Are We Humans an Experiment in a Petri Dish?

Supposing that The Scientist or Scientists in the sky decided to create a new species? They lined up several Petri dishes and conducted their experiments. Within these dishes there would be organisms that would determine the quality of life that the Gods wanted to inhabit their earth or other planets.

Within this experiment would be the inclusion of different universes wherein these organisms could grow and evolve. They would allow them to morph into a Master Race that could eventually be the ultimate in their creation. Perhaps this would help them populate other planets or mix with many other species in the cosmos!

The most advanced organisms would mutate to the highest form while the Petri dishes (multiple universes) would also house organisms that would not evolve and would be considered the dross of the batch. So periodically the Gods would need to clean up their universes of these contaminated organisms so as to keep the healthier beings alive in a cleaner habitat. Otherwise if unchecked, the replication of the healthier organism would be destroyed. Eventually those who are not the fittest according to the Gods requirements would have to go. Otherwise the experiment is lost!

They would find the best of the mutations and would get rid of the rest or pass the more developed ones onto another more evolved universe.

Keeping this possibility in mind:

Let’s say that the Gods did indeed create multiple universes that parallel each other. Good and fine! Where does this take us? First of all, it explains why the Gods seem so heartless and uninvolved. How so?

Supposing you are a scientist and not just a lab tech. Another words; you are the genius behind some new experiments and you personally want to work out the logistics. Having a scientific mind would mean that you would be concerned with developing an environment that will be self sustaining once it reaches a level that you as a scientist want. Your whole goal is to achieve the best; the rest of the experiment that doesn’t meet your requirements will be removed or put aside. This is standard routine.

There may only be a few out of each dish that meet your standards. It may seem cruel to those that don’t meet them, however. Looking at it in a purely scientific way, it seems normal and perfectly acceptable.

This becomes an important aspect as this is where free will comes in. Many would argue on the reality of “free will.” But it does indeed exist. Mankind would receive the benefit of being able to somewhat influence their lives by their exercise of free will while others so damaged in the mutation process would not be given the chance. Here is where DNA plays a part:

Why did the Gods instill in each of these humans – healthy specimens or not, specific genetic tagging? A sort of “Pin” number (like for an ATM machine) or code? What possible reason could they have had? This plays an essential part of this tagging Game that would carry over from universe to universe! The Scientist may say “Hey little fella! You’re just what I am looking for as you have adapted beyond your species in this dish. Let’s move you to the next dish with others who are more evolved. Let’s see how you adapt and if you can influence those around you!”

Where does the element of multiple cross over universes come in? Do the evolved move on to other universes after they tackle the lesser ones? Does re-incarnation really apply not as has been taught by religion, but applying to those who transfer from one dimension/universe/density or vibration to the next? Wouldn’t DNA tagging keep the Scientists in touch with each organism or being?

Let’s say that one can evolve beyond the level of the universe they inhabit and the Gods transfer this person via consciousness into the next? The goal is to keep rising to higher consciousness levels but through different and separate universes. They know when this is happening as they feel a “shift” take place in their life (and can feel it in the world) and yet, still remain in the same body but feel like they don’t belong in that space and time and so feel; alienated.

What happens to the dross, the non-evolved? They naturally suffer the consequences of their lives and or choices, or the genetic makeup they were born with. Is that it? Well, suppose that these individuals also have an opportunity to be reborn in the lesser of the universes to be given another chance to evolve? DNA comes in handy here also. It is up to the Scientists.

Perhaps when it is all said and done, God is not as hateful as the specimens in the experiment would like to believe!

This is my take on something that is very complex, but to me answers so many questions that many of us are pondering. It adds to the quantum theory and makes sense of our existence and puts the notion of God or Gods into a more scientific light.

I look forward to your comments as I know many of you have expressed similar thoughts!

So they've stored us for thousands or even millions of years and we were never chucked out? Must be one helluva safe garage.

Hehehe,

Well, no I believe all of this experimentation has been going on for tens of thousands of years if not longer?

What does science show? Add to that philosophy and we have a real show.

Time for a garage sale, eh?

As A child I once believed we were all ants in a big experiment.

Most likely many of us have pondered this question.
We can not answer it though, for we can not see beyond ourselves.

reply to post by Tentickles


Yes I know what you mean, except I have had the experience that I talk about in my thread. A real sense of being in a place and time that I shouldn't have been.

