Will A Flat Earth Creationist Explain This To me?, page 1

reply to post by swolleneyeball

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There are actually flat Earthers still around??? And better yet I thought creationism was a different beast. Sounds to me like another attempt to attack creationists. The word strawman comes to mind.

[edit on 18-4-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

reply to post by ChemBreather

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No no no. It's a pebble stuck in that giant blue fishbowl up there. Or if you want to view it from a Ancient Egyptian view the breast of the sky lady?

reply to post by swolleneyeball

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Why can you set a sphere on the level ground and not have it start rolling? For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. The earth is moving, why does a sphere which is not biased to "lay on a side", not start rolling the opposite direction the earth is moving?

If the curve of the earth lies at around 25 miles, why can we see things that are hundreds of miles away through a telescope?

Why did the meaning of Gravity change from "weight" to something that doesn't exist?

Why do objects get smaller as they move away from you?

Why do rainbows bend like a dome?

Why can't you feel the earth rotating, but you can feel the earth quake?

Why does lava come up from the core if the core is what is holding everything down?

How can there be a full moon in the sky with the sun sometimes and not others when our vantage point doesn't change? (don't worry about answering that one, everyone has already along with pictures, but thanks)

Why are the sun and moon the same size perspective wise and why don't they appear oblong like a football since we are viewing them through the arc of the atmosphere? Try looking through a magnifying glass at something, it is distorted until you get right up on the object. Why isn't the Sun, Moon, or stars completely distorted through the arc of the sky?

What are the advantages to be gained by church and state, stating the earth is round and floats in the middle of a vast universe that no one could even begin to wrap ones mind around being so enormous? What advantages come by telling people that what they see isn't right such as the sun moon and stars traversing in the sky as apposed to outside of it?

Think about it from that vantage point. How can people be controlled by government, if they the people believe that they are it, the supreme masters of reality? They can't, so you tell them they are nothing in such a vast universe. You do this for one or more generations providing evidence that no one can see feel or experience themselves outside of a video or broadcast and you have a nation of people that will believe anything you say, as long as it is on the TV.

It used to be, that men would find out for themselves what the truth is having no opinion, nor garnering one until they themselves could say it was so, having been witness themselves. This was called "your word". It was at one time, the only contract needed between folks and they could give their word having proved it's worth meaning you didn't say something was so if you had not been a part of it. That didn't mean you denied someone else their experience, it meant that unless you were a part of the thing being validated, you didn't comment on it having no ground to do so (regardless of your personal opinion).

Is the world flat? I don't see how it couldn't be, but until I see the sphere of the earth myself, I don't have the right to say it is a sphere...I walk on flat ground, I float on flat water, I sleep flat, I write on flat pieces of paper, I build out of flat pieces of wood, I press my cloths flat and I read time on a flat clock.

Only 3 dimensions exist, Length (flat), width (flat) and breadth (flat) all which exist as one together called Time. I can say this having experienced the three in one as can everyone else.

It is so bad today, that people know more about space, which they have never gone to, then they do about their own families 3 or more generations past who without those distant strangers, none of us would be here. People don't even know where they came from, but they are experts on things they have never done...sounds backwards to me.

Anyway, sorry about the rant. I'm still out on wither this earth is sphere or flat. I lean towards flat, because it is logical and has consequences. On a globe floating in nothing with no up or down, you need a "special theory of relativity" because nothing is relative.

It's like placing Olympians from the regular Olympics with Olympians from the Special Olympics in competition against each other. The only thing relative is the word Olympian. No matter how many times the "special" Olympians loose, we will always pander to them because they are "special", even the Regular Olympians will praise them. Win or loose has no barring, only that they did it, do we praise them. It is the same with the theory so special to everyone. It is still a theory, meaning it hasn't won, but we still praise the little guy for trying anyway. Who knows, maybe the real world will forget to tie it's shoelaces before the next race and our "special" little guy will be the big winner.

One last thing, please don't crucify me. I didn't see any pro flat people responding, so I thought I would. I've already seen some of the posts mocking people who believe otherwise. I am putting myself out there and only ask for your mutual respect. I don't think anyone is "stupid" for thinking differently then I do, so please...In the words of Ali G...Respect.

Peace

[edit on 18-4-2009 by letthereaderunderstand]

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by swolleneyeball

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There are actually flat Earthers still around??? And better yet I thought creationism was a different beast. Sounds to me like another attempt to attack creationists. The word strawman comes to mind.

