WAR: 6 U.S. Soldiers Accused of Abusing Iraqi Prisoners,Bush Condemns.

Update: CNN

Inside that article it does state that 6 soldiers have been charged with abusing inmates.

I thought one of the points of this war was the you believed the terrorists e.t.c. way of life was completely out of whack and that the US, UK e.t.c. had the moral high ground?

I don't want to hear this "Well they did this once, so we are entitled to...blah blah blah...they should expect it in return" bullcrap.

If YOUR war on terror (not mine) is about showing the error of their ways, then you shouldn't stoop to their level. The troops should be saying "what you have done is sick, and we shall not respond in this way" to show that their way of life is better. Where's the moral high ground now you sickos? No one has a right to preach about which side is better after crap like this.

Go on, tell me that the "Coalition of the Willing(TM)" are doing the right thing and are on the right side of God e.t.c. now...
Don't make me laugh.

[Edited on 30-4-2004 by John bull 1]

I agree that the treatment of prisoners in such a manner is wrong and numerous officials in the US government and military have come out with statements and about this and the 6 soldiers in question have been charged.

No one was saying this is good conduct or excusable conduct. Unfortunately such things happen and it is the responsibility of the United States to punish those involved and try to prevent it from happening again. However to use the actions of these 6 people to represent the entire US military is stupid. To use this event to try and derail arguments in favor of the Iraq war is also stupid.

I saw the photos this am and heard some comentary, including the limited views of one of the accused soldiers father's. I'm paraphrasing, but he said that the soldiers in the photographs were not the only ones involved. That there are civilian interogators (CIA) people who are the root of setting up those situations. That his son had emailed him several times with complaints about atrocities and took pictures in order to have evidence to prove what he stated was going on.
That the civilian (CIA) interogators are the root of the problem, not the soldiers.

The father's microphone was rather abruptly shut off.
After that, they went on to other news.

The father also managed to get out the whole fiasco was going to fall on the grunts, the lowest ranking non coms, while there are officers involved higher up.

I can't be certain of the stationed I was tuned in to, I usually go to ABC first. So I think it was there that I saw this report. The reporter might have been Katie Curack. Whichever station she's on is the one that aired the father's views.

Very troubling situation. I don't like this any better than the attrocities that have been committed on the streets by Iraqis. Both should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

This is just like Vietnam when all the stories of the way in which POW's were treated, and it was caused by disillusionment of not knowing what they were fighting for and it spread.

The same thing is happening here, everyday the soldiers are becoming more and more disillusioned by what they're really fighting for and the lack of support, and again this kind of behaviour will spread. This is the only way they can take out their frustrations, and this kind of behaviour will grow because they can't see the lines of what is right anymore.

There is and will be no excuse for what has and had transpired, in regards to this subject matter. The soldiers that perpetrated these acts of atrocity were straightforward wrong. Though this can be twisted and turned back against the Islamic militants and there actions, it is pointless. Fault is fault and accepting fault is the first step to a rectifying the situation.

What these six soldiers did, and those officers who blindly turned a blind eye to such happenings, was again wrong. Call it lack of proper training, revenge, bloodlust, or simple lack of discipline, it will not change that this was wrong and they should have known better. The US and coalition went into to Iraq to liberate, to be portrayed and deemed the 'good guys', not to be or become an arm of the Saddam removed and/or his remaining thugs. With such a happening though, they have portrayed themselves as acting in a way that was not expected or warrented. In such an applied case, there is little symbolic difference between the US forces and Saddam and this is damaging to the perception that the US and coalition is otherwise trying to give and instill in the Iraqi populance.

With this being mentioned, these soldiers were the exception, not the rule. These soldiers were trained far better than this event portrays. They will undoubtedly get the book thrown at them and I think quite deservedly so.

What I do find utterly amazing through all this is the cry of damnation by those who oppose the US, the occupation, and the war. Where were those same damning crys when civilains were being hanged? Where were those damning crys when men were being dragged through the streets like dead cattle? Where were they when men and women were being torn apart or had guns pointed at their heads while being kicked and abused? Seems that as par, objectiveness is subjective and what serves the agenda or one's point of view is all that matters. Nah.....I'm probably wrong in thinking all this, but it is indeed ironic that it is the way it seems to be.



seekerof

[Edited on 30-4-2004 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by SeekerofWhere were those same damning crys when civilains were being hanged? Where were those damning crys when men were being dragged through the streets like dead cattle? Where were they when men and women were being torn apart or had guns pointed at their heads while being kicked and abused?