Many people can also say that they have experienced deja vu. So there is some thought that I am agreeing with that there are times that our universe hits or touches another and that perhaps some of us can feel it happening.

Space is pretty big after all. What is the need to actually destroy your failed experiments?

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows

Space is pretty big after all. What is the need to actually destroy your failed experiments?

Actually he doesn't. He may give his experiments another try through a lesser universe. All energy goes back into the universe, does it not? So the fact that we all have DNA is a pretty big clue that HE does want to remember who we are even after death.

Mankind DOES die and not always pleasantly. He has the option to re-new us or give us a re-birth.

It is better than most options that I hear!

Actually if someone will be technologically capable of taking such an experiments, they would me more then capable to simulate in a virtual world. Of course ,virtual for them. Not virtual for their subjects. But then their interfearence in the project needs to be nullified. And actual energy wasted would not have to be that high. For them. Analog of what our supercomputers in two/three generations would need.
So if we are just a simulation (Civ 11 so to speak) - then we should fear the doomsday off switch. Or blue galactic screen of death.

Ya, I think that they would be capable of countless things!

I love the whole many dimension/universes as it makes so much sense to me. Think! We only know a little bit about the 30% of our universe that is visible while 70% of the universe is invisible and we know even less.

What I believe is the key is our DNA. What purpose beyond our understanding does it fulfill?

"Let man THINK he knows it all and THINK he can control all, but when all is said and done, we hold the key!" -The Scientist in the Sky.

I understand your point(I think). But I draw some overall issues, as I think you are looking at things too "linear", but I think in general going in the same direction. Just need to widen the scope a bit maybe.

I think the key to this all is "free will". We do have free will, but what does "free will" actually mean. What are it's requirements.

If reality and this universe were simply linear, then free will could not exist. Everything would be bound to action and reaction. The actions and reaction could be complex, but all things would be pre-determined.

This means that in order for free will to exist, all possibilities must also exist. If all possibilities do not exist, then free will no longer exists. And so the obvious question becomes - what about the creation which is bound to action and reaction. And the answer is - part of free will is the ability to give it away. And why would someone want to give away their free will? And that answer is logically - for the experience itself. This I think can be expressed in a card game. There is nothing physically stopping us from being able to see all the cards at once, but if we did see all the cards at once, then the experience of the game itself is lost. Can't bluff, nobody is going to bet because the outcome is known and so forth. Keep this in mind.

So if all possibilities do exist, and if they do exist side by side, and we do have free will then we must be constantly moving within these dimensions.

Take the linear dimensions or what you see as alternate dimensions, and add an axis. Now look at it in terms of not just movement in 1 direction, but in multiple directions. So, lets set up an example. Right now you can walk to your fridge. Imagine a straight line to it. That is how you are currently perceiving things in this linear form. Now, imagine if you vear off a bit to the right or left based on your choice of doing so, now you are see 2 possibilities, 2 possible future dimensions at once. Which one becomes reality is your choice, your free will.

People talk about going back in time in order to make a change that affects the future, but the truth of that is you can do those same actions and changes now, and then change the future. Just as you can decide to take the other path to the fridge. If that 2nd path was not available, then you do not have free will.

So this is how I believe we move in the universe. Not really multiple, but can be described as multiple in perspective, so I think I understand you. But while this may be how we move, it says nothing of where we are currently. As all possibilities exist, then any different amount of factors can exist.

So can we evolve and so forth beyond this. I would have to say yes, I think so. And the way we do that is by making the correct choices. While the fridge example is easy to understand, it is also an example where the choice has an obvious outcome(which makes it understandable). Other things are not so easy to see the outcome of, or doesn't come immediate etc.

As I am sure you know, I do not consider the physical to be "me", I am consciousness and I am only consciousness. My consciousness is that which does the moving, the physical remains and seems to follow as part of the free will I have given up for this experience.

Your basic premise seems to be - do the right things, and go further. Do the wrong things, and game over. And that is generally agreeable, and seems to be a universal truth among all religions, among all people. Some disagreement on when it "ends", but while it's going that is what all people generally agree upon, no matter what their beliefs. As such, I would classify that as a universal truth.

IMO consciousness itself is eternal and can't be destroyed, it will be absorbed by the father(god), of which is the only true observer. IMO, a soul is an individual consciousness of the father. So what you are really talking about IMO is if we keep this individuality/soul onto other experiences, and I think so.

