russian helicopters over michigan?

Originally posted by DeltaNine
The US own a couple of Hinds they use for training for Red Force.

Thats probably what you saw.

what is red force? and why would they use Hinds?

I am not absolutely about RED FORCE, but I think it is (was) the US unit used to simulate the enemy (USSR) - they used enemy technology(Hinds, Migs, but also american F5 etc.) and tactics.

About Hind:
It is a russian atack/cargo helicopter. It is big, fast and can carry lot of ammo, but it is vulnerable, not especially suited for fighting when hoovering, and has obsolete avionics.

globalsecurity:
Mil Mi-24 is a twin-engined assault helicopter intended for close support of ground forces, destruction of armored targets and transportation of persons or cargo. Its design is a classic one with a five-bladed main rotor and three-bladed tail rotor. The Mi-24, the first helicopter to enter service with the Russian Air Force as an assault transport and gunship, was developed on the basis of the Mi-8's propulsion system. Additional missions include direct air support, antitank, armed escort, and air to air combat. The helicopter was used extensively in the Afghanistan War, becoming the "signature" weapon of the conflict. The Mi-24 is a counterpart to the American AH-64 Apache, but unlike this and other Western assault helicopters it is also capable of transporting up to eight troops. The Russians have deployed significant numbers of HINDs in Europe and have exported the HIND to many third world countries.

A characteristic feature of the Mi-24 is a load cabin connected with the flight-deck, which is 2.83 m long, 1.46 m wide and 1.2 m high. It is capable of accommodating up to armed 8 troops; they can fire from their small arms fixed in mountings on side windows which can be opened. The cabin is accessible by a vertically opening clamshell door on each side of the fuselage. The helicopter has a wing with a span of 6.536 m, which can relieve the tail rotor by up to 30 per cent in higher speeds. It is equipped with a hydraulically retractable tricycle type landing gear with a twin-wheel nose unit. It is powered by TV3-117 engines (2 x 1638 kW).

The development of the helicopter commenced in mid-60ies based on the dynamics, power units and other components of the Mi-8. The first prototype, still with TV2-117 engines, flew in September 1969. Mi-24A (Hind-A) is the first version, in serial production since 1972.

The five-blade main rotor is mounted on top of fuselage midsection, while short, stubby, weapon-carrying wings are mounted at the fuselsage midsection. Two turboshaft engines are mounted above body midsection with two round air intakes located just above the cockpit and exhaust ports on the sides of engines. The Hind A fuselage consists of a large, oval-shaped body with a glassed-in cockpit, tapering at the rear to the tail boom. The swept-back tapered tail fin features a rotor on the right on some models, with tapered flats on a boom just forward of the fin.

The Hind D fuselage features nose modification with tandem bubble canopies, and a chin-mounted turret. Mi24D (Hind-D) is significantly re-designed version of the Mi-24A. It entered service in 1976. A re-modelled two-seated cockpit has a tandem seating with the gunner/pilot sitting in front, the pilot/commander in the rear seat which is raised. The cockpit has characteristic bulging canopies. An undernose turret contains a four-barrel 12.7 mm 9A624 machine gun with up to 1470 rounds. Optional weaponry is mounted on four underwing pylons. It can consist of 4 UB-32 pods (with 32 57 mm S-5 rockets each), 4 x 100 or 250 kg bombs, or 2 x 500 kg bombs, or the same number of napalm dispensers. An air-to-surface launching system for four 122 mm rockets can also be used. On wingtips there are tube-launchers for two pairs of 9M17P anti-tank missiles (Falanga system).

External stores are mounted on underwing external stores points. Each wing has three hardpoints for a total of six stations. A representative mix when targeting armor formations would be eight AT-6 ATGMs, 750x 30-mm rounds, and two 57-mm rocket pods. The aircraft can store an additional ammunition basic load in the cargo compartment in lieu of carrying troops. Armored cockpits and titanium rotor head able to withstand 20-mm cannon hits. Every aircraft has an overpressurization system for operation in a NBC environment.

The HIND�s wings provide 22% to 28% of its lift in forward flight. In a steep banking turn at slower airspeeds, the low wing can lose lift while it is maintained on the upper wing, resulting in an excessive roll. This is countered by increasing forward airspeed to increase lift on the lower wing. Because of this characteristic, and the aircraft�s size and weight, it is not easily maneuverable. Therefore they usually attack in pairs or multiple pairs, and from various directions.

Mi-24DU is a training version of Mi-24D without the undernose gun turret.

Mi-24V (Hind-E) is another improved version, a development of Mi-24D. The major change consists in the upgraded and more efficient SHTURM - V missile system with 9M114 (AT-6 Spiral) radio-guided anti-tank missiles launched from two pairs of cylindrical pods mounted on wingtips. Also added were B-8V rocket pods for 20 80 mm S-8 rockets, UPK-23-250 pods with two-barrel Gsh-23L and 250 rounds, GUV9A universal pods which can carry a 30 mm 9-A-800 automatic grenade launcher, or one 12.7 mm 9-A-624 four-barrel machine gun and two four-barrel 7.62 mm 9-A-622 machine guns. It was equipped with TV3-117V engines with improved height characteristics and optional exhaust mixer boxes to cool exhaust gasses, and auxiliary fuel tanks with a capacity of 450 litres.