[edit on 18-4-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

"Voliva remarked that William Jennings Bryan in the Scopes trial 'doesn't go far enough in his fundamentalist belief. . . . If Bryan repudiates modern theories of biology, he ought to repudiate modern theories of geolgy and astronomy as we do." Wilbur Glenn Voliva, 2nd leader of the Zion colony, Illinois, USA. (Quoted in Flat Earth: The History of an Infamous Idea by Christine Garwood.

So, not a strawman.

This man should clear up some questions for you.
He claims the world is only 6000 years old, and he actually Debunks evolusion pretty good too.

Originally posted by ChemBreather
This man should clear up some questions for you.
He claims the world is only 6000 years old, and he actually Debunks evolusion pretty good too.

YouTube Link

Ah, so debunking is okay here? Good. Because Hovind's theories are simply bizarre. A blanket of water floating over the Earth's surface? So we could live without sunlight before the flood?

reply to post by letthereaderunderstand

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The sphere is moving with the Earth, as are you. Get in a bus with your ball. When the bus is going 40 mph, put the ball on the floor of the bus. Does the ball roll to the back of the bus?

The distance to the horizon depends on your elevation above the surface, because the world is round. The lower you are, the closer the horizon. When your eye level is 6 feet, the horizon is about 3 miles away. When your eye level is 100 feet, the horizon is about 14 miles away. From 10,000 feet it is 134 miles. The higher you get, the more distant the horizon and the more distant objects on the surface you can see. From the surface, you cannot see things which are on the Earth's "surface" which are hundreds of miles away. You can see things which are above the Earth's surface (mountains for example) because they project above the horizon.

I don't know what gravity has to do with a flat Earth but Isaac Newton proposed gravitation as a force of attraction between two masses. He came up with the name for the force. Before that, the word "gravity" did not exist. It did not then, nor does it now, mean "weight".

What does perspective (distant objects appearing smaller) have to do with a flat Earth?

What does the shape of a rainbow have to do with the shape of the Earth? It is due to the refraction angle of light through water.

You can't feel the Earth rotating because you are rotating along with it (see above).

Lava does not come from the core of the Earth, it comes from the within the upper part of the Earth's mantle. It rises to the surface because it is less dense than the material which surrounds it. Like a bubble in a lava lamp.

What do the relative sizes of the Sun and Moon have to do with the shape of the Earth? The "curve" of the atmosphere is very much less than the curve of a magnifying glass and the refractive index of air is very much less than that of glass. The atmosphere does distort the sky but not enough that you would notice.

[edit on 4/18/2009 by Phage]

reply to post by For(Home)Country

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"It seems as if everyone things creationists tend to defy and disbelieve everything modern science has accomplished and proven."

Taken as a whole, science does a good job of debunking creationism, so if you believe the whole universe was "created", you have to dismiss most of science to stay true to your beliefs.

reply to post by Phage

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Phage I always respect you, but you need to look gravity up unless you are older then 500 years.

Gravity
1509, "weight, dignity, seriousness," from L. gravitatem (nom. gravitas) "weight, heaviness, pressure," from gravis "heavy" (see grave (adj.)). The scientific sense of "force that gives weight to objects" first recorded 1641. Gravitate is first recorded 1692.

How could Newton of come up with the word when it existed 100 years before him?

I understand why it would be that the curve would be farther out the higher up you get, but that doesn't explain why things get small as they go away from you eventually disappearing out of your site and couldn't that just as easily explain why things "go over the horizon". By the way Horizon doesn't mean what you think it means either.

Horizon
c.1374, from O.Fr. orizon (14c.), earlier orizonte (13c.), from L. horizontem (nom. horizon), from Gk. horizon kyklos "bounding circle," from horizein "bound, limit, divide, separate," from horos "boundary." The h- was restored 17c. in imitation of Latin. Horizontal (1555) originally meant "relating to or near the horizon," later (1638) parallel to it, "flat."

Peace


Thanks for the Heads up Phage, let me know if those links are cool.

Peace

[edit on 18-4-2009 by letthereaderunderstand]

reply to post by letthereaderunderstand

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Look, there is an ABUNDANCE of evidence that the earth is in fact spherical, I don't need to give you a history lesson about that.

But according to your logic, we would fall off the end if we were to go to it, there is no "end" of the earth, it simply keeps going, on a flat surface you would either need to walk along the edge and then underneath to get to where you originally started.

Second, every other body from stars to planets to other moons are round, we see photos of them all the time, what possible excuse would there be for us to be taught the earth is round if it is in fact flat?