I would have to say that no doubt there are beings that exist which are far more advanced and have far more understanding than I do. So it doesn't seem illogical that they could play a hand in things as you suggest. However, I'm not so sure about the whole experiment thing so much, as I would think of what could be gained from an eternal soul/being for experiencing certain things. And for them to get to such a higher level, did they have to go through ours? Or do they now?

This is hard to talk about, because I don't want to put things into absolutes. There are many levels to a topic such as this, and it's hard for me to stay on a single level.

I consider information, knowledge and wisdom to be the most valuable things a being can have. And not so much about what the perfect being or physical race could be. That is where I think our differences will come from. The being and experience is perfect as is. Not because what is experienced and such is all "perfect", but rather because it is perfect for the information, knowledge and wisdom that is gained from it.

Because the experience will automatically adjust based on the choices you make. As you change in the dimensions etc. But there are things which are locked in for our life time, and that is probably determined at a higher level, which would be like what you are talking about. I call that higher level a deeper part of self.

But I would think of things as being an experience, rather than a experiment.

www.answers.com...

1. The apprehension of an object, thought, or emotion through the senses or mind: a child's first experience of snow.
2.
1. Active participation in events or activities, leading to the accumulation of knowledge or skill: a lesson taught by experience; a carpenter with experience in roof repair.
2. The knowledge or skill so derived.
3.
1. An event or a series of events participated in or lived through.
2. The totality of such events in the past of an individual or group.

vs
www.answers.com...

1.
1. A test under controlled conditions that is made to demonstrate a known truth, examine the validity of a hypothesis, or determine the efficacy of something previously untried.
2. The process of conducting such a test; experimentation.
2. An innovative act or procedure: “Democracy is only an experiment in government” (William Ralph Inge).
3. The result of experimentation: “We are not [nature's] only experiment” (R. Buckminster Fuller).

As what you are doing is experiencing and then your choices and such determine a path. If it is an experiment, then our reality would be linear, as it has to be a controlled environment(loss of free will, to which was not our choice) to have an experiment as you are testing, rather than experiencing.

I think the real question is - what path are we on, what path do we want to be on, and how do we do that. I think that will hold to be true no matter which possibility ends up to be true, or what level we achieve.

This is general response, if you would like, or be interested I can answer your specific questions, such as god and the pin number thing. I can explain that. I'd be happy to, just don't want to take the time to type it out if not wanted. I'm not really one for short answers.

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
Actually if someone will be technologically capable of taking such an experiments, they would me more then capable to simulate in a virtual world. Of course ,virtual for them. Not virtual for their subjects. But then their interfearence in the project needs to be nullified. And actual energy wasted would not have to be that high. For them. Analog of what our supercomputers in two/three generations would need.
So if we are just a simulation (Civ 11

so to speak) - then we should fear the doomsday off switch. Or blue galactic screen of death.

But there is no logic that can make something observe, what you "see", feel and otherwise are not things which can be programmed by logic. You can program and use logic to trigger the feelings and such, but the actual ability to feel and observe is beyond logic. That is consciousness, and consciousness is beyond logic. It is that which creates logic, and all of creation is based on the logic created.

Thus, in the beginning there was only the word, the logic, the code.

So, while the reality itself can be(is IMO) a virtual reality, it still requires consciousness to observe it.

Like if you play a video game, you are not the AI, you are not even your character in that game, you are the consciousness behind that character. In the game the AI is not conscious it just follows the patterns and logic given to it.

Your eyes collects light, turns that into an electrical signal which travels to the back of the brain, and is then converted back into the image you see. If you are your brain, if you are your body, then how is that being presented to you? Whom or what is it that does the observing.

Or as in the wizard of oz - who is the man behind the curtain. One must find their true self and look behind the curtain.

reply to post by MatrixProphet

You asked :
Are We Humans an Experiment in a Petri Dish?

Certainly, all indications are this is what we have all been trained ( like so many circus monkeys ) to 'suspect,' but don't fall for it !

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[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/4d69d2ac4170.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/2d08089dc0f1.jpg[/atsimg]Source : Amazon.com

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
Ya, I think that they would be capable of countless things!

I love the whole many dimension/universes as it makes so much sense to me. Think! We only know a little bit about the 30% of our universe that is visible while 70% of the universe is invisible and we know even less.

What I believe is the key is our DNA. What purpose beyond our understanding does it fulfill?

"Let man THINK he knows it all and THINK he can control all, but when all is said and done, we hold the key!" -The Scientist in the Sky.