VARIANTS
Nearly all of the older HIND A, B and C variants have been upgraded or modified to the HIND D or E standard.

Mi-24D/HIND D: Direct air support.
Mi-24V/HIND E: Direct air support. Most proliferated version.
Mi-24P/HIND F: Direct air support. The fixed twin gun cut the turret profile, and empty weight to 8,200 kg, while boosting maximum gross weight to 12,000 kg.
Mi-24R/HIND G-1: NBC sampling. It has mechanisms to obtain soil and air samples, filter air, and place marker flares.
Mi-24K/HIND G-2: Photo-recon, and artillery spotting. Has a camera in cabin, gun, rocket pods, but no targeting system.
Mi-25: Export version of the HIND D.
Mi-35: Export version of the HIND E. The Mi-35M has a twin barrel 23-mm gun.
Mi-35P: Export version of the HIND F.

Specfications:

Builder MIL
Date of Introduction 1976 (HIND D)
Role Assault, gunship, antitank
Similar Aircraft AH-1 Cobra (all models), UH-60 Black Hawk, AH-64 Apache, Mangusta A129
Blades Main rotor: 5
Tail rotor: 3
Rotor diameter Main Rotor : 17.3 meters
Tail Rotor: 3.9 meters
Wing span 6.5 meters
Length Length : 21.6 m (rotors turning)
Length : 17.5 m (fuselage)
Height 13 ft., 11 in.
6.5 meters (gear extended)
Cargo Compartment Dimensions Floor Length: 2.5 meters
Width: 1.5 meters
Height: 1.2 meters
Weight Maximum Gross: 11,500 kg
Normal Takeoff: 11,100 kg
Empty: 8,500 kg
Fuel Internal: 1,840 liters
Internal Aux Tank (in cabin): 1,227 liters
External Fuel Tank: 500 liters ea.
Fuel consumptionl 360 l/h (ground)
350 l/h (air)
Engine 2 x 2,200 shp Isotov TV-3-117 turbines
Maximum speed 168 mph / 335 km/h
Cruising speed 295 km/h
Range Normal Load: 450 km
With Aux Fuel: 950 km
Service Ceiling 4,500 meters
Hover out of ground effect: 1,500 meters
in ground effect : 2,200 meters
Vertical Climb Rate 15 m/s
Max �G� Force 1.75 g
Standard Payload Internal load: 8 combat troops or 4 litters
External weapons load: 1,500 kg
External load (no weapons): 2,500 kg
Armament 12.7-mm 4x Barrel Machinegun, YaKB-12.7:
Range (m): (practical) 1,500
Elevation/Traverse: 20� up to 60� down/ 120�
Ammo Type: HEFI, APT, Duplex, DuplexT
Rate of Fire (rpm): up to 4,500 (pilot selectable) 30-mm Twin Barrel Cannon, GSh-30K:
Range (m): (practical) 4,000
Elevation/Traverse: None (rigidly mounted)
Ammo Type: HEFI, HEI, APT, APE, CC
Rate of Fire (rpm): 300, or 2,000 to 2,600
750 - 1x twin 30-mm gun, or
1,470 - 12.7-mm 4 barrel turret gun
2-12 - AT-2C or AT-6C Spiral ATGMs
2-4 - 80-mm S-8 rocket pods (20 ea.)
2-4 - 57-mm S-5 rocket pods (32 ea.)
940 - GSh-23L twin 23-mm MG pods
4 - 250-kg bombs FAB-250
2 - 500-kg bombs
500 liters External fuel tanks Most Probable Armament
HIND D: Turret-mounted 4-barrel 12.7-mm Gatling type machinegun, 57-mm rockets, AT-2C/ SWATTER ATGMs.
HIND E: Turret-mounted 4-barrel 12.7-mm Gatling type machinegun or twin barrel 23-mm turret gun, 57-mm rockets, AT-6C/ SPIRAL ATGMs.
HIND F: Fixed 30-mm twin gun on the right fuselage side, 57-mm rockets, AT-6C/ SPIRAL ATGMs.
Loaded combat troops can fire personal weapons through cabin windows.
Sensors FLIR, RWR, laser designator
AVIONICS The ATGM targeting system uses a low-level light TV, a laser designator, FLIR, air data sensor, and a missile guidance transmitter.
HIND D versions are primarily daytime aircraft only. Some HIND E and Mi-35 series export versions have upgraded night and weather capabilities, better avionics, weather radar, autopilot, HUD, GPS, NVG compatibility, more armor, and an increased weapons load provided by the French company Sextant Avionique.

Survivability Main and tail rotors electrically deiced.
Infrared signature suppressors can be mounted on engine exhausts.
Radar warning receivers, IFF, Infrared jammer, rotor brake, chaff and flares.
Armored cockpit.

