This revolution you speak of : implications

Originally posted by timewalker

90 million gun owners, 300 million guns (one for everyone)
I don't think our military will turn on its own people.
If they did think Taliban



[edit on 12-5-2009 by timewalker]

Are you refering to the Freedom Fighters we armed? We turned on them and we will turn on domestic terrorists. My buddy just got $15,000 to go to Afghanistan and shoot them. This amazes me because he already went to Iraq and saw what a mess we have made there. I guess money is all that matters to some.

reply to post by Oaktree

Oaktree, our SOG operations gave us a 150:1 kill ratio. Against hardcore, regular military troops.

You have no idea about who your neighbors really are.

What they've done in days past.

And what they are still capable of.

And you'll never be able to tell by looking.

reply to post by earthman4

Turned on yes, are we beating them down after 6 years, no.
You buddy is an idiot, $15,000??????????? To kill to pay the rent, very smart. I would not kill for $1,000,000. I would defend my family and freedoms on my homeland for free though.




[edit on 12-5-2009 by timewalker]

reply to post by xxpigxx


Please wake up. There is no chance, and I mean none - of a bunch of rag tag armed civi's taking down the US Military, ever. If you got the entire army drunk, then blind folded them we'd still lose. It's that bad.

Ok so someone tell me, how are you planning to deal with :

- attack helicopters
- tanks
- APC, misc medium armored vehics
- chem weapons (respitory irritants, etc)

SERIOUSLY? Are you going to take your little 45 cal hand cannon outside and start shooting down F16s? This is serious folks. This is not Veitnam. The mili has a map of every square inch of America. And last time I checked the layout of America is nothing like Vietnam. So let's not compare the two because they really are not comparable, at all.

Yal are thinking about this all wrong. The army isn't going to let you have ANYTHING. No water, no gas, no food, no bullets, no electicity, no gasoline, no cell phones, no internet - NOTHING.

The army is not going to let you mass thousands of people together, not even hundreds, not even dozens. You're not going to get a 1,000 or even 10,000 good old boys together and go marching up to washington. It is not happening. If they have to they will kill every single one fo you from the safety of 10,000 ft.

Think about it. Jets.

I'm just saying.

Seems like somebody grossly underestimates the average American, grossly overestimates the average enlisted man, assumes the average enlisted man will be willing to fire upon the average citizen, assumes the average citizen will line up single file and charge toward a tank like a bunch of morons, etc...

You can assume lots of things. Anything.

I like the bit about civilians not having ammo or ammo production facilities. He's obviously pretty well sheltered. I know a guy who built a second garage just for ammo storage.

I think in an urban environment that is already designed to be a control grid of sorts the OP is dead on. Relatively few in such an area will refuse to comply and those that do would be easilly dealt with.

Come out to the boonies.

I bet the OP is another who grossly underestimates the size and scope of the nation as well as the people who make up all that useless land between NYC and LA. There's enough land in Texas to give every American a half acre plot of land. The U.S. is huge and the people's cultures change drastically about every 30 miles in any given direction.

Then there's all those city-sheep.

Anything's possible once you leave Manhattan.

reply to post by autsse

Don't worry about the star count.

Actually, EMP's are quite easy to build. That's why it's referred to as as the poor man's counter electronic warfare. No, they don't teach the construction in high school, but a basic knowledge of electronics is sufficient.

And don't be so certain about thermal and infrared imaging. I have thermal imaging, it cost me about $13K, and it has limitations. They all do. So don't worry about thermal imaging. It's not a real factor, especially when they are so easy to overcome.

Those little shops you're talking about? They develop awesome weapons systems, always improving their own designs, weapons that haven't even been entered in the long, tedious, military procurement system. Brilliant people, just building brilliant weapons, all over America. The Feds may take what they have on hand, but they can't take what the REALLY have.

Forgive me, but I'm a former combat soldier, and I was in Special Forces. We were to go out into a backward-assed area, recruit, and train others. Oh, we could fight, but our specialty was in taking non-military indigents, and quickly training and raising small armies. So don't presume to tell me how the numbers work. I know how they work. That's why we were called "force multipliers."

