Confessions of a Supra-Skeptic

First a few videos from art to set the flavor:


Lyrics: Today We Fly "The Question that Drives Us."

Like a child not ready to be exposed to a world
Where ignorance is bliss and war is all we know
Observing this world through the eyes of a bird
Only then we'll see what we could not be shown

Get inside before they flood the skies
The earth will then be cracked wait for the smoke to rise
At all costs we must endure this time
Extinction imminent somehow we will survive

The sweet relief of knowing we are not alone
Others just like us offer a hand to trust
Voices resonating from the depths of our dreams
Tell us to hold on, give us hope when in need

[the human spirit is powerful, soon we will think for ourselves
And discover the world around us. the beautiful, the ugly, the serene, the violent.
We will create and destroy, live and learn, experience love and loss.
Anything that is thrown at us we'll find a way through.
We'll find a way because we've only scratched the surface of our potential]

Can genetic diversity offer hope for humanity
In the form of a child untainted by reality
Just a spark of ingenuity to think up something quick
Before the hands of fate point to our conclusion
It's the question that drives us, the answer will find us
But nobody looks at it the same
It's the question that drives us, the answer will find us
Wrap me in the light of day

Outlast
Evolve
Rebirth
Breathe in
Open (your eyes)
Take in (the daylight)
Explore (this new world)
Breathe in (this new air)

And we will do whatever it takes
To leave something behind worth the price we paid
The apocalypse can wait at least for one more day
Our breed's not dying out this is a renaissance

We've wandered this earth in search of so much more
For what it takes to be more than who we are
And when our time comes will our bodies be one with the earth
There is life in every breath that we take.

What is the meaning of life?
Who are you?
Who am I?
Where did we come from?
Where are you going?
Where am I going?
What do you want?
What do I want?
Are you sure?
Why do you think that?
Are you sure you saw what you think you saw?
Does god exist?
Who is god?
What happens when we die?
What is reality?
What is the truth?
What is the point?
Questions upon questions upon questions upon questions upon questions upon questions upon questions upon questions upon questions upon questions upon questions upon questions upon questions upon questions upon questions upon questions upon questions upon questions upon questions upon questions upon questions.
That is all I really see, that is all I can understand anyone really seeing so long as they continue to question. And endless labyrinthine knot of so called answers only leading to more questions.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/b6583bedd1d3.gif[/atsimg]
Perhaps, this is because mankind is still young, not yet even really out of his cradle, yet thinks he's an adolescent.

When we are young, we endlessly question everything. Then, suddenly, most of us stop. We stop our questioning or only question that which does not "jive" with what we call "the truth" as if there is truly no more questions to be had and act accordingly, getting into wars of beliefs systems that all too often end in blood. That is what a belief system is to me, when you stop questioning and pretend there is no longer any questions to be had. Some will only question what they deem acceptable to question, which leads to my classic question to any of them.

"Why? Why do you think that yours and those that agree with you's perception are somehow purer than anyone elses? Sure you can find reasons for them to want to believe as they do but the same can be also said of you, despite the fact you often hide from that fact. There is nothing, no so called "fact" or "truth" that is not above questioning."

And that is our problem in the end, the great curse of mankind, we cannot abide by the unknown, so we fill our world with the way we think it should be and call it reality. We give up our questions of all things and only focus it upon which us or those we call our peers deem acceptable to question.................
Or perhaps I am just a crazy untrusting supra-skeptic?

In the end, I fear that I will ever have is questions.

What do you think?



[edit on 6-5-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

Think of a circle, or I should say a never ending spiral of increasing spheres of knowing, and then imagine a very thin pie-shaped slice in the smallest inner sphere, containing what you know, and then add another thin slice, comprised of all that you know you don't know ie: brain surgery, relativity, etc., and then consider that everything else exists in the realm of the unknown unknown, or what you don't know that you don't know, and getting present to that, to the entire realm of the unknown unknown, and letting it be, knowing that you don't know and cannot know, especially what you don't even know you don't know, and THAT knowing, is the only thing we can know with any degree of certainty.

Life is a mystery, and within that eternal realm of all possibilities, all points of view must be considered valid, but perhaps the best one of all, is the point of view which has no point of view, simply curious, an observer and an explorer of the eternal mystery for whom everything and everyone shows up fresh and new, and if there is any meaning to be had, it must be love, and any response or reaction, a sense of humour.

reply to post by OmegaPoint


Great post, but I do have to wonder about the idea of "love". It can be bent to mean a great deal of things and most forget that obcession is also a form of love. Not sure where I am going with that but do you get my meaning?