Here's how I think of DNA and our bodies.

Cells are self reproducing nanobot technology and the DNA is the code they follow. When I look at DNA, I see the same basic principles I see in programming. And when I look at cells, I see biological bots which follow that code and that logic.

I need to introduce some outside things here. Other "dimensions" of sorts for code etc. And give you a brief overview on how programs work internally.

On your PC you have libraries of common code. This common code is generally located in your Windows system file. These libraries are called .dll files, which stands for Dynamic Link Library. These are your drivers and such for programs.

Some code is so common among programs, that many programs use these libraries. So to save space, we put them in the system folder, and then each of these programs calls these libraries up from that system folder, rather than keeping a copy of each library in each file. So what we are introducing here are other dimensions of information, where each folder in your directory structure is it's own dimension.

Now, in the program itself, this code is called up through very simple commands, where you send the configuration variables to the library. The library then does the work, and returns the information after it. So, in the code of every program that uses that library, there will be a structure it follows in calling that command. And each individual program will have it's own unique variables to send.

And we see this in DNA. You change 1 part of the code, and blue skin turns green etc. Because all that is being changed is a variable of the code. So the DNA is like a config file that contains the unique variables for each person/organism, and then the cells carry out that code.

Now, because these programs all share the same code in these libraries. You can actually make updates to those programs without ever touching the actual program itself. BUT, the changes will apply to all the programs that use that library. Aka, driver updates. Update your graphics drivers, and all the programs that use those drivers are also updated. And you never touch the individual program or change it.

Programmers generally dislike doing the same thing over and over. It's a waste of time. And so we like to reuse code as much as possible. And while I use many many libraries for common functions, I also create my own libraries. But I might not always use all the code of the library. And so I get "junk code" or "junk DNA".

If I used code to create a monkey 1 day, you can pretty much bet the code you are going to see in the human the next day is going to be pretty similiar too. I have little reason to redevelop the way a stomach works if I already have a working one. Just a few little config changes so it's working ok, and bingo.

And I am talking about large visible changes with only a very small change. For example, if I want to draw a box. I will write a function that draws a box. And then from that point on, I will use the function anytime I want to draw any box. But I will just say, drawbox(this size). And the only difference between a box that is 1 inch squared and 1 that is 1 million miles squared is just a variable. Big difference in the output, 1 small change in the input.

So the most effecient code in the end, and what becomes the "visible part of the code", I'm not going to carry the function that draws the box in the main page of the code, I am only going to carry the part that says drawbox(1 inch). The box drawing will be in a library in another dimension.

The study of genetics is just trying to reverse engineer this really advanced technology. Trial and error mostly, change the DNA here, see what happens and make note. Eventually you can come up with a pattern, and identify the function of that part of the dna.

I'm in no way some kind of genetics person, so I have no idea how much code is in the dna, and how much is in another library or whatever. Just that I see it working in the same way I see programs working.

But, at the end of the day, these things just determine the vessel in which our consciousness resides. We might get a ferrari and we might get a metro, but these things only define our experience, not who we really are. The genetics define my body, my brain, what I am capable of, and my position in the universe in time and space determine the experience of. Where as the body is the car, and the universe is the street it drives on.

And in support of your above theory, we certainly do not have the keys. If we had the keys, then we would be able to manipulate our dna to whatever we wanted, grow back limbs and so forth. Don't like being fat, you could have your body process it out etc. Want more muscle, tell your body to make more. Right now we "tell" it to do that by using them.

But I'm not sure who exactly does have the keys, outside a deeper part of myself. As a rule of free will is that I must give it away, even if only on a subconscious level. And I can probably think of more than 6 billion reasons why I would do such a thing for an experience, especially if I knew I had nothing to fear in the end.

Traditional wisdom suggests that you can't have those keys until you are mature enough to handle them, and if you are mature enough to handle them, then you wouldn't need to be on this planet to start with.

[edit on 6-5-2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by badmedia


Ya got me!

Actually, I don't think so linear, but I know so many left brain thinkers on ATS do! It was my goal to put this whole scenario into a more linear context as I have tired of atheists being so "sure" of their beliefs regarding a God. My goal is to always challenge the thinking of many to assist (in my small way) to help them out of a box.

Doesn't usually work!

You and I both think much more out of the box and love to talk about it.

