with us in any way. Back then they were all about improving themselves and taking our money.

What I find truly repulsive about the platoon that had violated Geneva conventions is the fact that they, like all
other members of the armed forces are taught Geneva
convention guidelines in boot camp. To use the excuse that they were not trained is completely wrong. If that is their only defense in the court martial, then they are as good as locked up. This seems to be out of immuturity
and not from rage, had it been rage the torture, though
just as terrible, would have been quite different. I would agree that this only adds fuel to the fire for
Arabian relations, but it is reasonable to wonder how
other non-arab countries may feel about this if another
war somewhere else were to break out. The fear of being captive will only heighten. Military or Civilian.

Originally posted by Colonel
Sorry, you're wrong. We were very good friends with the Arab nations in the 50s and 60s and oil was aplenty. I wish we could go back to that.

Sorry you're wrong.
Gonna have to jump in and correct this one.....

Yes we were very good friends because the Arab nations were just comming off of European subjugation and were open to exploitation. We were very good friends because we were just ransacking the countries of their natural resources. We were very good friends because Arab nationalism hadnt taken place. We were very good friends because we rigged elections and propped up people like the Shah of Iran. We were very good friends because the literacy rate was near rock bottom. We were very good friends cause we were an alternative to the Nazis

In no way did we connect with Arabs on an ideological or moral way. Skadi is totally right. Your wrong when you say we were good friends with Arabs, we were in fact very good friends with Arab economic resources. In the 50s and 60s America was no where near as tolerant as it currently is, and Islam was considered another evil religion. I'm sorry Colonel but we can never go back to subjugating a people for oil.

[Edited on 5-5-2004 by Agent47]

Originally posted by Agent47
In the 50s and 60s America was no where near as tolerant as it currently is, and Islam was considered another evil religion. I'm sorry Colonel but we can never go back to subjugating a people for oil.

[Edited on 5-5-2004 by Agent47]

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I'm sorry but, YOU'RE WRONG!

We built their oil wells and paid them handsomely for their oil. It was a win-win relationship and it continued like that for some time...until Israel set in.

End of story.

Originally posted by Colonel

I'm sorry but, YOU'RE WRONG!

We built their oil wells and paid them handsomely for their oil. It was a win-win relationship and it continued like that for some time...until Israel set in.

Weres the proof of that? How can you just right off such things as the Shah's rise to power Iran, the huge BP holdings throughout Saudi Arabia, and the way America let various countries slip into armed civil war.

You the crusader for justice, are sitting here and telling me that what we did to the arabs in the 50s and 60s was wrong?

Win win relationship? What were the arabs winning? Money, certainly not because it took Opec for the vast economic gains that took place in the 70s and 80s after Arab nationalism had set in.

I agree that Israel destabilized the Mid East but I think its a fallacy to say that we ever won the hearts and minds of Arabs. You yourself pointed this out by your rebutall. All you offered up is that we payed them for their services, and what did that buy us? Certainly nothing in light of Mid East v American relations in the last 30 years.