Your logic doesn't explain how a plane can go around the world without going into space or having to turn around, on a flat plane you would need to, or you would go through the atmosphere on the opposite end of where you started.

Also in a flat earth scenario there would be no need to angle shuttles at a specific degree in order to get them to orbit, you could just simply fly straight up and there you would be.

There are many things that you leave unexplained, for the simple reason that you are wrong, and the earth is a sphere, regardless of what religious dogma tells you otherwise.

~Keeper

reply to post by letthereaderunderstand

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As I said, Newton was the first to use the word gravity as applied to a physical phenomenon. Did you read what you pasted (Where's the link, BTW? Quoting an external source without credit or link is frowned upon)? As your own uncredited quote says, "The scientific sense of 'force that gives weight to objects'". Not "weight", but "the force that gives weight."

Our word gravity and its more precise derivative gravitation come from the Latin word gravitas, from gravis (heavy), which in turn comes from a still more ancient root word thought to have existed because of numerous cognates in related languages. For example, compare the Old English word grafan (grave), the Old Slavic pogreti (to bury), the Sanskrit guru (weighty, venerable), and Greek barus (heavy, grievous) among others. These words have common meanings of heaviness, importance, seriousness, dignity, grimness; the modern, physical sense of a field of attraction did not appear until Newton's time. Indeed, for Galileo, Newton, and scientists up to the beginning of the twentieth century, gravity was no more than an empty name for the phenomenon, a fact that they were well aware of.

einstein.stanford.edu...

How does a flat Earth explain why things appear to get smaller as they get farther away?

You obviously have never been anywhere near the ocean, or at least never seen a ship sailing away. You've must never seen the hull of the ship disappear behind the horizon while its sails are still visible. Or is it slowly falling over the edge? Strange the way edge is farther away for someone standing on a hill. Strange how they can see the whole ship while the person on the beach can only see the top of the mast, even though the person on the beach is closer to the ship.

I know exactly what horizon means. It is the visual separation between the sky and the ground/sea. And yes, part of the meaning of horizontal has to do with flatness. That is because the horizon appears to be flat (until you get high enough).

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by letthereaderunderstand

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The sphere is moving with the Earth, as are you. Get in a bus with your ball. When the bus is going 40 mph, put the ball on the floor of the bus. Does the ball roll to the back of the bus?

Absolutely, the ball rolls back and not only does the ball roll back, I can feel the bus moving, even though I am moving with it. Even dogs know this, but they are to busy trying to stick there heads out the window to care.

I don't know what gravity has to do with a flat Earth but Isaac Newton proposed gravitation as a force of attraction between two masses. He came up with the name for the force. Before that, the word "gravity" did not exist. It did not then, nor does it now, mean "weight".

Covered that one from www.etymonline.com...

What does perspective (distant objects appearing smaller) have to do with a flat Earth?

What does Horizon have to do with a spherical earth?

What does the shape of a rainbow have to do with the shape of the Earth? It is due to the refraction angle of light through water.

How is it refracting, as a wave or as a particle? You never found it strange that all those simultaneous refractions perfectly line up to form a bow, instead of a strait line or better yet a kaleidoscope of colors?

You can't feel the Earth rotating because you are rotating along with it (see above).

Ok, I'm jumping up into the air going west with my Jordans strapped tight and because I'm wearing Jordans I can hang in the air for an hour. The earth should move underneath me should it not? Is it that the second I jump up the 1000 mile per hour air that is traveling with the earth, will pull me in the air too at that velocity? Wouldn't the second I jump up, the air that I don't notice because I'm traveling with it, then become apparent to me as a 1000 mile per hour gust that I am jumping against?

Lava does not come from the core of the Earth, it comes from the within the upper part of the Earth's mantle. It rises to the surface because it is less dense than the material which surrounds it. Like a bubble in a lava lamp.

Not sure where you are getting that from, but you can do a simple experiment to show you how lava comes up and why. Get a teapot and fill it with water then set it on the core of your stove.

Wait a few minutes. When the teapot begins boiling, the pressure inside of the pot built up because of the air being hotter inside than outside, will cause it's equilibrium to be thrown and the pot will begin pushing its contents out in the form of vapor so that it may return to it's relaxed state.

It is the same with lava. If you cork the teapot, you can expect it to behave exactly like a volcano. When the pressure builds up high enough it will force the cork out of the spout the same way a caldera does its dome. This is my understanding at least, though I could be wrong.