Crew Two (pilots in tandem cockpits)
Cost
User Countries At least 34 countries -- Armenia, Afghanistan, Algeria, Angola, Belarus, Bulgaria, Cambodia, CIS, Cuba, Czech Republic, Ethiopia, Georgia, Germany, Hungary, Iran, Iraq, Libya, Mongolia, Mozambique, Nicaragua, North Korea, Peru, Poland, Slovakia, South Yemen, Syria, Ukraine, Vietnam.

pics:

Reminds me of Rambo III(or 2?), where he uses an arrow with explosives to bring such a thing down

Who is he? GOD? NO. God knows mercy. He does not.

Longbow - good post! I live just a couple miles north of where CKK spotted these. I'll start watching more closely. I would be surprized if these were Hinds just because there's not much training type activity around here.

Here's another thought though. Was Kerry or Bush in to town when any of the sightings were made? When Bush has been here in the past they've had both planes helos in the air.

BTW, Bush is supposed to be here on Monday.

Originally posted by cmdrkeenkid
so here's where: the time before (two weeks ago) i saw them in livonia, at AMC 20... just east of i-275, between 7 and 8 mile roads. last night i was in farmington, headed east on m-5.

these two locations are about 5 miles from each other.

Very curious, as they are no training areas near there that I am aware of.
Near Lake St Clair, where I live, we often see the Coast Guard copters. And, occasional flyovers by aircraft from Selfridge.
I can remember large copters now and then, but didn't pay too much attention. Next time....

Maybe there is/was an airshow somewhere in the vicinity?

Makes sense to me.

[Edited on 2-5-2004 by Facefirst]

DTOM,
It's very rare to see any type of military/government flyovers on the west side except on Memorial Day or the 4th of July. About the only helos seen here are U of M's life flight and news copters.

What is red force? and why would they use Hinds?

I believe he was referring to the "Red Hat" Squadron that is supposedly based at Area 51/Nellis AFB that flies "reappropriated" Warsaw pact aircraft..there are a few pics of Area 51 floating around that you can vaguely make out Mig's, SU's...etc, BTW I couldnt find anything with Google about "Red Hat" Squadron...but I only looked a page or two deep.

Originally posted by CommonSense
DTOM,
It's very rare to see any type of military/government flyovers on the west side

Just goes to show how your take regular things for granted. We see transport planes now and then, the first time was kinda weird.
And those big copters, flying low and vibrating the air. I almost wonder if those are what ComKid saw.

It was very eerie after 9/11 to hear the constant fly overs the US shore.
What we don't see very often is commercial airliners.

I live right on lake michigan, the coast guard freaks me out all the time, zooming right by us. The president's choppers have flew by us also. I cant say I have ever seen anything other that american on this side of the lake.

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe

What we don't see very often is commercial airliners.

Wow, what a difference a few miles make. We're under the most common approach path for Metro. What that means is a steady stream of flights that, during peak flight times, can put incoming flights about two minutes apart. At dusk, you can see, maybe 8 planes or so, lined up in the cue for landing. The good news is that being so far from the airport, probably 25 to 30 miles, noise is not a problem. I've always felt bad for people who live right under the glide path and close to an airport.

wow, thanks for all that information on the Hinds longbow!

and yeah, as commonsense said, here on the west side we really only see news/police/medic choppers and airliners. occasionally we'll see the b-17 or other warbirds from the yankee airforce museum at willow run. these wern't from there, and haven't been to willow run though. i asked around there yesterday.

also, friday i was headed out to the airport to go flying myself. i called the FAA offices in lansing for a weather briefing and they hadn't said anything about an airshow... so i'm guessing there wasn't one that day.

i'm guessing i must have seen some sort of modified hinds, or i just couldn't see the wings then.

Originally posted by Todeskopf

What is red force? and why would they use Hinds?

I believe he was referring to the "Red Hat" Squadron that is supposedly based at Area 51/Nellis AFB that flies "reappropriated" Warsaw pact aircraft..there are a few pics of Area 51 floating around that you can vaguely make out Mig's, SU's...etc, BTW I couldnt find anything with Google about "Red Hat" Squadron...but I only looked a page or two deep.

No no, sorry, I wasn't clear enough.

Red Force is a general term for the opposition while on manouvers. You're Bule and they're Red.

Sorry for the confusion

thats some crazy # son

The US Army has 1 or 2 Mi-24 HIND gunships, captured from Iraq. They use them as adversary aircraft in wargames. It's not any big secret.... even the Irish know the US Army operates Mi-24s.

As for other Soviet helicopters, the Mi-8 HIP is very common in the logging industry, even in the West. More than 10000 Mi-8s were produced. It is one of the most common helicopters in the world.

Well shi*t, if the Irish know....

Maybe it was the Canadians? If we have any airworthy helicopter, it's likely they wouldn't have any working guidance system, so they could have been lost. . . Besides it's only Detroit. . . Thats a french name you know. . .

As he said it is no secret that the US Military owns many Russian war machines. It own various types of Migs. It owns many tanks. Actually back in the 70s the US military had hundreds of Soviet tanks. They put them out in the desert and used them to test the A-10.

It is unusuall but i think its just them training here or something.