SETI Pioneer fails to debunk crop circles as ET messages

SETI Pioneer fails to debunk crop circles as ET messages

www.examiner.com

In a recently recorded interview, Dr Frank Drake responded to questions concerning the scientific detection of extraterrestrial intelligence. He stated his view that radio signals are the optimal way in which extraterrestrials would communicate with humanity. He gave NASA communications with satellites and space missions as an example of the appropriateness of radio signals. He said that the Search for Extraterrestrials Intelligence (SETI) should focus on those parts of the electromagnetic spectrum that are the most appropriate for radio signals from extraterrestrials. In answer to the questio

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Related AboveTopSecret.com Discussion Threads:
600ft Jellyfish Crop Circle Found In Oxfordshire Field
First A Jellyfish, Now A Dragonfly... Giant Crop Circles Just Get Weirder



[mod edit: fixed title and source link]

[edit on 7-6-2009 by 12m8keall2c]

This is a stunning read and it introduced torsion fields and their speeds. Being able to see a star, which is billions of miles away, in its exact position is an astonishing feat.

The idea that radio is the way to communicate really does not hold its value anymore.

Here they talk how the crop formations may actually be a part of the torsion transmissions and/or are a form of data recording or other possible means of ensuring somebody else gets the message.

When the telescope was directed not at the visible but at the true position of a star, the detector then registered an incoming signal that was much stronger. The registration of the true positions of different stars could be interpreted only as registration of star radiation that had velocities billions of times greater than the speed of light.

Stars generate enormous torsion fields due to their very high angular momentum. Kosyrev’s observations were experimentally confirmed by numerous other Russian scientists together with a few western colleagues. This made it possible to study stars in their actual astronomical position, rather than its past position from radio waves or visual confirmation by telescope.

Insofar as crop circles are created by some rotational generating principle or torsion field, they may well be, as Colin Andrews suggests, a form a communication by extraterrestrials. Remotely generated torsion fields may also explain some of the paranormal phenomena associated with crop circles that Andrews claims have drawn much official interest. The message to SETI scientists is that they need to understand torsion fields if they hope to communicate with extraterrestrials. Alternatively, they may simply catch a helicopter ride to the next series of crop circles.

[url=http://www.examiner.com/x-2383-Honolulu-Exopolitics-Examiner~y2009m6d6-SETI-Pioneer-debunks-crop-circles-as-ET-communications]www.examiner.com[/u rl]
(visit the link for the full news article)

I am sorry.. How is this debunking? It sounds to me he believes that they are actually not made by humans. He doesn't provide proof one way or another but proffers a theory instead.

Nevertheless, it is an interesting theory that he brings up here. I am no scientist so I have no way of knowing if these torsion fields exist or not.

Are you absolutely kidding me? Not you, OP, but Drake?
Dude - I love his equation, but this is dumb.
Radio waves are extremely primitive when you look at it from a technological perspective.
I'm not saying crop circles are the real deal either (I don't know what to believe with them), but I would go for crop circles ANYDAY over radio signals.

reply to post by Lebowski achiever


Yes the title actually threw me off too as I was reading it all.. it's an incredible rread and does seem to make a lot more sense.

It's nice to have a more 'up to date' idea on it all.

I was wondering whether the compiler of the title made an error ???

I agree that Radio-signals is one of the likely ways for ET's to make contact, but also other types of ways, such as pulses, images or probes, and so on. Unless they don't actually decide to just travel here, which they already have.

But, how was he debunking the Crop-Patterns?
I think he rather sounded as he believed in them as being of possible ET-origin?

I have no official position on whether crop circles are man-made or extraterrestrial-made, but I don't see a 'debunking' here. All I see is a speculative opinion by someone who probably thinks his doctor title makes his opinion fact. How could he possibly know what form of communication "aliens" prefer?

I also have a comment on this portion of the article:

"In response to Drake's comment, Colin Andrews said: "I don't believe there will be a signal of any kind because ET is already here, right under SETI's noses and are interacting and influencing earth events, by means of some crop circles.""

I think more plausibly powerful humans are using these crop circles as a diversion. There are certain subjects that trigger the imagination and cause a diversion. The "unknown" is the primary subject, and extraterrestrials and UFOs are a classic sub-category of this.

In the last week, we have been pummeled with stories of crop circles, the mysterious crash of Flight 447, the news blackout surrounding the trial in North Korea, North Korea's overused and tired threats, and Obama's world tour. Headlines about these stories have flooded TV, Internet, and newspaper media outlets. Are we supposed to believe this is all that is really going on in the world? They are going out of their way to force these stories down our throats. What else is going on that they are hiding?

I think these crop circles are just a convenient story to add to all of the nonsense stories and distractions being circulated by the media in recent weeks. I think they're possibly being used to cover up or distort events that are occurring without our knowledge.

I disagree, as stated before, how could he know how ET's would communicate? Radio signals might be a good chance to communicate, and if they do observe our planet then they would know to possibly communicate with us this way, but they would also know that the people of Earth could never hear their messege because their message through radio would be covered up. Crop circles are the next best thing to communicate with us, or them just landing either on the White House lawn, or in a very crowded city street would definitely get our attention.