Another way to look at it is if you got an arterial cut. The blood wouldn't just empty out, it would jet out in streams with the pressure built up from the beat of your heart palpitating, until you turned cold from loosing all that blood. Same with the earth, it even bleeds red. It's all the same in perspective and that is why I don't see the earth being a sphere, round maybe, a sphere, can't see it. The only things spherical are "Void and without form"...like, like an embryo, don't go making it your Baal. It is here for you, not you for it.

What do the relative sizes of the Sun and Moon have to do with the shape of the Earth? The "curve" of the atmosphere is very much less than the curve of a magnifying glass and the refractive index of air is very much less than that of glass. The atmosphere does distort the sky but not enough that you would notice.

This makes no sense and here is why. This relates to the horizon, as understood by everyone to mean "the fall off point of the earth" or that is what I gather everyone believes it to mean...not falling off the earth, just falling out of sight. For eases sake, lets make this model of me sitting in a boat on the ocean. No matter which way I look, at 25 miles out, I can't see "over" the horizon. Directly above me is the ceiling of the earth at what 700 miles or something like that, meaning that at my horizon in all directions the atmosphere is 25 miles lower to my vantage point then directly over my head and you don't think that wouldn't cause a serious refraction strong enough to distort the sun moon and stars being 3.5% drop in total atmosphere? The sky which is so reflective that it literally can turn black space into baby blue light doesn't have enough refractive index to seriously alter images from outside of it's sphere?

I'm no genius, we all know that, but Micro to Macro it is all the same. All I ask people to do is consider for one moment how much power is held literally over there heads in the form of knowledge that is only attainable in numbers or theory, unless you are one of the lucky eight people from earth. Eight out of 6.5 billion, we rely on truth from eight people and our government, that has lied to us about every thing from WW1 forward, they're own people. Remember NASA formally Naca is a Department of Defense program and not for the public, never has been. Keep an open mind, because perhaps everything that glitters is not gold. We'll be lucky if it is even Pyrite.

That's all, thanks again Phage

Peace

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by letthereaderunderstand

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Look, there is an ABUNDANCE of evidence that the earth is in fact spherical, I don't need to give you a history lesson about that.

But according to your logic, we would fall off the end if we were to go to it, there is no "end" of the earth, it simply keeps going, on a flat surface you would either need to walk along the edge and then underneath to get to where you originally started.

Ok, first thing to remember. I said that I was still out on wither or not the earth is a sphere. I actually prefer the growing earth theory, but that is not what this is about. Honestly, I just didn't see any pro flat earthers saying anything and thought maybe it would be cool to get that perspective also for you guys. I don't know exactly what I believe just now, only that many things we are taught simply don't add up for me....for me...and only me.

Phage helps me a lot in these kinds of forums and I always feel safe when I see him. I knew if he was in here, I wouldn't be treated like an idiot, even thought the poor guy has probably answered the same question from me to many times to count. With that said, let me get to your questions.

I don't remember saying anywhere that you cold fall off and that is not according to my logic. I just had mentioned a "fall off point" for a spherical earth, but believe I clarified myself pretty well stating, "you don't actually fall off, but fall out of sight". I believe this is how everyone is terming "Horizon"...the fall off point from line of site.

Second, every other body from stars to planets to other moons are round, we see photos of them all the time, what possible excuse would there be for us to be taught the earth is round if it is in fact flat?

You just nailed it sir thank you. Photos, videos, movies, film, slides, mp4's, panoramics, CGI representations and animations, Radio telescopes, Hubble images, Chandra Images, images, images, images....that is seriously all I need to convince anyone of anything I'm finding out. I guess stars really do care about there images.

I believe that we are told the earth is a sphere floating in a vacuum (I don't think people remember what vacuums do) simply to make people feel trapped and worthless on top of being nothing in comparison to the awesomeness of the vastness of the huge and ever expanding universes that are 46 billion light years away in a 13.6 billion year old universe. Simply to make you feel helpless and insignificant. It cuts off your true potential as a creator.

If you are saying that you can see the 3d surface of a sphere meaning the whole sphere, not just one side, from millions of miles away, I'd have to say I don't believe you. If you are saying you see it in photos, I believe you, but not the images, which unfortunately also ruins your credibility. Now if you say, I will go there and find out, and I send you off and receive you back, I will believe what you tell me having a relationship with you (gotta trust at some time). I have no relationship to images nor statements, only living credible beings that I know I can trust having not given me a reason to distrust them and myself of course, that is my own two eyes.

