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Originally posted by mandroid
biofuel production does not require forest preservation
and I would like to know your source for claiming biofuel production is taking precedence over forest preservation. Biofuel has come a long way from corn.
Originally posted by orkson
HE ! you, guys !
The melting of the ice caps and of all the glaciers worldwide is a FACT.
This is the real subject and concern risen by this thread.
Report: Antarctic Ice Growing, Not Shrinking
Saturday, April 18, 2009
Ice is expanding in much of Antarctica, contrary to the widespread public belief that global warming is melting the continental ice cap.
Mount Shasta’s Glaciers Are Growing
July 10, 2008 | CNN
Global warming is melting most of the world’s glaciers. An exception are the glaciers of California’s Mount Shasta.
Glaciers Growing in Norway
November 28, 2008 | Daily Tech
Glaciers in Norway have been shrinking for many years but during the last two years some have been advancing. This trend could be an anomaly.
Glaciers are growing
Mount Shasta’s Glaciers Are Growing July 10, 2008 | CNN Global warming is melting most of the world’s glaciers. An exception are the glaciers of California’s Mount Shasta.
Originally posted by pieman
reply to post by munkey66
yeah, all except the ultra-smart and ultra-informed group that have seen the opposing evidence on the internet.
i mean, come on people, why believe real scientists telling you things which will leave you feeling compelled to stop being such an all encompassing selfish, greedy dumbass when you can feel reassured by two-bit half hearted websites and oil industry sponsored disinformation projects.
wise up, all the climate change we're witnessing is clearly nothing got to do with the atmospheric change we are obviously perpetrating, it's ridiculous to imagine any obvious correlation between dumping tons of gases into the atmosphere and changes to the climate that is regulated to a large degree by that atmosphere.
next you'll be telling me that it is my flatulence that causes the room to stink regardless of the fact that the room has undergone such cycles of stink and non-stick many times in it's past. given that i was not in the room at the time of those other stinks, it is safe to assume, despite the obvious correlation between sound effect and stink, that my flatulence is not the cause of this stink either.
Originally posted by orkson
Telling "Glaciers are growing" is just like if you told "ALL Glaciers are growing" or "MOST of glaciers are growing".
So telling that Glaciers are melting is more ACCURATE than telling that they are growing ...
Originally posted by Shane
So your Quote "The melting of the ice caps and of all the glaciers worldwide is a FACT", is not quite an accurate assessment and I hope you take time to ensure that when you would like to indicate a definative statement, rather than offering a speculative query, your facts, are the facts, and thats all the facts.
Originally posted by melatonin
No real to and fro. It's been known for a while that antarctic sea ice isn't reducing and probably increasing overall.
However, the ice sheet is a different story. So the author is being cute here...
ICE is expanding in much of Antarctica, contrary to the widespread public belief that global warming is melting the continental ice cap
and I think he is with Dr Allison's quotes as well. There are studies that show recent ice mass loss in antarctica.
Published Online March 2, 2006
Science DOI: 10.1126/science.1123785
Science Express Index
Submitted on December 13, 2005
Accepted on February 21, 2006
Measurements of Time-Variable Gravity Show Mass Loss in Antarctica
Isabella Velicogna 1* and John Wahr 2*
1 University of Colorado and CIRES, UCB 390, Boulder, CO 80309-0390, USA; Jet Propulsion Laboratory, California Institute of Technology, Mail Stop 300-233, Pasadena, CA 91109-8099, USA.
2 University of Colorado and CIRES, UCB 390, Boulder, CO 80309-0390, USA.
* To whom correspondence should be addressed.
Isabella Velicogna , E-mail: email@example.com
John Wahr , E-mail: firstname.lastname@example.org
Using measurements of time-variable gravity from the Gravity Recovery and Climate Experiment (GRACE) satellites we determine mass variations of the Antarctic ice sheet during 2002-2005. We find that the ice sheet mass decreased significantly, at a rate of 152 ± 80 km3/year of ice, equivalent to 0.4 ± 0.2 mm/year of global sea level rise. Most of this mass loss came from the West Antarctic Ice Sheet.