Oh and a few great quotes from Socrates you post made me think of:

I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance.
Socrates

I know that I am intelligent, because I know that I know nothing.
Socrates

The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.
Socrates

Aw, heck, here is the page I found a bunch of them at:Socrates Quotes

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows

That is what a belief system is to me, when you stop questioning and pretend there is no longer any questions to be had. Some will only question what they deem acceptable to question, which leads to my classic question to any of them.

Not all questions have dead ends! We can have beliefs but they need to be alive, open to new thoughts and new questions.

"Why? Why do you think that yours and those that agree with you's perception are somehow purer than anyone elses? Sure you can find reasons for them to want to believe as they do but the same can be also said of you, despite the fact you often hide from that fact. There is nothing, no so called "fact" or "truth" that is not above questioning."

I think you are aiming this at my thread? Just a guess, plus you edited your post out!

It is not that my view is any purer than anyone else's. It is just the fact that I ask! The words that Art spoke said it well:

"Most won't be unplugged. They want to be part of the system and won't unplug." (Or something to that effect and quite well said!)

A difficult thing to accept is that we are not clones. Some search and ask, while others say; "Eat, drink and be merry..." Avoid the negative! Seek only pleasure.

Words from the song:

Can genetic diversity offer hope for humanity
In the form of a child untainted by reality
Just a spark of ingenuity to think up something quick
Before the hands of fate point to our conclusion
It's the question that drives us, the answer will find us
But nobody looks at it the same
It's the question that drives us, the answer will find us
Wrap me in the light of day

You look hard enough the answer will follow. It means sometimes looking in unexpected places.

we cannot abide by the unknown, so we fill our world with the way we think it should be and call it reality.

True, until it no longer works for us.

We give up our questions of all things and only focus it upon which us or those we call our peers deem acceptable to question.................

Yes, unfortunately this is true of most of us. We like to follow our tribe.

Do we comply? Or do we reach for the stars?

Or perhaps I am just a crazy untrusting supra-skeptic?

Or just confused? Find your own path, and look for interesting trails.

In the end, I fear that I will ever have is questions.

Or let-go and see what the universe discloses. And have a laugh, as OmegaPoint intimated.

Thank you for inviting me to your thread!

reply to post by MatrixProphet


Oh, it wasn't in anyway aimed at your thread. And I don't few further questions as dead ends and never have. More like the stretch of an endless road.

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows

More like the stretch of an endless road.

Well, you got that right! Just think! We could be monkeys trying to do it. Or a banana or porpoise. We all share some of the same genetic make-up!

We could be asking where the next perpetual banana is going to be and if we are eating an ancestor.

reply to post by MatrixProphet


Sorry tangent you made me think of..... Since we are talking about animals. It is of my opinion that a great deal of animals have consciousness *and thus a soul*, perhaps not with the same ecentricities of the human animal and that is starting to be shown in the recent advances as to what we have observed in animals cognitive ability. I don't think we are above them, just another shade of different. But I question sometimes if we are really conscious at times.

I wish more people would quote Socrates . . .

I was speaking with a friend of mine recently about "endless digression", introspection, cynicism, etc.

He admitted that he "hits the breaks" when he finds himself questing and deliberating things too deeply. He stated that if he didn't stop himself, he wouldn't be able to enjoy anything. He said that asking too many questions can render someone passionless and friendless because they begin to question their own motives as well as others.

to which I replied. . .

"it's a good thing i enjoy questioning things."

reply to post by JPhish


Thanks for posting.
I think Socrates pretty much had it pegged on the subject of knowledge. Too bad very few really listen to him. I kind of understand where your friend is coming from, not because I hit the breaks but because I don't. I am always questioning mine as well as those around me's motives, if not openly all the time. But it does have an effect in my interactions with people. I don't see where he gets the passionless part though.


[edit on 7-5-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

Firstly, may I say that you OP is excellent. Well done.

I think, in regards to the progression of our curiosity and questioning and why it appears to stop, I think after a while we are given broad ambiguous options to choose in answering some of the bigger question, which we then may investigate with more depth. Most of us choose some of these options because they are simply all we have access to or have been exposed to, and then that "frees" us to go about functioning on an every day level, within our communities, employment, family and social worlds.
This is why people have religion, accept science , refer to the supernatural, get fascinated by ET or simply accept that they may never truely know.
The questions you ask are deep. They are time consumming and mentally and emotionally taxing, and dare I say dangerous at times. I mean really, to commit yourself to trying to discover the true answers to just some of the questions you ask, some people take on as a lifes work. Like priests, poets,artists, musicians, philosophers, scientists, theologist, guru's.
The majority of people just do not have the luxury to explore and ponder even a few of the questions you list, partly because, most of us simply have other more immediate material needs to satisfy first, like looking after family, supplying a house, investing in employment specific education over more philosophical or abstract ones etc.

