Chemtrail believers, I challenge you to debunk contrail science

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posted on Apr, 30 2009 @ 07:09 PM
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Im starting this thread because my other one was closed after several hundred posts, with very few replies challengin the opening. Ive put forward a few socratic type questions with explanations of the known science before them.

Contrail Formation
Contrails are formed when hot exhaust (comprised of water, CO2, CO and dust), from an aircraft engine condenses, causing the surrounding air to become saturated. The water vapour quickly sublimates into ice crystals (skipping the transformation to liquid), causing a visible trail.

Socratic Questions
1. Explain how hot exhaust can not create ice crystals, in a supercooled environment

Contrail Persistance
In some cases, depending on atmospheric conditions, contrails are able to linger for hours, and in other cases, just a few minutes. Persistent contrails will linger when the input of water vapour causes the surrounding atmosphere to become superstaurated.

Supersaturation occurs frequently, when an already moist upper atmosphere, has more water water added to it, like the vapour from a jet engine. By doing this, the ice crystals in the air become larger, as rapid crystalisation occurs, creating a larger contrail. In many cases, the trail will trigger a growth of cloud, creating a layer of cirrostratus

Socratic Questions
1. Explain why supersaturation will not occur

2. Explain how contrails will not form a cloud layer

3. Explain why contrails will not persist

Chemtrail Ideas
Just some ideas put forward by chemtrail believers, which have not been explained, and some questions I have

Socratic Questions
1. If the government allegedly are spraying nasties at such a height, why would they not do something easier like poisioning a drinking water supply?

2. Explain how something being sprayed at such a height, defies all logic (and winds), and somehow reaches the ground below where it is originally released from?

3. Some chemtrail websites claim that the phenomenen has been occuring since the nineties. Explain why persistent contrails exist in pictures since from before 1920, and why contrail science existed far before the chemtrail theory was even thought of?

4. Explain why almost every meteorologist in the world knows nothing about upper atmosphere, and the population of chemtrail believers (including rense cliff carnicom and david icke), is more knowlegeble on meteorology than those trained in the science.

So, hopefully these questions are easily understandable, and I look forward to hearing some of the replies.

Also, please stay on topic.....I do not want to hear why myself or others are disinformation agents, or anything along those lines.




posted on Apr, 30 2009 @ 07:29 PM
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You really must not watch them do it huh? Cirrus clouds don't form in 70+ degree weather I'm sorry, and when you see them spraying while a normal non-spraying plane is flying at the same time with a normal contrail, it disappears behind it and so does the skepticism. The government can release bio-agents and MKULTRA tests on us, but they can't do this? Look up bill HR2977.

Under Section 7, Definitions, it states in part:

In this Act:

(1) The term `space' means all space extending upward from an altitude greater than 60 kilometers above the surface of the earth and any celestial body in such space.
(2)(A) The terms `weapon' and `weapons system' mean a device capable of any of the following:

And:

(B) Such terms include exotic weapons systems such as:

(i) electronic, psychotronic, or information weapons;
(ii) chemtrails;
(iii) high altitude ultra low frequency weapons systems;
(iv) plasma, electromagnetic, sonic, or ultrasonic weapons;
(v) laser weapons systems;
(vi) strategic, theater, tactical, or extraterrestrial weapons; and,
(vii) chemical, biological, environmental, climate, or tectonic weapons

A revised version of this bill was then introduced and given a new number: H.R. 3616 submitted January 23, 2002. While most of the bill remains the same, there were changes made, i.e., (2)(A) under 'In this Act' in the original version was changed to:

(2) The terms `space-based weapon' and `space-based system' mean a device capable of damaging or destroying an object or person (whether in outer space, in the atmosphere, or on earth) by--

In this new version, all of (B) has been eliminated.

A third version of the bill, H.R. 3657 was introduced December 8, 2003. The bill remains virtually the same except for Section 7, In this Act (1), the distance of 60 kilometers in the first two version was extended to 110 kilometers. 60 kilometers is 37.28 miles and 100 kilometers is 68 miles.



posted on Apr, 30 2009 @ 07:36 PM
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Originally posted by watchtheashes
You really must not watch them do it huh? Cirrus clouds don't form in 70+ degree weather


So you think that just because the weather at the surface is 70 degrees F, then the temperature at 30 odd thousand feet will be the same? Your lack of knowledge is already apparent. And for your information, I do work at a meteorlogical office (almost all met offices across the world are located at airports), and part of my duty list is to observe the sky every half hour to send ut METARS (meteorlogical avaition reports), so yes, I have observed contrails being made



I'm sorry, and when you see them spraying while a normal non-spraying plane is flying at the same time with a normal contrail, it disappears behind it and so does the skepticism.


So, if you believe this, debunk the science I posted in the opening



posted on Apr, 30 2009 @ 07:37 PM
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Chemtrail believers, I challenge you to debunk contrail science


This is a strange challenge. Why do you want to debunk contrails?
what does that prove about chemtrails?
Chemtrails are a fact, perhaps not in they way they are frequently described, but atmospheric conditioning and weather modification are real.

just plug aerosol campaign into your search engine.

