Accepting Questions About the Demised of FCP

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
Perhaps a dedicated "Debate Business" forum?

So the limiting of access by tags is only done on a forum-by-forum basis, and not thread-by-thread? And tag-limited post access can be done in BTS?

If so, I think a BTS "Debate Chat" forum (fighters post, public read) is good idea. I still do see a need for a public thread that we can direct new fighters (not yet given a tag) to, to coordinate match-ups.

I think the current "Public FCP" thread in BBQ is good for that, even if the majority of new fighters actually negotiate their first debate through moderators or U2U. Perhaps that thread could be renamed more appropriately + stickied?

Having the FCP thread was good advertising for the existence of the debate forum, as it (ahem) is not listed on the ATS home page... perhaps some kind of stickied BBQ thread would be helpful in that regard?

Come to think of it, there's great confusion amongst new members at exactly what the "fighter", "writer", and "scholar" tags actually mean; it might be a good idea to have an easily accessible and noticed reference for each of the various tags.

reply to post by Heike


Harassing other members through U2Us, trying to bully them to shut up, is certainly NOT the right thing to do. You might want to read the T&C...

And I posted a reply in a thread open to ALL members, not only fighters, so how DARE you say the following: "I don't like strangers butting into the conversation, especially if it is open to misunderstanding."

The thread was NOT your private thread, it was NOT for only fighters, so what in the world makes you think that you can call me a "stranger" butting into a conversation? YOU did not like me posting in the thread? Since when did you become the allmighty God of ATS, with the right to decide which members can post in which threads?





[edit on 8-4-2009 by sebarud]

Originally posted by Ian McLean
So the limiting of access by tags is only done on a forum-by-forum basis, and not thread-by-thread? And tag-limited post access can be done in BTS?

Yes... titles define which forums one can participate... on both ATS and BTS.

I'm thinking something more along the lines of a forum like DISC... but perhaps only open to debate participants after they've finished their second debate... and intended to work on new ideas and new debate pairings... not so much a social lounge.

reply to post by SkepticOverlord


Correct me if I'm wrong.

Ultimately, your answer is that fighters will not have a place to talk to each other outside of the actual debates, period. Debate forum is for debates only, and that's that.

Well, you're the boss.

Might it be possible to revisit this issue after we see what impact it has on the debate forum in a month or two?

I could be wrong, but I'm fairly sure the debate forum will be going downhill if we aren't communicating with each other apart from the debates.

One last question: How can potential debates be set up? If I'm up for a challenge match, I can't u2u every one of the 30-odd fighters and ask if any of them feels like a debate.

Originally posted by Heike
Ultimately, your answer is that fighters will not have a place to talk to each other outside of the actual debates, period. Debate forum is for debates only, and that's that.

Uh... I'm correcting you. I've brought up the possibility of a dedicated forum for that.

Heading off for the night... will check in on this thread in the morning.

reply to post by sebarud


I am sending the contents of said u2u to a mod and requesting that you be asked to stop lying.

As regards the stranger butting in comment, I was explaining why I don't want the FCP open to everyone, not talking about your response to me in the "is everyone fine" thread.

And I'm done responding to you because you are baiting me.

reply to post by Heike


Good. As long as you don't send ME any more U2Us or try to decide which thread I can read or reply to, you can do whatever you want.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
I'm thinking something more along the lines of a forum like DISC... but perhaps only open to debate participants after they've finished their second debate... and intended to work on new ideas and new debate pairings... not so much a social lounge.

That sounds like a reasonable solution.

[edit on 8 Apr 2009 by schrodingers dog]

reply to post by SkepticOverlord


Okay. It's late for me as well. I anticipate hearing more about the possibility of a dedicated forum in the morning.

Good night.

A Friendly Reminder

This thread is to discuss the demise of the FCP thread

Please stick to the topic of discussion.

reply to post by schrodingers dog


If there's a perception of 'elitism' amongst the membership - and such a perception would be a problem regardless of whether it's real or not - then a non-publicly readable forum for Fighters only would seem to me to potentially exacerbate that situation.

I like the thought that, as simple ATS members who have chosen to debate, even our smack talk and topic negotiations can be done publicly. I do think there are valid points, though, that such may 'clutter' the ATS debate forum in some way.

I think I've mentioned my thoughts and opinion as to the essential nature of what can be perceived as 'chit-chat', in fostering a civilized adversarial debate forum that is nonetheless based on a solid foundation of personal respect, regardless of differing opinions during 'on-topic' discussion. I think that's a general "ATS value" we all would be wise to acknowledge. Semperfortis' rants on the subject are particularly inspiring to me, in that regard.

Ah well, g'nite all, have a pleasant one!

