Originally posted by Frith

I don't think we've reached the point scientifically and technologically to prove reincarnation. As study into the subject currently stands, the best cases involve a subject claiming to have memories of somebody else with some former people, places, or things that can be verified. For each case the age, reasons for remembering, and clarity of memories varies greatly. Then there is the issue of actually finding historical information on the deceased for memory verification. Since there are so many widely differing variables and so little means of historical verification, we're left with what we have now. Hardly what I would call a repeatable process to build a scientific theory from. In the future with more advanced record keeping and better scientific knowledge on human memory this issue will finally be settled, but not in the haphazard way its treated now.

Profit as a motive is certainly something to keep in mind, but I do not believe in using profit as a motive to debunk all reincarnation stories.

Your points are all well taken. I don't want to take an adversarial debunking stance on this.

The dozens of cases I've read on reincarnation, when carefully analyzed, usually turn up anachronisms, historical impossibilities, and when records are checked, the person returning does not exist. I include many channeling and trance state communications as well as multiple personality disorder cases. There are books and medical records covering these subjects in great detail.

Secondary note is how so many cases invariably claim to be reincarnations of Egyptian pharaohs, aristocrats, and famous personages. Seems slaves, farmers, factory workers are almost never reincarnated even though they account for 98% of the population.

After studying so many cases one sees a definite pattern emerge. Few are motivated to examine these cases, as there's little award or appreciation when it's actually done.

People want to believe the mystical explanation rather than a rational one.
In the process we lose sight of how creative and inventive some of us really are.



Mike








[edit on 16-6-2009 by mmiichael]

if this story is true, i dont think it necessarily means reincarnation
For all we know he could be tapping (partially) into some great universal consciousness or something like that.

Originally posted by ELECTRICkoolaidZOMBIEtest
if this story is true, i dont think it necessarily means reincarnation
For all we know he could be tapping (partially) into some great universal consciousness or something like that.

That is true. There is no way for us to know with certainty the source of the memories. In fact, even if reincarnation is true, there must be a rational explanation for the mechanism involved in the recall of memories which pre-date the conception of the "new host" and formation of the brain.
However, It is notable that in this case, and many others, the child or person has such a strong attachment to one particular individual, with no other similar attachments.

When looking for evidence of reincarnation, I don't think that it should be assumed that all claims have equal value. Certainly you must begin by eliminating cases of multiple personality disorder. I think that channelings and regressions should also be treated with a higher degree of scepticism and analysed separately from those where the memories arise spontaneously, with no attempt of deliberate retrieval.

While I acknowledge there might be some value to memory regression, there is certainly the possibility that the person under regression is subconsciously creating the "information recalled".

All that said, there is a whole lot that science does not know about the operation of consciousness and memory function. It is not "rational" to simply dismiss every claim with the assumption that every case must be a hoax or simply a product of wishfull thinking on the basis that this is "a simpler explanation".

And from my perspective, looking at this from a spiritual perspective and the realm of personal beliefs, not grounded in science, if one assumes the existence of a human "soul" which survives death (and I am not assuming that humans would be unique in pocessing a "soul", then the idea of reincarnation makes much more sense to me than the Christian concept that a soul goes through one incarnation followed by some "final judgement" that is based on whether one has chosen the "correct saviour".

There is little doubt that science is limited in its ability to answer some fundamental questions regarding the "purpose of existence" or if there is any possibility that our consciousness and identity may survive death.

This is a really interesting story, but not trying to # on anyone parade the boy might have a psychological disorder.

Probably multi personality? 50 memories are not enough memories to specifically identify someones life, 50 is a very general view and could match up with millions of peoples lives.

The boy just might have a 2nd personality where he believes he was a pilot in WW2.

I know you guys want to believe in something greater out there, but take logic into account.

Originally posted by Mr_Sushkov
This is a really interesting story, but not trying to # on anyone parade the boy might have a psychological disorder.

Probably multi personality? 50 memories are not enough memories to specifically identify someones life, 50 is a very general view and could match up with millions of peoples lives.

The boy just might have a 2nd personality where he believes he was a pilot in WW2.

I know you guys want to believe in something greater out there, but take logic into account.

Your statement does not appear to be backed up by anything factual and unless you are a qualified psychiatrist or have access to the diagnosis of a psychiatrist who has thoroughly investigated this case, you might be making statements that border on libel.

However, I doubt there are many people who would believe the absurd statements you are making so you are probably safe there.

Originally posted by Mr_Sushkov
the boy might have a psychological disorder.

Probably multi personality? 50 memories are not enough memories to specifically identify someones life, 50 is a very general view and could match up with millions of peoples lives.

The boy just might have a 2nd personality where he believes he was a pilot in WW2.

I know you guys want to believe in something greater out there, but take logic into account.

I have thought along the same lines and said so.

Multiple Personality disorder is not as uncommon as many may think. It is well documented in the medical literature.

And it is amazing how much information even a kid can pick up from movies, books, even overheard conversations.

Typically supposedly reincarnated people are important or heroic figures.
Few truck drivers seem to come back.