But in saying that, I also think we are too willing to have these questions answered for us by institutions that have become the norm in providing insights into our existence, which I believe we all need to answer personally, via experience, personal introspection, exploring reality and how it is explained via a multitude of perspectives, meditative reflection on these perspectives and accepting, rejecting or intergrating them into something we may call our own interpretation of our existing. But this all takes time, and effort, and sometimes our psyche or intellects just cannot fathom the depths of the unknown once we decide to gaze into it ourselves, just for ourselves.
Sometimes, those that live simply, with a naive acceptance of any one explanation of how we exist have it the best, but once you give that away, you can never go back. Then you are on that road you mention. Questions to infinity plus those that are added on by the odd answers found that generate even more. To me the universe sometimes appears as fractal uncertainty within a reality of exponantial choice. But hey, thats just me.


Once again, great OP.

Excellent exercise in philosophical thinking: may I present, my rambling response to your most interesting ideas.

Questions

All the questions you have presented in short form, i.e. Who are you?, are all self-defining thought processes. The only answers that can be derived to these short, yet deeply profound, questions are ones that resonate within us as true at the given moment we are answering ourselves. Thus, if our view point, thinking structure and perceptive change, then so do our own answers to these questions. Our reactions to experience, feedback, stimiuli, and fundamental processing of our own memories and reactions, all define who we believe ourselves to be; in my opinion. Perhaps a better question would be, is there one unified answer to all these answers? A universal remedy?

Who am I? A simple and prosaic question. I am who I, and others, define myself to be. I am all ideas of myself that compliment and contradict each other.

Coming from and going to: The question itself implies either a time or a distance factor, where all moments are one – and the only perception that time is a linear progressive forward motion, is our physical ability to catalogue moment to moment in a linear fashion. So I say I am come from and going to everywhere in all directions at once.

I want, you want: A want is a thing of desire, seperated from an essential need. A want can be misinterpreted as a need, but is nothing more than a redefined fantasy of a wish.

Am I sure? There will always be doubt, for nothing is ever certain. There are lessor doubts and lessor certainties.

Why do I think that? I think of any idea because my thought processes have lead me to this conclusion.

Are you sure you saw what you think you saw? See, Am I sure?

God: God is an idea, an abstract concept embraced as an explanation and an interpretation. It encompasses the concept of omniscience; meaning having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight and possessed of universal or complete knowledge. Does the concept of God truly exist? I would like to believe it does, as the faith in such a concept can provide a feeling of comfort. I have no explaination for this faith, as it has no basis in science or fact, and I have no evidence of the existence of God – how famous I'm sure I would be if I did!

When we Die: This question is entirely subject to personal opinion, which does not need to be examined in any depth, or held in any regard other than to attempt to allay the fear of the unknown, which truly holds more terror in the depths of the imagined nightmares to which we can ascribe it. It is unknown and unknowable at this stage in time, that it might always be so is itself an unknowable idea.

Reality, Truth and The Point: We each perceive our world, ourselves and our life through a unique frame of reference. Each so utterly unique to itself, it could almost be an experience DNA pattern – much like our physical bodies, our life journey can not be replicated by another individual exactly the same. In which case, when we define our Reality, Truth and Point to existence it will only be a relevant answer to our life experience. Reality and to a degree truth, are just a general consensus of experiences and perceptions that the majority will agree on. The further you fall outside the general agreement of reality and truth, the more ostracised you become from society, and the lessor amount of tolerance for your aberration you will be shown. Some would refer to this as a herd mentality with a derogatory tone of voice. Yet you will find that even those who profess to despise this type of thinking, will still seek to conform in their own fashion in different ways. A true radical would be utterly condemned by the self-same herd mentality, and so even those whose voices cry aganist the wind will seek credibility in other ways if they do not wish their voices to go so thoroughly unnoted.

The wretch, concentered all in self,
Living shall forfeit fair renown,
And, doubly dying, shall go down
To the vile dust from whence he sprung,
Unwept, unhonored, and unsung.
-Sir Walter Scott

... questions are like instruments. They provide the opportunity to appreciate something completely anew, they help open our minds and prompt us to use what we have gathered to come to today's understanding. Questions can allow a person to escape the prison of what they think they know, and lead to an interested and interesting life.

Since the beginning of thought, man has sought to understand the universe and his own existence. He has sought to explain them through myths, superstitions, and religions on one hand; and through science and philosophy on the other.

Religion proffers answers to many of these questions, but based on alleged divine revelation as interpreted by ecclesiastical “authorities”, and expressed in dogmatic —and often irrational— belief systems. Science and Philosophy eschew dogmatic belief and seek to answer them by reason and logic or through experience.