In SOG, our "trained" indigents had a kill ratio of 33:1, over hardcore, trained military enemy soldiers. Not bad for some guys who weren't even soldiers.

You would do yourself justice to read in detail of the battle of Cowpens. Morgan had a small contingent of trained soldiers, and then he had the untrained militia. He got the militia to do what it could. And it was enough.

Your other mistake is an inordinate fear. You look at numbers. Numbers mean absolutely nothing. All history abounds with small numbers of dedicated men defeating large numbers of well-armed men.

In the words of Jackson and later Patton, take no counsel of your fears. The emphasis was on the word COUNCIL.

Every weapon system has limitations and weaknesses. Gunships, tanks, machineguns, and even Hummers. And many of us know those weaknesses.

You are again mistaken on ammo. The US Government contracts out to a civilian firm to provide their ammo. There are hundreds of smaller ammunition companies all through the country.

I can only produce about 600 rounds a day, if working by myself. And don't think I'm the only one who can do this, and who has stockpiled components.

Our military is certainly trained. I was trained by the military as well. As were millions of us now in civilian life. You don't have an argument there.

And your last mistake is in assuming we're going to get on line and fight the US military. Won't happen like that. And you would not believe how vulnerable the US is here in the States. Very limited ingress and egress, easily cut supply lines, and very limited supplies.

Your assumptions are probably fun to consider, but non-events.

Originally posted by Ace High
I think that it will only come to civil war if the hardships faced by the average citizen is greater than the hardships you have discussed.

I also think that most people aren't "wishing" for a new civil war, but think that it is impossible to avoid.

I hope that it never comes to that.

I agree, pretty sure I read it someplace ...... when people have lost everything (jobs, security, home and shelter, freedom and rights) they will revolt becouse they have nothing else to loose!

At that point there would be nowhere else to go but up...........

Why do I smell urine? Oh yes, because this thread is descending into a pissing contest...rather quickly. I jest, I jest…maybe not.

That's all that these threads really are...no disrespect to anyone intended...but come on...its a bunch of people pretending to be experts in subject matter that, lets be honest, most probably aren't...some may have a good baseline knowledge in military strategy gained from experience or study, some may be good with a gun, from being a soldier, a hunter, or a collector, some may be former Special Ops, former grunts, weekend soldiers or some may just pretend...but the reality is this...

There is NO TELLING how the entire "revolutionary" scenario would pan out...there is no way...none...what plans does the government have to prevent it, to combat it, to take advantage of it? What plans does the NWO have to prevent it, to combat it, to take advantage of it, to promote it?

There is only one certainty in all of this...a lot of innocent civilians would be caught in the middle...and the overall repercussions of it would be catastrophic for all of America... and all of the world…it would be an event that would completely shift the polarization of the globe and you can guarantee that other nations, such as Russia and China, would be happy to fill the power vacuum…

I’m going to have to go with autsse on this one here…the idea of a “revolution” is a bit…premature…there are far too many variables that often aren’t taken into account…

I think that a lot overestimation going on on both sides of the debate…the armchair warriors are overestimating their abilities and the anti-revolutionaries overestimate the ability of the military. Granted, there may be some overestimations of the military’s ability, after all, we struggled for a long time, and are still struggling against, in many ways, what many consider to be relatively untrained and unorganized insurgency in Iraq, not to mention the situation that is going to, more than likely, be unfolding in Afghanistan…and the military did struggle against the “insurgency” in Vietnam and Korea, after we didn’t quite “win” those ones did we? But…the difference between those three situations and anything that would unfold in America is that in those regions, violence on a “warlike” scale is a heck of a lot more common than it is in America. All of those enemies were already battle-hardened before we even stepped foot in the region. America, not so much.

But lets just add this to the mix of things to think about…fine…lets say that the US military couldn’t fend off an insurgency of “Patriots…” Do you think the government/NWO/TPTB would just put down their guns and say “okay, you’ve got us…we surrender…” No…they’d call in Corporate Mercenary groups such as Blackwater….who don’t give a rats a$$ about freedom or ethics or morality...they’re in it for the money…

Originally posted by Ace High
Another note, the OP assumes that the military would automatically side with the government against American citizens. I don't know if that is true. This military is voluntary and a large portion are true American patriots. I feel that the military would split into factions with the majority siding with the American people, not the corporate run government.

