Why should I present proof when you know I'm right and concede my point? ANd it was a win-win relationship and Israel did destabalize the region to gain favor with the uS as it has today.

Originally posted by Agent47
I agree that Israel destabilized the Mid East but I think its a fallacy to say that we ever won the hearts and minds of Arabs. You yourself pointed this out by your rebutall. All you offered up is that we payed them for their services, and what did that buy us? Certainly nothing in light of Mid East v American relations in the last 30 years.

what happens if the pictures are actually made fake from fake army clothes and fake iraqi and other fakening things. do we know? why should we care if we cant make a difference anyways. just a bunch of lame citizens anyhowsers. please forgive my improper english.

Originally posted by Colonel
Why should I present proof when you know I'm right and concede my point?

Well for starters maybe youd deny ignorance for once.............

You proved my point in saying that we won hearts and minds through money when that certainly did not occur. Show me how we won any sort of ideological or moral victory with dollars?

In the first place the tortures are not all recent. Check with Amnesty International. The dragging and burning of those Americans were a reaction of people to previous tortures. In the second place, the Bush Crime Family invaded Iraq to avenge a million dollar deal with Saddam that went bad. There were no high minded intentions to liberate the Iraqis from a dictator. Prince Saud is just as bad, but he remains on good terms with the Bush Crime Family. As for the troops that did this, they had to memorize the Geneva Codes as a requirement to complete their basic training just as I had to once. The word is "No Excuse Sir"

...the average age is still around 19 for our troops. 19 year olds seeing freinds dying for those who should (?) be grateful can be unnerving and lead to faults in discipline thus, lapses in integrity- in other words, the NG f-uped. Some heads will roll quietly and the kissing of rears by Bush and others will commence with alacrity.

If anyone here has ever worked in a prison or otherwise correction facility you will know that abuses occur- none are to be tolerated, yet many are still.
I just hope John K. makes the mistake of dumping on the other 135, 000 troops in Iraq about this.

Those boys know right from wrong, or at least should be trained up to that point. You know what's wrong with todays youth: NO DISCIPLINE!!
I say the USA has discredited itself by sending men in there who are unable to behave. Some of them are downright beasts. I would like to hear US citizens speak out now that they are PROUD of all the armed forces. Screw that! There are a lot of rotten apples in the basket. War is not for nice people, I'll grant everyone opposing me that, however, how can a country that claims to be a leader of the free world send in such beasts. I say such a country is not even fit to judge such people. SEND THOSE US SOLDIERS TO A UN TRIBUNAL!!

(After edit) My anger is mostly caused by the fact that I heard that they are getting a reprimand.. A REPRIMAND??!!! YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!! PUT THEM AWAY!!

[Edited on 7-5-2004 by Devils Advocate]

Originally posted by Colonel
Ok, by now, everyone has seen the Iraqi torture pics. My question is why is it so sexual? Naked bodies stacked in a pyramid. Iraqi prisoners forced to maturbate while people watch and film. Rape with a broom stick. What the hell? WHat is wrong with our servicemen? They had a plethora of torture methods that could have been used by they resort to sexual torture? And this is being distributed throughout the world. What's the problem with our people?

And don't tell me it was an isolated incident. This was systemic.


[Edited on 5-5-2004 by Colonel]

blame all for the actions of a few? thats calling all germans nazis

Originally posted by Colonel
Why should I present proof when you know I'm right and concede my point?

can we say ego problem?

Originally posted by KrazyIvan
can we say ego problem?

Yes and I would also like to add wanker with a deep and inherent love ignoring historical fact. You just love it when someone tries to legitamize subjugation of the Middle East.

[Edited on 7-5-2004 by Agent47]

I fail to see why this issue has inflated and inflamed to this point.

Consider the following points.

1. Concerning the hating of the United States, we were hated long before this incident occured and for far less. How far less you ask? Well, the fact you breath the air between the pacific and atlantic oceans is enough for militant islamist to hate you.

2. These acts were commited with full knowlege of superiors. Why, physiological warfare. Is it right or fair, sure is, do not forget those men in the pictures would, if given the chance, kill you, your friends, and you family.

3. The pictures. What horror! Those pics are tame compared to the porn most of the world views everyday on the internet. I would even venture to say some of those two-faced liberals engage in just that kind of behavior most Friday nights. The only difference is those liberals are not sucessfull enough to have there pics posted on the internet.

4. Finally, who took those pics anyway? That guy or girl should be taken behind the hummer and beaten.

Stop the crying

Originally posted by Colonel

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
First off, we shall never win the hearts and minds of the Arabs. Totally different morality from us, totally different mindset. Try as you might, they are totally different.

Second, id have to agree with Derek. See above. Arabs, mind you, engage in sexual torture and humiliation constantly. Thier outrage is only that foreigners do this. They simply will not care, they will use any excuse. How can you claim high moral ground with people who cheerfully clap and dance and party over dismembered violated bodies of our people? Thier morality is totally different.

Id have to agree with Derek, humiliating them was a far cry from what they have done to us. Not that it was right, but this should show you how morale has dipped over there because of this war.

We should pull out and let the idiots go back to killing one another, like they are so very good at.

Sorry, you're wrong. We were very good friends with the Arab nations in the 50s and 60s and oil was aplenty. I wish we could go back to that.

We(humans) lack Knowledge §!"#¤ some are teached wrong things from the birth in Iraq and aswell as other countries ( Children are the moste valuable thing ) They are ready to recive knowledge... It always Begins from the START. The Arabs The Americans Blah blah blah what is wrong with everyone? our brains are equal It's the way whe program them that counts.

Man is this being blown out of proportion! Out of 130,000 soldiers there are a handfull of cases of HUMILIATION!!!! God - people are acting like they were tortured to death. Do I think that this was a good thing? Of course not. But lets keep in mind that the worst that happened here is someone was humiliated... It's not like they were starved while being electrocuted and having bamboo shoved under their finger nails.

The fact that I see people calling for Rumsfelds job because of this - what total BS!!! Ted Kennedy needs to get a brain - there is no way that this is some conspiracy going up through the highranks of generals and the white house! How is some guy in an office half way around the world responsable for some idiots in a obscure prison? Besides they told us about this a while ago!

Concerning the sexual nature of the crimes, I agree - it is troubling to say the least. An opinion offered to me by a female was perhaps the woman in most of those pictures felt anger towards these people because of the sexist nature of their culture/religion.It's not my belief - I just think shes an idiot - but thought I would throw that out for discussion.