I remember a lot of condemnation after those attacks.

Many on this forum were calling for Iraq to be nuked and saying that we should just get rid of them all. A few of those same people are saying the US soldiers are being portrayed unfairly because of the actions of a few.

Is there hypocrisy?
I would say yes, on both sides.


[Edited on 30-4-2004 by AceOfBase]

Originally posted by jsobecky
There is something intellectually dishonest with jumping to conclusions and saying "shoot 'em" without knowing all the facts.

It's pretty clear when you have them in pictures, smiling while torturing human beings. Open and shut case, IMO. Unless they can prove it's not them in the pics, what other facts do you want? I doubt there is anything they can add that would sway my opinion. These people are $hit. Put them out of our misery. Their only hope would be to pretend they're not complete pieces a trash, which isn't good enough.

Ace, many of those on this board, as you assert, claiming or saying that a nuke needed to be dropped on Iraq, etc, are what? Pro-War? Pro-Bush?

My assertion was made to those who are against. Where are their comments in condemnation of such acts and atrocities in those threads? They are slim to none.

*edit* Nonetheless Ace, this is entirely my own opinion and insight. It is meaningless to this thread, per se'. The intergrity of the topic must be adhered to and maintained so simply disregard my comments as that of one just ranting. Again, the topic integrity must be maintained.


seekerof

[Edited on 30-4-2004 by Seekerof]

Just as a note,...this has exploded as a very serious issue in a matter of a couple of days.

The world has taken notice, and they are not pleased at all!

The lead post in this thread has been updated with this link from the memory hole: www.thememoryhole.org...

Originally posted by Satyr

It's pretty clear when you have them in pictures, smiling while torturing human beings. Open and shut case, IMO. Unless they can prove it's not them in the pics, what other facts do you want?

I doubt there is anything they can add that would sway my opinion. These people are $hit. Put them out of our misery. Their only hope would be to pretend they're not complete pieces a trash, which isn't good enough.

If they are guilty, they should be PUNISHED. Is shooting them an appropriate punishment? In some eyes, the answer is yes.

In some eyes, if we captured the Iraqis's that were responsible for throwing those other Iraqi's off the roofs, blindfolded, death would be too severe a punishment. Those same eyes would be at the forefront of the cry for making sure that the perpetrators received every benefit of the justice system and everything that goes with it, including making sure that the accused were accorded every consideration, such as prayer mats and balanced meals.

But when it's our boys, hang 'em high, the sooner the better! This is the double standard that I find ironic and disgusting.

Yes, it is, in fact, a double standard. And a little thought into both psychology and varying levels of standards will bear out that this double standard is not disgusting, but appropriate.

We must show the world that this is absolutely intolerable to us. That THIS atrocity is not representative of, or sufferable by us. The needs of the smiling jack-ass sadists do NOT out-weigh the needs of the many. I have no sympathy for the dire straits these idiot's very very bad decisions have put them in. But I DO have a driving concern for the dire straits these idiot's very very bad decision have placed us in.

Guilty - shoot them, hang them, or inject them. And the U.S. will have shown due diligence in their call to stop atrocities. But you cannot go into a country that has been hardened by tyranny, abuse and torture and say, yeah, boy's will be boys, we're sending them to three hots and a cot - carry on! It isn't going to work. And the implications are far reaching.


[Edited on 4-30-2004 by Valhall]

I am still in shock at these reports, but this combined with many other striking new realities now being exposed here at ATS I was left re-thinking my view on Iraq and this war all together.

It was claimed by another that the images of this abuse were faked.

Yet today President Bush himself condemed these actions of US troops in a speech. I do not believe that if this was fake Bush would even speak about it.

It is time to re-think what it is we are doing in Iraq, it is time for the international community to take the lead.

We are risking it all in Iraq now, and if we are not very careful now in every move, we could end up looking like the terrorists we claim we are at war with.

What a day.. what a journey this has been, at least for me.

Gazz

Originally posted by Valhall
Yes, it is, in fact, a double standard. And a little thought into both psychology and varying levels of standards will bear out that this double standard is not disgusting, but appropriate.

We must show the world that this is absolutely intolerable to us. That THIS atrocity is not representative of, or sufferable by us. The needs of the smiling jack-ass sadists do NOT out-weigh the needs of the many. I have no sympathy for the dire straits these idiot's very very bad decisions have put them in. But I DO have a driving concern for the dire straits these idiot's very very bad decision have placed us in.