Your logic doesn't explain how a plane can go around the world without going into space or having to turn around, on a flat plane you would need to, or you would go through the atmosphere on the opposite end of where you started.

My logic doesn't speak, just me Seriously though, I wasn't asked that until now, so I will answer you with another question. How does a plane cut time flying from New York to London? Don't they fly North and arc over rather then fly strait across the ocean? It cuts time and is actually shorter to go north as opposed to flying directly there? Tell me how this is impossible on a flat earth? We don't fly into space to do what I just discribed, it actually works on both models. I believe flat earthers see the world like a pancake if I'm not mistaken (being flat and all). I think they believe Ice blocks the passage or something like that, but either way it works on both models.

Also in a flat earth scenario there would be no need to angle shuttles at a specific degree in order to get them to orbit, you could just simply fly straight up and there you would be.

Ok, I think you answered your own question here, but I will take a shot. I see this exactly opposite. The shuttle never goes into "space" first of all, just a really high altitude. I never really saw the earth as flat, but more like a corkscrew or better yet, an Archimedes Screw. You know how an Archimedes screw works right? I picture it as being like that, hence tides and such. I picture the center shaft with the sun attached and the moon on the wall with the land floating in the water being drawn up the pump. That's the best I can describe it. Like when you see a satellites path. In flat world it looks like a sine wave...if that makes sense? Orbit is nothing more then going down the slide at the play ground or like Helter Skelter, when I get to the bottom I go back to the top of the slide....you know the rest.

There are many things that you leave unexplained, for the simple reason that you are wrong, and the earth is a sphere, regardless of what religious dogma tells you otherwise.

Religious Dogma? You mean being to devout to a story that I believe is the truth so much that I would tell others there view is wrong and to accept "the true light" of your knowledge. You are not kidding, talk about faith. Yours is unshakable...Good Job

I leave you with my faith, not as the world gives it do i give it...

TOOL

Choices always were a problem for you,
What you need is someone strong to guide you.

Living blind and dumb and bored to follow,
What you need is someone strong to guide you.

Like me
Like me
Like me
Like me

If you want to you get your soul to heaven,
Trust in me now don't you judge or question,
You are broken now but faith can heal you,
Just do everything I tell you to do.

Living blind and dumb and bored to follow,
What you need is someone strong to guide you.

Living blind and dumb and bored to follow
Let me place my holy hand up hand upon you

My gods will
Becomes me
When he speaks
He speaks to me
He has needs
Like i do
We both want
To race you.

Jesus Christ why don't you come save my life now,
Open my eyes blind me with you life now,
Jesus Christ why don't you come save my life now,
Open my eyes blind me with you life now.

If you want to get your soul to heaven,
Trust in me now don't you judge or question,
You are broken now but faith can heal you,
Just do everything I tell you to do.

Jesus Christ why don't you come save my life now,
Open my eyes blind me with you life now,
Jesus Christ why don't you come save my life now,
Open my eyes blind me with you life now.

Living blind and dumb and bored to follow,
Let me place my holy hand up hand upon you.

My gods will
Becomes me
When he speaks
He speaks to me
He has needs
LIke i do
We both want
To RACE YOU!

I don't want to do what the song originally said, so lets race. Round the world in 80 days old school style?

Peace

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by swolleneyeball

---

There are actually flat Earthers still around??? And better yet I thought creationism was a different beast. Sounds to me like another attempt to attack creationists. The word strawman comes to mind.

[edit on 18-4-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

i mean to specifically quote this to draw attention to it. It has very little to do with creationist, but if you look up the flat earth society they define them selves as flat earth creationist.

i wasn't asking for someone who thought the world was flat from any other religion then that of creationist.

[edit on 10-5-2009 by swolleneyeball]

HEYHEYHEY

Phage and letthereaderunderstand calm down this isnt a argument to be won or lost, it was just a request for some knowledge i recieved that sounded rather bais so i asked.

But unfortunitly letthereaderunderstand i must say i agree with Phage on most areas.

Originally posted by ChemBreather
This man should clear up some questions for you.
He claims the world is only 6000 years old, and he actually Debunks evolusion pretty good too.

YouTube Link

hmm for someone rebuting widely held information he seams to uses comedy and a quick pace alot. And why not let another in the field of anthropology discuss this with him? He doesnt aprear as one correcting misinformation he apears to be preaching. While i admit openly hes both charismatic and charming thats not a reason to believe, im for the most part unskilled in the area of anthropology but he cuts alot information out that "qualifies" other information to be a likly outcome, not "must be this"! more like "very likly this"

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