Have you ever used psychology to evaluate your opinion? If you did, I'm afraid you'd be surprised.

The most famous example is the experiment where they had normal people issue shocks to a man when he answered a question wrong. Of course the man wasn't actually being shocked, and gave wrong answers on purpose. With every wrong answer the voltage increased. Almost ALL participants went to the full voltage, very few refused and not one got up to go and help the person in the other room.

That was just joe citizen, now think about how it works when you have military members that are conditioned to take orders. It's a scary thought when you consider the outcome.

There seem to be about 300 posts concerning revolution with the majority of the same players just repeating, ad nauseam, their point of view.

It’s good fun but I’ve yet to see someone present an argument that causes someone to change his or her mind. ATS Revolutionists can’t understand why us others don’t see that the One World Government, Illuminati, Bilderbergers, Luciferians, Liberals, New World Order, Democrats, UN, Reptilians or what have you is/are getting ready to take our guns, rape our women and throw us all in FEMA camps.

So, instead of reading another post about how Dooper is going to singlehandedly McGuyver his way to victory during the coming wars, maybe it would help if someone explained why they feel that we are at the edge of martial law and will need an armed civilian resistance to fight our own government.

Damn it! Dual post.

[edit on 12-5-2009 by demo_man07]

reply to post by demo_man07

You fear too much, you fear organizations that don't exist, you fear their ability to have some magical powers to prevail, and you simply fear.

Then why don't we all lay down and just die?

All those fearful organizations you mention? BS!

They bleed just like anyone else, and they can't be all that good at what they do, or we'd already be in camps.

You fear things that go bump in the night.

I blow their damn heads off.

Originally posted by FX44rice
reply to post by Donnie Darko

 

We are not stuck with our government.

First, the majority of the people have to become aware of the policies and legislation being imposed upon them. At this time the majority are not aware.

Second, the masses in their state of unawareness will side against Patriots, as the Govt will make the Patriots out to be terrorists. So your neighbors will be acting as intelligence against you.

Third, what about NATO. You think other PTB nation alliances will not emerge to wipe out aggressors?

People need to critically analyze this issue before heading to Joes Army Navy Shop.

Informing the majority of citizens with the knowledge of what is being done to them, and what the future will look like if our Govt action continues is critically necessary, prior to any war violence.

Very true.

reply to post by dooper


Yes, I’m sure you do…

…but whether it bleeds or I’m afraid of being made into a stew by our Reptilian overlords is besides the point.

To actually convince readers here and the rest of the population that, in the near future, an armed resistance is going to be needed because some entity closely linked to our government is going to enslave, kill and/or violate the country’s citizens you’ll need to present a pretty strong argument.

So, why do you believe that the $h1t storm will soon be here?

Hey I just joined ATS and wanted to get in on this topic. I see one big problem with the idea of a Revolution. We do not posses the necessary communication to have one. All the communications lines will be got off and the few radios that people posses will be easy to track. We defiantly can't believe the media now, so that obviously will not change. That being said, I don't believe our own soldiers would attack us. Like other posters have said, the government already has outside forces and they will use them. All of us living in the rural areas may think we are safe but have to realize all the urban people rushing out to us. Who can you trust? You can't say that a small town of 500, even if they are all veterans, can with hold an army marching in. Plus we would have all the women, children, sick and elderly who don't or can't fight to take care of. I for one would never leave a fallen man behind but does the guy next to me believe that? There is way to many things that would need to be done. We would never be given the time to group up and construct forts and troops of our own. It would end up being small bands of local people fighting.

reply to post by demo_man07

Ah! You missed what I clearly stated, and you assumed another's mistaken presumption.

It has been said BY OTHERS that there is no need for patriots and such, as the military in an all out revolution would be wiped out.

I merely argued that the military is not the powerhouse presumed.