Originally posted by Ian McLean
reply to post by schrodingers dog

 

If there's a perception of 'elitism' amongst the membership - and such a perception would be a problem regardless of whether it's real or not - then a non-publicly readable forum for Fighters only would seem to me to potentially exacerbate that situation.

Ian, if we are to accommodate for every perception then in my opinion there is no ATS. Everyone, and especially on this board has "perceptions." You read the ATS issues thread, you see the BBQ threads started. Ownership, staff, FSME, get hammered all the time because of people's perceptions. I dare say that even the sequence of events that triggered this event is based on perceptions.

However the simple fact is that participation in the debate forum is not only not exclusive but is encouraged at every turn. I know for a fact that we all try our hardest to have other members join us and be a part of his great forum.

All we can do in any situation is be true and honest, if people want to misperceive that then I dare say there is nothing that will remedy their stated issue.

The forum is open to everyone, we agreed that we don't care about the points, if we are allowed a DISC type forum where anyone who choses to debate can participate, then we are being by all reasonable measures inclusive.

Here is my response to SkepticOverlord's reply to my first post to this thread. I prematurely hit post and by the time I had edited in my responses the thread had moved on. I'm reposting the link just in case it got lost in the shuffle.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
I'm thinking something more along the lines of a forum like DISC... but perhaps only open to debate participants after they've finished their second debate... and intended to work on new ideas and new debate pairings... not so much a social lounge.

Perhaps you could explain to us what the problem with having a "social lounge" in such a forum is? We have given many reasonable arguments for how the social functions of the FCP thread benefited the Debate Forum as a whole, as well as many reasonable arguments against requiring such banter to go on in areas open to posting by the entire membership. Yet it seems that the only two options mentioned have been either moving the FCP as a whole to BTS and opening it to all, or moving its roles as repository for open challenges and debate guidelines discussions to a separate forum and abolishing all social interaction between Fighters when such interaction is not directly related to debates.

If you are interested in encouraging greater participation in structured debates, I strongly feel it's in your interest to provide a thread that functions as the FCP has: to allow newbies to acclimate, to give them access to experienced fighters for encouragement and for regulation. It should be open for reading by all, so that people like me who are apprehensive at first about jumping into debating can see what it's all about, and can come to appreciate the respect and care shown there.

Seeing as the PTB are playing catch-up (reading 600+pages/12,000 plus posts in a sitting), I am going to repeat that which I have publicly posted thus far.

The following is my response to the sudden, and terse, post notifying the FCP its impending demise this past Sunday:

*sees the neon FCP sign being dismantled*

*hops up on the bar for one last time before it too is carted off*

All good things come to an end and an end to a good thing this surely is.

Not as much of good-thing-ending as it would have been prior to this place becoming akin to an average chat room, but nevertheless an unfortunate demise. It is understandable why this small death has come to pass; there has been a trend of profligate posting of banalities, of which we are all guilty, and for which we will all now lose something that was dear.

It is no small thing to engage in these debates, and to have a place to socialize with others who also make themselves so vulnerable and intellectually stripped bare is part of the process of being able to do it. Anyone who says otherwise lies.

It will be interesting to see how the debate forum functions when anyone who disagrees with a postion you are assigned has the liberty to mindlessly berate and challenge you in a free-for-all social setting. I imagine it will be off-putting at the least and most likely create such a hostile setting -- with so many controversial topics generally being debated at any given time -- that we will see a drop-off in interest in debate from both the seasoned and inexperienced.

I would happily see the additional points go away, which I am pretty sure would cut down on the mindless chatter, but if you make it public you might as well do away with it all together.

The above has been stated in various forms more articulately, and repeatedly, since then so I’m going to move on and state, point-blank, that which is being tip-toed around:

The perceived 'elitism' of the FCP is in truth the same incentive that is dangled, and doled out, to tempt those who want to become a Mods. That is what is being protected and catered to here, and it is understandable, but let us not hide behind a façade of trying to honestly call it democratic, fair or of genuine sudden interest. I am assuming the "Sweetie Debate" was the 'behind-the-scenes' catalyst for the said 'sudden interest’ (the two subjects being Mods, both good sports who regularly participate in the DF/FCP and had context), which is again understandable, but will say that context is everything, and those whose interest is being ‘suddenly engaged’ may want to consider that.


For what it is worth, I am speaking as someone who has co-owned, run and sold a ‘first of its kind’ b2c 'database-centric' site and have a basic understanding of what motivates 'Users' and 'Advertiser's, so I have a grasp – and appreciation – for your growing business model but, Gentlemen, babies and bathwater are coming to mind here.

You, quite reasonably, want a site that generates high-traffic and ad rev, but also presumably want a site with some of the same substance and quality which originally launched it. The idea that 30 of the best and brightest of your Members ‘chatting’ while crafting 50k characters worth of arguments -- and reading a 100+ pages of docs -- to defend positions they may not believe in, but that supports your motto, is going to disincentivize your User base is nonsense and if you can find the time to stop and really think about it… you would know that is true.