This means that in order for free will to exist, all possibilities must also exist. If all possibilities do not exist, then free will no longer exists. And so the obvious question becomes - what about the creation which is bound to action and reaction. And the answer is - part of free will is the ability to give it away. And why would someone want to give away their free will? And that answer is logically - for the experience itself. This I think can be expressed in a card game. There is nothing physically stopping us from being able to see all the cards at once, but if we did see all the cards at once, then the experience of the game itself is lost. Can't bluff, nobody is going to bet because the outcome is known and so forth. Keep this in mind.

These are some good points! If we limit our thinking as so many wish to do, then this limits our perspective, but not reality. The point of this thread is to challenge our beliefs and at times; narrowness.

Take the linear dimensions or what you see as alternate dimensions, and add an axis. Now look at it in terms of not just movement in 1 direction, but in multiple directions. So, lets set up an example. Right now you can walk to your fridge. Imagine a straight line to it. That is how you are currently perceiving things in this linear form. Now, imagine if you vear off a bit to the right or left based on your choice of doing so, now you are see 2 possibilities, 2 possible future dimensions at once. Which one becomes reality is your choice, your free will.

Exactly. I think of it as "variables." Variables within a dimension yet our bodies may or may not distinguish the difference. I like the "axis" aspect that you used!

I have had the experience as I mentioned in my OP of "sensing" a shift in my life, one that was very pronounced. The Gods shifted me from one reality to another. They wanted me to sense it so I could distinguish the difference. In this case, it had nothing to do with my free will as I am aware of the difference. This was quite different.

So can we evolve and so forth beyond this. I would have to say yes, I think so. And the way we do that is by making the correct choices. While the fridge example is easy to understand, it is also an example where the choice has an obvious outcome(which makes it understandable). Other things are not so easy to see the outcome of, or doesn't come immediate etc.

Yes, unless the choice is forced on you. Here is my experience in spirituality: the more spiritual one becomes, the less free will that one has. This is difficult to explain except that; it becomes much more difficult to make inappropriate choices. The outcome can far outweigh the level of the mistake. When I was spiritually young the results were different and softer, whereas, now, many years later, it is never worth the choice that isn't healthy, as the result is always far worse.

The more dysfunctional I used to be - the less the consequences affected me on a God related level. I had much more free will. The more I evolved - the less.

Your basic premise seems to be - do the right things, and go further. Do the wrong things, and game over. And that is generally agreeable, and seems to be a universal truth among all religions, among all people. Some disagreement on when it "ends", but while it's going that is what all people generally agree upon, no matter what their beliefs. As such, I would classify that as a universal truth.

Yes, although I am really speaking of those with inherited defects in character or genetics. Inherent faults in the DNA and not so much performance driven faults. I do not believe that we can perform our way into spirituality or righteousness. So it is not a matter to me about doing the right things as much as it is knowing what is right and living the best that one can do under the bonds of being human.

Another words: knowing our character defects and assets so as to not live in denial nor be victims, which divides us from God. This is where there is a tremendous division between spirituality and the bondage to religion.

However, I'm not so sure about the whole experiment thing so much, as I would think of what could be gained from an eternal soul/being for experiencing certain things. And for them to get to such a higher level, did they have to go through ours? Or do they now?

I am using the experiment illustration to show that there are so many variables to consider. I myself actually believe that there is a universal Game of sorts going on amongst the Gods, and is one for us to decipher its meaning. How do we fit? Why are we here? Why do the Gods allow for so much sorrow and pain? Much of this can be answered if we turn the box inside out and attempt to view them in a different light.

I like experience also. Yes, I do feel that a lot of what involves us and the Gods relates to lack of experience, or a learning experience, at the very least. History would seem to support me in this.

consider information, knowledge and wisdom to be the most valuable things a being can have. And not so much about what the perfect being or physical race could be. That is where I think our differences will come from. The being and experience is perfect as is. Not because what is experienced and such is all "perfect", but rather because it is perfect for the information, knowledge and wisdom that is gained from it.

I once asked God what perfection meant, and he said, "In one word: Freedom."

What we choose to do with that 'Freedom" is up to each of us individually. Yes, wisdom especially can = freedom.

As what you are doing is experiencing and then your choices and such determine a path. If it is an experiment, then our reality would be linear, as it has to be a controlled environment(loss of free will, to which was not our choice) to have an experiment as you are testing, rather than experiencing.

But...if we are speaking of The Gods? Why couldn't this be an experiment for them? True, we experience - experience, but they may have had to create an experience from an experiment! What life experience prior to creating humans did they have? Perhaps this is the question we will never know the answer to.