As for the cylical question: I believe we begin our lives in a state of extreme growth and learn to define ourselves and our environment with questions and curiosity. As we come to our own conclusions to these questions, we question less. We become distracted by our lives and the moments we live in; however not all of us can be so generally classified. I do believe that with older age we again begin to question, as we have grown and received more information, more experiences to catalogue. Any new experiences or information that comes our way to contradict a thinking pattern will always cause a re-examination of ourselves, however brief, and either a re-confirmation of maxims already held or a discarding of old tenents no longer valid.

~end~

[edit on 5/7/2009 by azurecara]

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows

Since we are talking about animals. It is of my opinion that a great deal of animals have consciousness *and thus a soul*, perhaps not with the same ecentricities of the human animal and that is starting to be shown in the recent advances as to what we have observed in animals cognitive ability. I don't think we are above them, just another shade of different. But I question sometimes if we are really conscious at times

Well I think; why not use some of the same techniques that worked for one as for another. It kinda follows the old proverb where it speaks of God knowing and counting each star.

I create myself, and am very aware of each of my projects and even remember circumstances around many of my paintings and designs. I have "invested" in them consciously. Why would the Big Guy in the sky not do the same?

I agree, some of us are just compliers and do as we are told and don't think for ourselves.

reply to post by atlasastro


Firstly, thank you very much for the positive review. Always love to know that my bumbling grasps into the dark occasionally hit a complimentary note in others. Madness is always best when shared.
But I am not so sure that taking the time to question something should be considered a luxury, it seems to me an imperative. Regardless of whether it is complentary to their preconceived ideals or not, especially if one wants to truly champion any sort of true ideal of freedom. Pretty much, to put it another way, I am one who very much believes in the principle that regardless, the statement "Someone sold me a lie." is a copout because the true statement, the one that everyone seeking to put the blame elsewhere really means is "I bought a lie."

reply to post by azurecara


Excellent response you go farther down the rabbithole then I did, and pegged what I was getting at. But I merely wanted to comment about this, I have noticed as well there is a great deal of conformity in those that view themselves as "non-conformists" which I always thought was extremely funny.
And I would like to say this, reality is subjective. Can you agree with that rather short and sweet assesment?

reply to post by MatrixProphet


I think we sort of look at the world through different viewpoints, which please don't get me wrong, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I view whatever higher power may be out there as sort of a father/mother figure and we will one day be like him/her/it but we are in some sort of learning stage. And as any good parent knows there is a time you have to step back and let the child learn things for themselves for them to truly learn.

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows

I view whatever higher power may be out there as sort of a father/mother figure and we will one day be like him/her/it but we are in some sort of learning stage. And as any good parent knows there is a time you have to step back and let the child learn things for themselves for them to truly learn.

Actually, I couldn't agree more! I just like to point out other aspects to look at. Is it possible that God is a new parent also, albeit a few thousand or more years at it, but what is time to God?

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by azurecara

 

Excellent response you go farther down the rabbithole then I did, and pegged what I was getting at. But I merely wanted to comment about this, I have noticed as well there is a great deal of conformity in those that view themselves as "non-conformists" which I always thought was extremely funny.
And I would like to say this, reality is subjective. Can you agree with that rather short and sweet assesment?

If a "non-conformist" pays his taxes, what does this mean? Or perhaps, "Join a non-conformist group" - hello, can anyone say oxymoron?

But in answer to your short and sweet assesment, yes I whole-heartedly agree. Can it be anything other than subjective?

Is there such a thing as true objectivity?

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by JPhish

 

Thanks for posting.

I think Socrates pretty much had it pegged on the subject of knowledge. Too bad very few really listen to him. I kind of understand where your friend is coming from, not because I hit the breaks but because I don't. I am always questioning mine as well as those around me's motives, if not openly all the time. But it does have an effect in my interactions with people. I don't see where he gets the passionless part though.

my pleasure.

Well my friend was speaking of passions that are socially acceptable and considered productive to society; of which i apparently have none.

reply to post by JPhish


This come off sounding like so much congratulatory fluff but, I find that hard to believe. That last part.

To live and die.
I am me.
You are you.
We came from our parents, who came from their parents, who came from Mother earth.
Wherever my destiny takes me.
Wherever yours takes you.
Peace and happiness.
Whatever you desire.
Why not?
No, my senses could have deceived me. Reality is subjective.
Doubtful, but perhaps he is the artist of the cosmos.
The creator of everything, or at least Earth/The solar system/Milky way
Reincarnation? Rebirth? Spirit leaves this plane and goes to another? Eternal bliss? Eternal damnation? Nothingness? Purgatory? Hell? Heaven?
Whatever you make it out to be.
There is no truth.
There is no point.

reply to post by Deus Ex Machina 42


You do realise each of those "answers" spawn more questions right?

No...


#ing of course I do, the fact is the questions you ask can't be answered and I tried at the best of my ability to do so.


Don't ask stupid questions and you won't get stupid answers.