There will never be an all-out assault by patriots, militia, or the people on Washington, DC, fighting against the US military and the peaceful civilian population.

Never happen.

But I grew weary of hearing how powerful the military would be here in the US. This would be the one place they couldn't carpet bomb, or uses means of wholesale destruction.

It took a while for someone to eventually start to catch on.

Congratulations.

I think possibly a constitutional revolution is already underway of a sorts.One could even go so far to say that the battle line has been already drawn. The evidence is all around us,let us look at Georgias senate resolution 632 that was passed 43-1 and sent on to Obama.

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that any Act by the Congress of the United States, Executive Order of the President of the United States of America or Judicial Order by the Judicatories of the United States of America which assumes a power not delegated to the government of the United States of America by the Constitution for the United States of America and which serves to diminish the liberty of the any of the several States or their citizens shall constitute a nullification of the Constitution for the United States of America by the government of the United States of America. Acts which would cause such a nullification include, but are not limited to:
I. Establishing martial law or a state of emergency within one of the States comprising the United States of America without the consent of the legislature of that State.
II. Requiring involuntary servitude, or governmental service other than a draft during a declared war, or pursuant to, or as an alternative to, incarceration after due process of law.
III. Requiring involuntary servitude or governmental service of persons under the age of 18 other than pursuant to, or as an alternative to, incarceration after due process of law.
IV. Surrendering any power delegated or not delegated to any corporation or foreign government.
V. Any act regarding religion; further limitations on freedom of political speech; or further limitations on freedom of the press.
VI. Further infringements on the right to keep and bear arms including prohibitions of type or quantity of arms or ammunition; and
That should any such act of Congress become law or Executive Order or Judicial Order be put into force, all powers previously delegated to the United States of America by the Constitution for the United States shall revert to the several States individually. Any future government of the United States of America shall require ratification of three quarters of the States seeking to form a government of the United States of America and shall not be binding upon any State not seeking to form such a government.
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Secretary of the Senate is authorized and directed to transmit an appropriate copy of this resolution to the President of the United States, each member of the United States Congress.

www.legis.ga.gov...

As others have stated,for now, this is the only sensible way to go about things.

Originally posted by autsse
reply to post by Ace High

 

If you're doing an armed revolution they are going to shoot you. Period.

The point of my post was that the armed revolution could very well include portions of the military, groups that are sympathetic to the cause or evening leading a coup. Again, I am not for this at all but you have to consider that certain people in the military will see this as an opportunity for a power grab.

Uf ten percent of the population became involved in some sort of resistance the military would stand no chance. You fail to realize its easy to spot those guys while on the other hand the resistance can disappear into the crowd. I know if I decided to pull a John Conner I wouldn't go head to head with the military because that would be suicide. You have to take the advise of one of the emperors of the holy roman empire. He said the man that defends everything defends nothing. No what did he mean? Well let me tell You it means small attacks everywhere. I would blow up bridges, electrical lines, ambush convoys, stop the food transportation, and ambush soldiers while they are taking a dump. You don't go head to head with a professional military. You can make their lives miserable and lower moral by keeping food away and gradually wearing them down with pop shots. Now another point if You disrupt food and electricity to the people they get hungry. When people get hungry they blame the government ... So think about it .... Its called gorilla warfare....

Now this is not my attentions I am just saying what if this happened which more than likely won't.

reply to post by jkm1864


One thing you have to realize is they will have so many slaves. A lot of the people that they capture/join will be used to work their factories. They will be forced to do all the labor and in turn will be rewarded with their lives, food, medicine, and possibly protection? We will be both fighting the armies that the government bought and our own people who will be constructing their supplies. They will brain wash them and turn them against us.

We will need more than 5-10% of the population on our side. I'm afraid that us patriots will be overwhelmed, and will have to decide about the other Americans. I know in battle you have to cut strings every once in a while. That being said, are we going to be able to eliminate friends, family and neighbors that join their forces?

The government is overwhelmed with technology and all people that create it will be killed off. The few of us will need to combine our knowledge and try to establish our own military and strongholds. It would be a very tough thing to accomplish. The numbers will be against us.