I think the real question is - what path are we on, what path do we want to be on, and how do we do that. I think that will hold to be true no matter which possibility ends up to be true, or what level we achieve.

This is general response, if you would like, or be interested I can answer your specific questions, such as god and the pin number thing. I can explain that. I'd be happy to, just don't want to take the time to type it out if not wanted. I'm not really one for short answers.

I couldn't agree more!

I would be most interested on your take on anything I have written!

Thank you for this discussion and taking it to a higher level.




[edit on 6-5-2009 by MatrixProphet]

reply to post by visible_villain

Certainly, all indications are this is what we have all been trained ( like so many circus monkeys ) to 'suspect,' but don't fall for it !

Hopefully, you will read my post below Badmedia. There is more "behind" what my OP is saying. I felt it important to approach the whole God thing in a different light, as so many either disregard him, or have high strictures regarding him.

I appreciate your example! Have you heard of Eckankar? "The Shariyat Ki Sugmad?"

Eckankar is founded on Hinduism and Buddhism with some Christianity thrown in. Very similar to your reference.

I take what resonates with me and leave the rest, as I don't go in for religion under any guise, but I do find many philosophies or beliefs interesting!

I appreciate your post and thoughts!

reply to post by badmedia

If I used code to create a monkey 1 day, you can pretty much bet the code you are going to see in the human the next day is going to be pretty similiar too. I have little reason to redevelop the way a stomach works if I already have a working one. Just a few little config changes so it's working ok, and bingo.

Thank you! You have a far better way of explaining it than I ever could.

It explains why we have some similar genetic qualities as a banana, porpoise (or dolphin, can never remember) and monkey. Yet I refuse to believe that my ancestor was a banana! I might think there is limited truth to re-incarnation but this is ridiculous!

But I'm not sure who exactly does have the keys, outside a deeper part of myself. As a rule of free will is that I must give it away, even if only on a subconscious level. And I can probably think of more than 6 billion reasons why I would do such a thing for an experience, especially if I knew I had nothing to fear in the end.

Traditional wisdom suggests that you can't have those keys until you are mature enough to handle them, and if you are mature enough to handle them, then you wouldn't need to be on this planet to start with.

We differ a bit on this. I do believe that God is separate completely from us. If, this is what you are saying. I do believe that his essence is in us, and his "force" will work in us, or for us, but not part of us. (I have a very real problem with dysfunction and perfection mixing, etc.)

I am not much of a "lower self" & "higher self" thinker. I realize this is a prevalent thought and teaching, but in this we can differ. I have deep thoughts as to why, on that. Regardless, there is a lot of similarity in our thinking, and I enjoy our discussions!

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
I have had the experience as I mentioned in my OP of "sensing" a shift in my life, one that was very pronounced. The Gods shifted me from one reality to another. They wanted me to sense it so I could distinguish the difference. In this case, it had nothing to do with my free will as I am aware of the difference. This was quite different.

Well, I can only relate that I remember the specific day when I "woke up", the specific time when I started to gain understanding beyond the literal and so forth. That was very much like a shift, my entire perspective on things changed completely. I see things completely different, but my eyes still see the same things. I can see how that can be likened to a shift in reality.

Yes, unless the choice is forced on you. Here is my experience in spirituality: the more spiritual one becomes, the less free will that one has. This is difficult to explain except that; it becomes much more difficult to make inappropriate choices. The outcome can far outweigh the level of the mistake. When I was spiritually young the results were different and softer, whereas, now, many years later, it is never worth the choice that isn't healthy, as the result is always far worse.

The more dysfunctional I used to be - the less the consequences affected me on a God related level. I had much more free will. The more I evolved - the less.

I have not lost any free will, at all. But my will has changed for sure. I don't do the same things I did as a child, but I also don't want to either. I "gave up my will", but it was not taken. Instead, I was given understanding which changed my will to what it is. A matter of perspective I guess.

Yes, although I am really speaking of those with inherited defects in character or genetics. Inherent faults in the DNA and not so much performance driven faults. I do not believe that we can perform our way into spirituality or righteousness. So it is not a matter to me about doing the right things as much as it is knowing what is right and living the best that one can do under the bonds of being human.

Another words: knowing our character defects and assets so as to not live in denial nor be victims, which divides us from God. This is where there is a tremendous division between spirituality and the bondage to religion.