Hell, its out in the open, you just aren't seeing it.


John Holdren told The Associated Press in his first interview since being confirmed last month that the idea of geoengineering the climate is being discussed. One such extreme option includes shooting pollution particles into the upper atmosphere to reflect the sun's rays. Holdren said such an experimental measure would only be used as a last resort.
Link



posted on Apr, 30 2009 @ 07:40 PM
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Originally posted by Smack
This is a strange challenge. Why do you want to debunk contrails?
what does that prove about chemtrails?


I dont want to debunk contrails, I want the chemtrail believers to attempt to debunk the science behind contrail formation. As of yet, I have failed to see them able to do this.



Hell, its out in the open, you just aren't seeing it.


Check what I do for a living in the above post, hopefully this explains why I dont believe in chemtrails

Just to add, we dont need to shoot particles into the upper atmosphere to deflect the suns rays, lingering contrails in the atmosphere, which are comprised of ice reflect enough by themselves.

Ever wondered why the differences between the minimum and maximum temperatures arent much during cloudy days and nights? Its because clouds deflect incoming radiation during the day, and trap it in during the night, therefore the temperature does not vary significantly



[edit on 30/4/2009 by OzWeatherman]



posted on Apr, 30 2009 @ 07:41 PM
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reply to post by OzWeatherman
 


Lack of knowledge is something unbelievers have my friend. I didn't have to provide any scientific proof of anything. I provided a bill that says they can do it. This may be your position, but the governments position is we all should die. Really man, I know temperatures up there are way colder, but how do you explain the no cloud days and the chemtrails that form clouds. When the natural clouds do come in for that day if any they look WAY different. The horizon almost looks brown sometimes when they do it.

[edit on 30-4-2009 by watchtheashes]

[edit on 30-4-2009 by watchtheashes]



posted on Apr, 30 2009 @ 07:50 PM
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And yet another ozweatherman thread on the same denial of chemtrails.

What are the ATS rules for posting repeat threads?

this is getting ridiculous!

wZn



posted on Apr, 30 2009 @ 07:51 PM
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Originally posted by watchtheashes
reply to post by OzWeatherman
 


Lack of knowledge is something unbelievers have my friend. I didn't have to provide any scientific proof of anything.


How so? I provided information on why contrails form and persist, yet the only challenge you came up with was providing a bill that was not passed in the US senate. (Someone has verification on that, I just cant remember who)



Really man, I know temperatures up there are way colder, but how do you explain the no cloud days and the chemtrails that form clouds.


First of all, you didnt state that in your first post, did you forget? Secondly, what are clouds made from? The answer is water, in vapour or visible from condensation of water droplets or ice crystals. There is always a value of humidity in the air, wether its visible or not, contrails simply add more water to the air, increasing the humidity making condensation extremely likely



When the natural clouds do come in for that day if any they look WAY different. The horizon almost looks brown sometimes when they do it.


Perhaps you could post some pictures of these clouds, again, one of my tasks at work is to identify the clouds in the area, as they can be useful forecasting tools



posted on Apr, 30 2009 @ 07:54 PM
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reply to post by OzWeatherman
 





I dont want to debunk contrails, I want the chemtrail believers to attempt to debunk the science behind contrail formation. As of yet, I have failed to see them able to do this.


well, forgive me for saying so, but that's just dumb. Who is denying the existence of contrails? I just don't get it.

Do you admit that weather modification is real? e.g. cloud seeding, atmospheric condensates. Can you say positively, with full and perfect knowledge that our government is not spraying at anytime, anywhere?



posted on Apr, 30 2009 @ 08:04 PM
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Why would chemtrail believers even want to debunk contrail science? Sorry, but I fail to see the link, this is apples and oranges territory and this whole thread seems a bit surreal to me.

Besides, from my limited understanding of the subject there seems to be a lot of evidence of covert operations being done with, at the very least, a focus on weather manipulation.

Again, what would these operations have to do with contrails? And if they are just a (sub)urban myth, why would anyone want to focus on negating contrails to deny chemtrails?

You might have a point, but I'll be darned if I see it.



posted on Apr, 30 2009 @ 08:08 PM
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Agree with above poster. Why debunk contrails when they both are happening without question? It's if they're poisonous that is the real question. Barium man barium.

www.ghchealth.com...




posted on Apr, 30 2009 @ 08:09 PM
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Originally posted by Smack
Do you admit that weather modification is real? e.g. cloud seeding, atmospheric condensates. Can you say positively, with full and perfect knowledge that our government is not spraying at anytime, anywhere?


Weather modification is real, just not in the form of contrails. Cloud seeding is done at much lower levels, in clouds such as cumulus and altosratus, which are considered rain bearing clouds. These clouds NEED to be present to for cloud seeding to be done. Cloud seeding pretty much occurs the way contrails form, by nuclei clinging on to water or ice particles in the clouds, growing the size of the water droplet, therefore creating precipitation

I can say with a 100% certainty that the government is not releasing chemicals from planes. Maybe they are dropping chemicals into a town water supply or tainting food sources, both of which are much more easily done and the effectiveness is far greater



posted on Apr, 30 2009 @ 08:16 PM
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I guess the question then becomes "why should anyone take your 100% certainty in the the face of such illogical thread creations?"