Nature Geoscience 1, 106 - 110 (2008)
Published online: 13 January 2008 | doi:10.1038/ngeo102
Subject Categories: Climate science | Cryospheric science
Recent Antarctic ice mass loss from radar interferometry and regional climate modelling
Eric Rignot1,2,3, Jonathan L. Bamber4, Michiel R. van den Broeke5, Curt Davis6, Yonghong Li6, Willem Jan van de Berg5 & Erik van Meijgaard7
Large uncertainties remain in the current and future contribution to sea level rise from Antarctica. Climate warming may increase snowfall in the continent's interior1, 2, 3, but enhance glacier discharge at the coast where warmer air and ocean temperatures erode the buttressing ice shelves4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11. Here, we use satellite interferometric synthetic-aperture radar observations from 1992 to 2006 covering 85% of Antarctica's coastline to estimate the total mass flux into the ocean. We compare the mass fluxes from large drainage basin units with interior snow accumulation calculated from a regional atmospheric climate model for 1980 to 2004. In East Antarctica, small glacier losses in Wilkes Land and glacier gains at the mouths of the Filchner and Ross ice shelves combine to a near-zero loss of 461 Gt yr-1. In West Antarctica, widespread losses along the Bellingshausen and Amundsen seas increased the ice sheet loss by 59% in 10 years to reach 13260 Gt yr-1 in 2006. In the Peninsula, losses increased by 140% to reach 6046 Gt yr-1 in 2006. Losses are concentrated along narrow channels occupied by outlet glaciers and are caused by ongoing and past glacier acceleration. Changes in glacier flow therefore have a significant, if not dominant impact on ice sheet mass balance.
The Australian is known to have issues with presenting the science in a robust fashion. Comparable to the Telegraph in the UK.
Glacier changes are having impacts on processes of global importance such as sea-level rise, hydrology of mountain-fed rivers, freshwater balance of oceans, and even the shape and rotation of the Earth. Here we discuss the effects of “small glaciers” — all perennial ice masses other than the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets. We now estimate that the total area of these glaciers and ice caps to be about 785 ± 100 103 km2, somewhat larger than earlier estimates because of improved information on isolated glaciers and ice caps around the periphery of the large ice sheets. We estimate the total volume of this ice to be about 260 ± 65 103 km3, equivalent to 0.65 ± 0.16 m of sea-level rise.
Mass gains from accumulating snow, particularly on the Antarctic Peninsula and within East Antarctica, exceed the ice dynamic mass loss from West Antarctica. The result exacerbates the difficulty of explaining twentieth century sea-level rise.
Originally posted by Long Lance
so, this is not about Antarctic glaciers. but in the next sentence, they talk about total ice, including caps, which begs the question, whether the sea level rise in case of complete meltoff is for everything, including caps or just smaller glaciers, which the paper is about.
btw, i found a paper from 2006 which seems to contradict the net loss you claimed
exceeded being the key word. my other sources from 2002 said the same thing iirc.
SCIENCE VOL 315 16 MARCH 2007
Recent Sea-Level Contributions of the
Antarctic and Greenland Ice Sheets
Andrew Shepherd1 and Duncan Wingham2*
After a century of polar exploration, the past decade of satellite measurements has painted an altogether new picture of how Earth’s ice sheets are changing. As global temperatures have risen, so have rates of snowfall, ice melting, and glacier flow. Although the balance between these opposing processes has varied considerably on a regional scale, data show that Antarctica and Greenland are each losing mass overall. Our best estimate of their combined imbalance is about 125 gigatons per year of ice, enough to raise sea level by 0.35 millimeters per year. This is only a modest contribution to the present rate of sea-level rise of 3.0 millimeters per year. However, much of the loss from Antarctica and Greenland is the result of the flow of ice to the ocean from ice streams and glaciers, which has accelerated over the past decade. In both continents, there are suspected triggers for the accelerated ice discharge surface and ocean warming, respectively— and, over the course of the 21st century, these processes could rapidly counteract the snowfall gains predicted by present coupled climate models.
i find it startling that noone asked how cold it actually is at the South pole, because melting starts at 0°C and that's a long way off still. ice flow, as mentioned in the other thread can't really be induced within a short timeframe by temperature rises on the surface, though.
Originally posted by melatonin
The 2002 study was assessing sea ice, no?
Geologists have previously traced the landward retreat of the line where the base of the ice in West Antarctica meets the ocean. This has averaged 120 metres a year since the end of the last ice age. The studies had estimated the Ross Ice Streams region was losing 20.9 billion tons of ice per year.
But now Ian Joughin of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory and Slawek Tulaczyk of the University of California at Santa Cruz report a net gain of 26.8 billion tons per year. This represents about a quarter of the annual snow accumulation.
The flow of glaciers has been increasing. So obviously it can alter sufficiently. There's a reason why scientists are concerned about the disintegration of ice shelves
Originally posted by Long Lance
i didn't read it like that. i included a sea ice perspective because i found if more compelling, more verifiable for example, although clearly limited wrt glaciers, better for indicating temperature, obviously.
In West Antarctica, widespread losses along the Bellingshausen and Amundsen seas increased the ice sheet loss by 59% in 10 years to reach 13260 Gt yr-1 in 2006. In the Peninsula, losses increased by 140% to reach 6046 Gt yr-1 in 2006.
wouldn't temperatures better be measured directly instead of attributing ice flow to temps and going from there? it would take an awful lot of time for surface effects to filter through an ice mass several thousand feet thick, so whatever effects we are seeing, they were caused a while ago.