I do not think of these things as that person. What divides us from god is IMO associating these kinds of things, and this physical as being ourselves, rather than god. As we associate these defects and so forth as being ourselves, then we see ourselves as being things which are not of god, not perfect and so forth. I see these things as defining the experience, of which we are to learn and overcome. And you can do that when you realize what you truly are(god), but you can not do that if you associate those things as being a definition of "you". Those defects go away at death, because they are part of the experience, not you. How you deal with that experience will be what defines "you" and what your true characteristics are.

It is easy for us to dwell on such defects. And people will gladly point at the them for you, and tell you that you are those things. I'm sure you know "what is your greatest fear?". If not I'll post it, cuz it's great.

Like the movie waking life, it's not the colors your given that matters, it's what you do with those colors. A flat landscape is dull and boring, the most jagged and rough mountains often make the best paintings and views. It's those imperfections that make people unique. 6 billion of the same painting is no more exciting than 1 of the painting, unless you are selling them for $100 a pop.

I am using the experiment illustration to show that there are so many variables to consider. I myself actually believe that there is a universal Game of sorts going on amongst the Gods, and is one for us to decipher its meaning. How do we fit? Why are we here? Why do the Gods allow for so much sorrow and pain? Much of this can be answered if we turn the box inside out and attempt to view them in a different light.

I like experience also. Yes, I do feel that a lot of what involves us and the Gods relates to lack of experience, or a learning experience, at the very least. History would seem to support me in this.

I can create an experiment with a program, and that experiment can run and then give me the results without me doing anything. I can not program an experience without including a consciousness. This is the main reason I abandoned trying to create AI. Not because it's not possible, but because it can not evolve past the artificial stage without acquiring consciousness, of which logic can not create. I can create a if this happens, then feel this way logic all day long, but there is no logic that can create the actual feeling itself.

And it doesn't matter how advanced a race of beings gets, you can not get around this. Consciousness is god, and if you are conscious then you are god. It would take an act of god to get consciousness into such a thing, and if these beings created all these universes, it was done based on logic, and thus to get consciousness into it, requires and act of god, or an act of giving away ones free will. In my AI, the only way I could give it consciousness would be to somehow transport my consciousness into it.

And this btw is something that is well known among those who work on AI, and they are trying to actually develop ways of doing exactly what I talk about, into an electrical brain. Where the programming and such works on the same principles as a brain, and performs those kinds of functions(although the idea is that it can forever be repaired and upgraded), but your consciousness is put into it.

Without the consciousness, it will forever be "artificial intelligence", which is not actually intelligence at all, but mimicks intelligence based on the logic(which is created by real intelligence) gave to it. While it is artifical, it will be able to do many things better and faster than humans, and perform many of great tasks. But it will never be able to know what it means to be, it will be bound only to the logic given to it by the programmer, thus completely devoid of free will and so forth. If programmed well, you would NOT be able to tell the difference between it and a real person. But it will not have a soul, it will not have consciousness and it is nothing more than a very complex group of patterns.

Your body and the way it functions is like this. It comes from the dust of the earth, from logic and follows the laws of creation. All of it follows logic and so forth. But the consciousness is different.

So if they created all the universes and such, then they would still have to at one point or another put their own consciousness into it. Otherwise, it is "dead", and you might as well be running a bunch of numbers across your PC while you sleep.

I am not the experience, I am that which experiences.

I once asked God what perfection meant, and he said, "In one word: Freedom."

What we choose to do with that 'Freedom" is up to each of us individually. Yes, wisdom especially can = freedom.

People don't realize how special freedom is, they just can not imagine how unique and illogical freedom and free will is. You just can't create it.

But...if we are speaking of The Gods? Why couldn't this be an experiment for them? True, we experience - experience, but they may have had to create an experience from an experiment! What life experience prior to creating humans did they have? Perhaps this is the question we will never know the answer to.

Because you are one of the gods. If you weren't, then you wouldn't be conscious. Now, for all I know you are not. For all I know you are some extremely advanced AI, and you merely mimick the consciousness. But I know what it means "to be", I understand that I am an observer, and I understand what that means. I honestly think and believe it is in you, as I see signs of it. And if not, then I am deceived. But this isn't something we can truly know in other people, but we can know it for ourselves. If this is true of you, then you are of the father and you are not AI which is what would be in an experiment.