Guilty - shoot them, hang them, or inject them. And the U.S. will have shown due diligence in their call to stop atrocities. But you cannot go into a country that has been hardened by tyranny, abuse and torture and say, yeah, boy's will be boys, we're sending them to three hots and a cot - carry on! It isn't going to work. And the implications are far reaching.


[Edited on 4-30-2004 by Valhall]

So then, let me make sure I understand you:

The Iraqi's that tortured their prisoners should be held to a different standard of justice than the US soldiers?

The judicial system should determine the appropriate punishment for the Iraqi's, but it has been pre-determined that the US soldiers should be executed?

It;s been a long day, and it's late, but I really am trying to understand what you mean.

More information on the abuses is coming out.
A report was done by Major General Antonio M. Taguba detailing some of the abuse at the Abu Ghraib prison.
The report was completed in February and detailed events that happened between October and December of 2003.

Taguba�s report listed some of the wrongdoing:

Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees; pouring cold water on naked detainees; beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair; threatening male detainees with rape; allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell; sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick, and using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.

There was stunning evidence to support the allegations, Taguba added��detailed witness statements and the discovery of extremely graphic photographic evidence.� Photographs and videos taken by the soldiers as the abuses were happening were not included in his report, Taguba said, because of their �extremely sensitive nature.�

Taguba backed up his assertion by citing evidence from sworn statements to Army C.I.D. investigators. Specialist Sabrina Harman, one of the accused M.P.s, testified that it was her job to keep detainees awake, including one hooded prisoner who was placed on a box with wires attached to his fingers, toes, and penis. She stated, �MI wanted to get them to talk. It is Graner and Frederick�s job to do things for MI and OGA to get these people to talk.�

www.newyorker.com...

[Edited on 1-5-2004 by AceOfBase]

Originally posted by jsobecky

Originally posted by Satyr

It's pretty clear when you have them in pictures, smiling while torturing human beings. Open and shut case, IMO. Unless they can prove it's not them in the pics, what other facts do you want?

I doubt there is anything they can add that would sway my opinion. These people are $hit. Put them out of our misery. Their only hope would be to pretend they're not complete pieces a trash, which isn't good enough.

If they are guilty, they should be PUNISHED. Is shooting them an appropriate punishment? In some eyes, the answer is yes.

In some eyes, if we captured the Iraqis's that were responsible for throwing those other Iraqi's off the roofs, blindfolded, death would be too severe a punishment. Those same eyes would be at the forefront of the cry for making sure that the perpetrators received every benefit of the justice system and everything that goes with it, including making sure that the accused were accorded every consideration, such as prayer mats and balanced meals.

But when it's our boys, hang 'em high, the sooner the better! This is the double standard that I find ironic and disgusting.

We're supposed to be more civilized, are we not? Isn't that the entire basis of these wars? Although I have no sympathy for anyone who kills or tortures, if our own guys do it, just for some demented kind of fun, they need to be punished very severely, if not put to death. The Iraqis do not represent America, as a whole. Our soldiers do, unfortunately.

Originally posted by jsobecky
The Iraqi's that tortured their prisoners should be held to a different standard of justice than the US soldiers?

The judicial system should determine the appropriate punishment for the Iraqi's, but it has been pre-determined that the US soldiers should be executed?

The Iraqis would be shot on sight, if they're hostile. They don't get the benefit of a trial. Our soldiers have the right to a speedy trial, and a speedy punishment. In this case, that punishment should be very severe. They've put a very bad blemish on America. That's going to be extremely harmful to our already tainted reputation. Many people already think we're monsters.

[Edited on 5-2-2004 by Satyr]

satyr

My question is whether the Iraqi's that committed those atrocities upon other Iraqi's should be held to the same standard of justice as is being called for the US soldiers. Throwing blindfolded, handcuffed prisoners off of buildings; not knowing when to break your fall, so the bone breakage is severe and painful, the medical treatment nonexistent.

Should the same standard of justice AND PUNISHMENT apply to these Iraqis if they are captured? Execution?

Originally posted by jsobecky
satyr

My question is whether the Iraqi's that committed those atrocities upon other Iraqi's should be held to the same standard of justice as is being called for the US soldiers. Throwing blindfolded, handcuffed prisoners off of buildings; not knowing when to break your fall, so the bone breakage is severe and painful, the medical treatment nonexistent.

Should the same standard of justice AND PUNISHMENT apply to these Iraqis if they are captured? Execution?

As I've already mentioned, they don't have a right to a trial. They just get shot. After all, if nobody sees them throw someone off a building, how are they going to know? And if they're caught in the act, it's open season on them, isn't it?