We don't know much much prompting or supplemented reading this kid has had, but I'll almost guarantee a lot of material on WWII has been seen by him in the last few months.


Mike

Originally posted by mmiichael
We don't know much much prompting or supplemented reading this kid has had, but I'll almost guarantee a lot of material on WWII has been seen by him in the last few months.

Mike

Hi Mike,

If you are interested in the facts about this case, you might try doing a bit more research before you jump to premature conclusions.

I have been hearing about this case for many years. The memories started about the time the boy was learning to speak when he was two years old. He is now eleven. How much material on World War II would he have been exposed to when he was two? How would he know the name of the aircraft carrier and the pilot who died in combat and how would he be able to name the other members of the unit who survived the war that he met?

With respect to allegations of "multiple personality disorder" - from Wikipedia:

From Wikipedia
The diagnostic criteria in section 300.14 (dissociative disorders) of the DSM-IV require:

The presence of two or more distinct identity or personality states, each with its own relatively enduring pattern of perceiving, relating to, and thinking about the environment and self.
At least two of these identities or personality states recurrently take control of the person's behavior.
Inability to recall important personal information that is too extensive to be explained by ordinary forgetfulness.
The disturbance is not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., blackouts or chaotic behavior during alcohol intoxication) or a general medical condition (e.g., complex partial seizures). In children, the symptoms are not attributable to imaginary playmates or other fantasy play.[4] A patient history, x-rays, blood tests, and other procedures can be used to eliminate the possibility that symptoms are due to traumatic brain injury, medication, sleep deprivation, or intoxicants, all of which can mimic symptoms of DID.[5]

"Past life memories" are not indicative of multiple personalities occupying the same body. It is one identity with one personality that just happens to have memories of someone else.

That's such a touching story. My kids talk about things they "used" to do all the time...maybe I should start taking them more seriously.

Originally posted by Mr_Sushkov
I know you guys want to believe in something greater out there, but take logic into account.

Don't confuse logic with adherence to a current model. Logic defies models when the models are inaccurate. Perhaps it's coincidence? But then what is coincidence? Two events which appear to be related, but are not. Why aren't they related? Because science can't explain their relationship based on current reality models.

Just because they say it ain't so, don't make it true.

Much like other phenomenon, I get rather tired of people saying "I don't know, but I know it isn't what you think," or "I didn't see what you saw, but I know what you didn't see what you think you saw," and claiming that's a logical conclusion. That's not logical, it's exclusionary.

I think interesting point of the entire video was actually when the boy stated reincarnation is possible, implying it isn't 'mandatory'.

That's very interesting but I honestly would hope reincarnation isn't true. I mean it seems pretty cool to be able to have the chance to be young(er) again but honestly, in the direction that the human race is headed I'm not sure I'd want to come back here after I die.

Originally posted by bluestreak53

If you are interested in the facts about this case, you might try doing a bit more research before you jump to premature conclusions.

I have been hearing about this case for many years. The memories started about the time the boy was learning to speak when he was two years old. He is now eleven. How much material on World War II would he have been exposed to when he was two? How would he know the name of the aircraft carrier and the pilot who died in combat and how would he be able to name the other members of the unit who survived the war that he met?

[...]

"Past life memories" are not indicative of multiple personalities occupying the same body. It is one identity with one personality that just happens to have memories of someone else.

Thanks for the feedback. In another career I did a lot of research and investigation in this field. Disappointingly for most, in every case I was aware of, misinformation, disinformation and exaggeration was the basis of the claims.

I try to keep an open mind, but there is a lot of benign appearing deception out there, intentional and self-deluding.

Mike

The fact that a book has been written does not bother me at all.

If something this extrodinary happened in your family, you would probably have those who were money-minded coming to you suggesting it, and arranging it for you. I mean, personally, I would be thinking, "sure, why not?". And why not?

I bet most of the money from the book will go to the boy for college, etc.

His parents just seem like those kind of people.

I've already posted that I love this story.

So, ditto.

Why would somebody desire to come back to this filthy planet as a darn human? Their isn't anything to gain by being human and not one soul here can prove me wrong. I'd rather be a complete new alien life form on a human free planet far away from this hell. Now if this reincarnation does exist, then reality it's self is my enemy. Forcing us to come back to this hell just because we don't obey life like good little slaves.

I feel what your saying.

Reincarnation is a choice we make from what I believe. It is made before birth and after our death, but I agree when I kick the bucket and I am going to choose another place to go, it will not be anything like earth.

There is a lot of goodness here on earth we, as humans, seem to create a world of chaos and drama around us.

Imaging this take everyone else out of the world and now your the only one left, how would your life be then?

Originally posted by Hatred and Envy
Why would somebody desire to come back to this filthy planet as a darn human? Their isn't anything to gain by being human and not one soul here can prove me wrong. I'd rather be a complete new alien life form on a human free planet far away from this hell. Now if this reincarnation does exist, then reality it's self is my enemy. Forcing us to come back to this hell just because we don't obey life like good little slaves.