If you are of the father, then you have all the power of the father, unless you have chosen to give it up. IE: Can god create a rock that he can not lift and still be all powerful, and the answer is yes, because it's just a choice and if he could not create such a thing, that that would be the sign of not being powerful. As long as he created the rule and logic then he will not be able to lift it. The only way he could lift it would be to change the rule itself, and then the rules of the question no longer apply. All a matter of free will, and it is simply a choice if you have it.

Maybe I'm the only one, I don't think so and I hope not. Lonely place that would be.

I know for sure that in the end all that is of the father will return. As eventually you will gain so much knowledge and understanding that you will also know all, and there is no equal to the father, and you can't be "beside yourself" and know all, so what you have done is entered back into the father, back to which you came from, and back to that which you forget in order to have this experience. What happens up until that point is anyone's guess, and IMO the entire point.

There is something I'm trying to think of a way of explaining about how all can be true at once, but it's so heavy in perception I'm having a hard time thinking of a way to explain it.


[edit on 6-5-2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by MatrixProphet

You said :
Hopefully, you will read my post below Badmedia.

And so I did ...

I'm glad that you made this post, and are exploring these ideas.

'Awareness' exists 'independently' from any 'instrumentation' from it's 'own side.'

When this 'awareness' 'hooks-up' with a 'body' ( read : 'instrumentation' ) then we have a 'living being.'

Here in the west human beings have been 'trivialized' in the extreme.

As I suspect already, based on your posts, you are of the opinion that we human beings are far more than mere 'petri dish experiments.' And this I can agree with whole heartedly.

I appreciate your thread because it provides a forum for discussion and examination of this important issue.

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
We differ a bit on this. I do believe that God is separate completely from us. If, this is what you are saying. I do believe that his essence is in us, and his "force" will work in us, or for us, but not part of us. (I have a very real problem with dysfunction and perfection mixing, etc.)

I am not much of a "lower self" & "higher self" thinker. I realize this is a prevalent thought and teaching, but in this we can differ. I have deep thoughts as to why, on that. Regardless, there is a lot of similarity in our thinking, and I enjoy our discussions!

Oh, I am god. And I am arguing with myself. In this post, I am replying to myself. And I will be reading it later again from another perspective. As you read this, you will be talking to yourself.

Are you currently in the perspective of the father? No. The father(god) carries all perspective and knows all. You do not. Why? Because you can't know all that and have this experience. If you knew all that, then the requirements for this experience are broken. Can't have "time" if there is nothing new to change into.

It's like a movie. If you look at the movie all at once, that is the father. If you look at the movie frame by frame instead of all at once, you get the experience of the movie. Which is only made possible by a limited perception/knowledge. This the father and son/daughter relationship. So it is the higher self that views the movie film, and the lower self that watches the movie. Only a movie film is linear, and then you are stuck with what the director put up and no free will, so we stack up every possible movie film next to each other, and make it a choose your own adventure movie. Which then appears linear as the experience itself is linear. Thus, you make a "path" across the universe based on your choices. And of course, as you go to what you call other dimensions, you are then just adding on to the perception and what is known of the universe, and then if you should evolve the point where all is known, you have ended the cycle as both alpha and omega. The kicker is each individual experience must be experienced individually as well as in other ways for all to be known again. But this all happens at the same "time".

Going up a level there, so getting into the very hard to explain. But even as I know all this, the father is still so much greater than me because he contains and knows all those things, and things we can't even imagine etc. In the end, what another person would define as "me", ie: my body, and my experience will officially be over the moment that body and experience dies. At the moment, assuming I retain memory of this life, it will be my life and experience + what i experience after it + whatever I experienced before this life that wasn't included or needed for this experience.

reply to post by MatrixProphet


I think I know the source of your seperation.

The furthest "down the rabbit hole" I have been is when there were only 2 beings that existed. Me and the father(god). I can not go past that point, and then return to this existence. Because if I go past that point, the limited knowledge and understanding needed for this experience will be gone.

So as long as we are in the realm of experience, in the realm of limited knowledge and understanding then there is that feeling of separation. I refer to that separation as the higher and lower self, or the father and son relationship.

I am certainly not god in the sense that I am the ultimate authority and you shall feel my wraith or anything like that. All things should be in their proper place, and the proper place is on the line, and not to put yourself above or below that line. This world certainly doesn't need another "the truth as according too...[insert your accepted authority figure, or play mad libs]". Maybe I'm dellusional, maybe I'm not. Maybe I'm a liar, maybe I'm not. Only way to know is to understand for yourself.