FAIL TO DEBUNK

FAIL TO DEBUNK FAIL TO DEBUNK FAIL TO DEBUNK FAIL TO DEBUNK FAIL TO DEBUNK FAIL TO DEBUNK FAIL TO DEBUNK


nice article

how about we meet half way on this.

what if crop circles are made by radio waves?

deal?

heh.


you know.. if i saw a species of intelligent lifeforms evolving culturally on a planet..
then i would be less inclined to use radio waves and blatantly beam down all this information to them.
whats the fun in that?
that's like a spoiler in movie.
or giving away the solution to the greatest puzzle in life..

why not inscribe interesting and temporary images into their landscape.. that make themn THINK and have them actually have to solve them like puzzles.. and somehow experiment with these designs.. in order to learn about many things from a very simple design...

as opposed to blatantly saying
" hey we're here and these are the solutions to all the ridles of life..
oh what's that? you wanted to figure it out on your own so that you could feel proud of yourselves that you actually accomplished something?
woops.. sorry.


i like the concept of "hints" more than blatant spewing of info.


this SETI guy is a payed shill.
or he's too closed minded to be in the position he's in.


-

Here's a theory: if the PTB can project an image in the sky (aka Project Blue Beam) they can burn an image into a field from the self same satellites.

Cue "It must be ETs", cue panic, cue control measures.

Look for the motive, and you find the culprit.

Possibly.

reply to post by pause4thought


But crop circles have been in our culture for hundreds of years.
They are not new to us.

We have not had radio or satellites for that long.

The earliest recorded image resembling a crop circle is depicted in a 17th-century English woodcut called the "Mowing-Devil". The image depicts the devil with a scythe mowing (cutting)[10] a circular design in a field of oats. The pamphlet containing the image states that the farmer, disgusted at the wage his mower was demanding for his work, insisted that he would rather have "the devil himself" perform the task. That night, the crop appeared as if it were on fire, then in the morning a circular pattern had mysteriously appeared.

A more recent historical report of crop circles was republished (from Nature, volume 22, pp. 290–291, 29 July 1880) in the January 2000 issue of the Journal of Meteorology.[11] It describes the 1880 investigations by amateur scientist John Rand Capron:

"The storms about this part of Western Surrey have been lately local and violent, and the effects produced in some instances curious. Visiting a neighbour's farm on Wednesday evening (21st), we found a field of standing wheat considerably knocked about, not as an entirety, but in patches forming, as viewed from a distance, circular spots....I could not trace locally any circumstances accounting for the peculiar forms of the patches in the field, nor indicating whether it was wind or rain, or both combined, which had caused them, beyond the general evidence everywhere of heavy rainfall. They were suggestive to me of some cyclonic wind action,..."[12]

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by Extralien


I am aware of reports from earlier times, but as I understand it it is only relatively recently that very complex forms have appeared. (The first report you cite sounds very much like a light-hearted response to the farmer's comment from his disgruntled mower; not to be dismissive - it just seems a reasonable explanation.)

It does sound to me like something that has its origins in some natural phenomena has been hijacked, first by fraudsters, then possibly by high-tech who-knows-whos.

I know this won't satisfy everyone, but I do think it's a theory worthy of consideration.

reply to post by pause4thought


Thanks for the update on their news title which now reads
"SETI Pioneer fails to debunk crop circles as ET messages"

well, let's take a look from the 1930's onwards then
Maybe that'll help open up issue...and I'm really surprised as to how few have replied to this thread after all the chat on the jellyfish and dragonfly.. Maybe it's because there are no pictures

When they claimed making all the formations around the English county of Hampshire, for example, it was pointed out that half the known formations had actually occured in another county- "Er, no, we didn't do those either," they replied. In the end, not even Doug and Dave knew which ones they had made. And although they claim to have made hoaxes since 1978- at the time the published date of the first design- evidence witheld confirmed crop circles dating back into the 1930s. The public has never heard these retractions, nor been given the opportunity to compare the mess created by D&D with the mathematical symmetry of the real phenomenon.

TEam Satan/the circlemakers was paid to go to conveniently out-of-the-way New Zealand to make an elaborate formation for The Discovery Channel. The deceptive tactics used to trick a viewing public into accepting the hoax theory are dealt with here. (Their link no longer works unfortunately)

The issue is that no man-made crop circle has satisfactorily replicated the features associated with the real phenomenon, and this has baffled scientists and researchers. Crop circles are created by a force seemingly at odds with modern science. Central to the hoax argument is that a physical object is required to flatten the crop to the ground, resulting in the breaking of the plant stems. In genuine formations the stems are not broken but bent (left), normally about an inch off the ground at the plant's first node. The plants appear to be subjected to a short and intense burst of heat which softens the stems to drop just above the ground at 90�, where they reharden into their new and very permanent position without damaging the plants. Plant biologists are baffled by this phenomenon and farmers, who know how the land ticks, are baffled by this. It is the singlemost method of identifying the real phenomenon. Research and laboratory tests suggest that microwave or ultrasound may be the only method capable of producing such an effect.

www.cropcircles.net...