Besides, if there exists cloud seeding, and governments are doing it, they are doing so by releasing chemicals from planes. If they aren't telling the population it makes sense that a lot of people are getting pissed about it. The "chemtrail" designation is a very loose term, a lot of situations fit under it. I've lurked here a while and you do seem like a bit of the serial debunker OzWeatherman, which makes me wonder about your motives.

Meh, not important. Have a nice thread!



posted on Apr, 30 2009 @ 08:18 PM
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Originally posted by WarmthofSunlight
Why would chemtrail believers even want to debunk contrail science? Sorry, but I fail to see the link, this is apples and oranges territory and this whole thread seems a bit surreal to me.


Well, most chemtrail threads consist of someone posting an image of a contrail and labelling it as a trail of chemicals released by the government. Other come on and say that its just a normal contrail. Pretty much the point of this is to see if anyone calling these trails, chemtrails, is able to debunk the science which proves that they are ordinary contrails.

Another way of looking at it is if you can disprove the science behind the formation of contrails, then maybe the chemtrail theory may seem more plausible to those of us that do not believe in them

Understand?



posted on Apr, 30 2009 @ 08:25 PM
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The thing is most of the alleged chemtrail pictures that seem credible are brownish and contrails are white, because they are ice particles. Discarding the dubious sunrise and sunset pictures I simply don't believe they are the same thing. Plus a lot of them actually get thicker, denser in some of the time lapse photography I've seen.

Sorry, but it still dosen't compute. To me they all look like cloud seeding, which brings up more questions than it answers, the big one being WHY?



posted on Apr, 30 2009 @ 08:31 PM
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What is to debunk? I have seen contrails for 50 years and understood
how they were created for 40 of those years.

On the other hand there have been tests of material from the fallout
of said chemtrails and the gov. has admitted to weather modification
but not to the degree of said mods.

By the way. How are things going in the area of weather guessing?



posted on Apr, 30 2009 @ 08:38 PM
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reply to post by OzWeatherman
 


I'm really not following why debunking the contrail science is relevant. Nor am I following why you just don't accept it. Maybe they don't do it over your city, but if its a major population center they definitely do. Here in Colorado the planes from the Air Force Base do it all the time usually until 12 noon from 7 am. Sometimes they do it over the city, other times over the mountains. I live within 10 miles from NORAD. They do it here often. I will post pictures of them in action if I can get it or rather when. That will be a seperate thread though. These planes move much faster, sometimes flying straight up and you can follow the chemical trail with it. No normal plane would follow such strange paths nor move at the speeds they do to do it.



posted on Apr, 30 2009 @ 10:19 PM
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reply to post by watchtheashes
 


watchtheashes, nothing you have written makes any sense.

In fact, how is it that you, and some of the other 'chemtrail' believers get so many 'stars'???

Folks....Oz studies weather. I know Aviation and, as a result, basic Meteorology.

'ashes', you live in Colorado....based on your description, Ft. Collins. I used to live in Denver. Ermmm....you DO know the 'zoomies' are there in Ft. Collins, right? Oh, sorry...the USAF Academy, the fly-boys-in-blue!!

SO, why in the heck would "they" (the secret society of poisoners) wish to 'poison' that area??? Not logical, but, of course, 'chemtrail' fanatics don't often use logic, nor science -- it's more of a religion, to them.

The various disciplines get mixed up, and it is similar to just about every mis-conception that promulgates (infects) the Internet.

Cloud-seeding? Done to hopefully cause rain to fall. No other reason, and it is conducted in cumulous clouds. Cumulous do NOT form at 30,000 feet. Jets flying that high sometimes make contrails. Not always. Sometimes contrails persist. Not always.

And, for anyone who believes that something sprayed up and above 30,000 feet will affect anything directly below, then that person is woefully misinformed. Take a look, for instance, at upper-level wind patterns in the United States. Look at isobar charts, upper-level Progs, just about anything....or, stay ignorant and deny knowledge.

In fact, new ATS slogan: "Deny Knowledge!"



posted on Apr, 30 2009 @ 10:24 PM
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Yeah I'm very aware that the flyboys are here. However, these are not normal maneuvers for any plane. It's like they deliberately cross the trails to condense them into bigger clouds.



posted on Apr, 30 2009 @ 10:31 PM
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Okay maybe theres a middle ground option to all of this? Yes, the science behind contrails is fact. This doesn't mean that theres no such thing as chemtrails, however, that may behave in the same manner as a normal contrail would in certain conditions.

Also, I don't think the chemtrails are intentionally meant to harm us, but the aluminum and silver dust is a reflectant meant to repel some of the harmful radiation from our sun, as a kind of "ozone band-aid." The harmful effects of the spray on human health is probably looked at as an unfortunate but necessary side-effect to saving the planet. However, I don't know for certain and neither does anyone here.





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