Q: The crop circle phenomenon is presented to the rest of the world by what seems to be just a handful of crop circle "experts." What do the ordinary local people of southern England believe? Those who are not involved in documenting the phenomenon, those who just happen to live there?
A: A lot of people just seem to accept it. I have spoken to some people who claim to have seen crop circles since they were young children in the 1950's and thought nothing of it.
Some of the local people in Wiltshire have their own amazing stories of UFO sightings and strange events, whereas others merely dismiss it as a hoax.
I think more people take notice of the media though and don't like to express opinions that may be outside the 'average' way of thinking. More people dismiss the subject as a hoax since D&D's admission.

www.cropcircleresearch.com...

There is tons of data out there on crop circles now;

CROP CIRCLES: THE FINAL SOLUTION

By Omar Fowler
(First published in 1991 : Abridged version 2005) INTRODUCTION

Omar Fowler has been involved in the investigation of the Crop Circle phenomenon since July 1985. His early research included crop & soil analysis and aerial photography in both colour and infra-red. Details of two reports, instigated by Omar Fowler were published in the book "Circular Evidence" (page 35). In September 1991 Omar Fowler published a short illustrated paper on his research into the Crop Circle phenomenon entitled "The Significance of Bent Stems in Crop Circles". This paper drew comments from a number of prominent researches:

Professor Y .H. Ohtsuki of the Waseda University, Tokyo, Japan:
"The creases and burn marks are very important to our work. " "Electro-magnetic waves ( or microwaves) are produced in nature by changing electro-magnetic fields. "

Michael Chorost of Duke University, North Carolina, USA:
"Our work supports your idea that the plants are exposed to some electro-magnetic force ". "Your work's one of the best things to come out of England this summer" (1991)

Montague Keen (Centre for Crop Circle Studies):
"Your observations & photographs are clearly an important and valuable contribution to the task of solving the mystery ".

Dr. Terence Meaden (TORRO):
"Thank you for sending me a copy of your well-illustrated short paper on the significance of bent stems in crop circles ". "You appear to be undertaking a careful study of this problem and this is very commendable".

www.phenomenonresearch.com...

Fail to debunk, fail to prove. As with so many things there is not an answer just speculation. Net result is that it hasn't actually got the decision as to which, if either, any closer.

Originally posted by pause4thought
Here's a theory: if the PTB can project an image in the sky (aka Project Blue Beam) they can burn an image into a field from the self same satellites.

Cue "It must be ETs", cue panic, cue control measures.

Look for the motive, and you find the culprit.

Possibly.

i also think of that theory alot as well.

it's juts more fun to think they're from a nice docile advanced race i guess..

in adding to your theory..

possibly it's humans using technology they got FROM aliens..

how convoluted is that??

but then again if it turns out that the absolute truth is that they created us, and many other cultures just like us across the universe.. then we have to completely revamp what they're termed as..
and the concept of "alien" is completely flipped upside down.

if they came first.. billions of years before us.. and they invented us (our bodies) .. then uh.. who's the real alien?
is anything really "alien" at that point?

-

[edit on 7-6-2009 by prevenge]

Crop circles are a marvellous example of human ingenuity and dedication to a cause.That is all they are imo and i have never seen anything to make me think otherwise,even the most complex of crop circles.As for torsion fields,may be true...might not be.The fact is that when i hear someone talk about them they are usually kooks who use bad evidence and crappy science to backup their claims.If these kooks would use good evidence and sound science for a change i may view it differently.It's all BS imho,although i would like to be proven wrong.

Originally posted by Solomons
Crop circles are a marvellous example of human ingenuity and dedication to a cause.

what cause might that be?
making designs to try to make people think that they're aliens?

The fact is that when i hear someone talk about them they are usually kooks who use bad evidence and crappy science to backup their claims.If these kooks would use good evidence and sound science for a change i may view it differently.It's all BS imho,although i would like to be proven wrong.

your conclusion is completely ignorant.
so you'd like to be proven wrong?
proven wrong in what sense?
in that it's actually "aliens" making them?
or that it's actually humans using technology completely in human origin?
or that it's actually humans using technology derived from aliens?

in any of those situations, would you even take the moment to look at the even biggerissue, which is that you hastily jump to the conclusions that people that are having conversations about such a topic are "kooks"?
if you place the truth about crop circles above that of your own condescending name calling and judgmental holier-than though attitude, then you've got alot of soul searching to do there dear sir.

imo, that's the more widespread problem here..
people investigating all avenues in search of truth...
or people like you doing what you've done here.
talking like an 1800's victorian snob.

-

reply to post by Extralien


What about other possible means of communications?
It seems they are putting all their eggs in one basket.

• Telepathic communications
  
• Cellular level communications
  
• Light wave communications
  
• or other stuff I can't even begin to phantom
  

Why do scientists think radio waves are the optimal form of communications?
It is because that is where 'our' own technology is at in this point of our development.

A race that is millions, billions of years or older may have perhaps found that radio communications are primitive, noisy, unhealthy and less reliable than other methods at their disposal.