Speaking -- as I am wont to do -- for everyone I will say, it would be heartening if those of you who are really in power would remove yourselves from the egotistically generated drama, from both sides, and get some perspective here. It is ridiculous and it does not serve you. Let those that dedicate so much time and thought to your site, without being officially anointed, go on doing so by allowing them the one thing the one thing they are asking of you… a little bit of space from those who are unwilling to do so while welcoming all of those who will.

TWISI

AND PS – sebarud is suspiciously in need of DARNING!

first i want to appologize if i repeat statements, questions etc other fighters have mentioned before.

i just want to write down what is on my mind according this issue.
i don.t want to offend or hurt anybody.

by the moment i feel lost.
technically i am crying - sorry if it might be to much emotions for some people.


this is how i feel about it.


when i came to ATS i recognized very early that there is a distinction between members. some were members, some writers, some scholars and some fighters.
i quickly learnt what that meant.

i can.t say way but from the first moment of recognition i admired the fighters.
i have been on many forums and i am still on some other forums than ATS, but i never found a culture of debating on any other forum. that impressed me, the possibility to discuss a topic without "killing" each other!

in autumn last year i decided by myself that i wanted to be a fighter by myself.
i started reading debates and i started reading the FCP.
i also started to interview some of my friends via u2u about that subject.

i was intimedated and i found a lot of encouragement.
i guess most of you know that english isn.t my first language, and due to my schooling history i was more than shy about my ability in expressing myself in english. and it is a huge difference to chat in english or to write entire debate posts in english - if it isn.t your mother tongue.

i also was impressed by the intellectual "chit-chat" i found at the FCP. i really really wanted to be part of that group. intelligent people who were able to discuss controversly without meaning it personally!

so at the beginning of december 2008 i made the step.
since that moment i became addicted to debates!
actually i finished the fifth debate in a row last week.

i am not intimidated about it anymore and i even started to write poetry in english!
why - because of the debates and because of the social talk in the FCP.

i have figured out that most times men tend to judge that what happened at the FCP is "meaningless chit chat" and therefore not necessary at all.
maybe i get a bit angry about it because men usually judge female talking that way.

in my opinion it is essential.
it helps to realize that the guy who is debating you is really a human being.
you realize that every attack which is done for the sake of a good debate isn.t attacking you as a human being, you as a person; it is attacking just the argument and the fighter!

the major argument was "we are awarding 250 points for each post in the debate forum" and that seems to be the reason or one of the resons to shut the FCP

as every other fighter before claimed, points are not important to me.
and they haven.t been important when i joined the debate forum.
and actually i wouldn.t mind if we wouldn.t have any points at all.

being a fighter has changed my life - although it might sound a bit bombastic - but it is true. i gained much more confidence, much more trust in myself. i know that i can argue anything and any position. i know that i am able to research any topic.
i learned a lot and my horizon got wider than before.

but a place like the FCP is very essential in my opinion for this - or for people who are designed like i am designed.
FCP is a kind of safe harbor where i am among friends and no troll can disturb.
debating and creating a debate is much more than the technical process in finding a partner and a subject. you have to get to know each other and get a feeling for each other.
yeah this socialzing helps to develop tactics.

i would highly appreciate a place where i can discuss debates, where i can discuss tactics but as well a place where i can socialize with fellow fighters who meanwhile became my friends. and going to chat or to DATS with them is totally different.

i am really dissapointed that mods, admins and site owners "became aware" of the problem only after 650+ pages, that we were at first just be fed with a simple sentence "might move to BTS" - literally i feel disrespected!

some people claim that fighters are so important for ATS and show such a high standard and literally the same people act towards us fighters as if we were 1st graders and as if we mean nothing to the whole of ATS.

i really appreciate this thread authored by SO to give us room to talk about this issue.

Looks like I missed one hell of a bar brawl.

As debaters, we have the ability to willingly put forth a point of view that we do not agree with. We have a unique ability (perhaps shared with politicians and demagogues) to be disingenuous for the furtherance of our own points.

I assure you that is not the case with what I am about to say.

The first thing I would like to address is the utility of a restricted fighters' only thread. The FCP was designed for a combination of debate-related posts and idle chit-chat. The latter is by no means separate from the debates- Ian said it best on the old FCP thread... by engaging each other in superfluous discussions unrelated to debates, we breed familiarity with each other, and more importantly we breed respect.

An environment of respect is something that you have scarcely been able to create in the main forum. You have torn asunder the only bastion of mutual respect left on ATS. From a quality standpoint, does that make sense? I do rather feel as though you will look back at this point sometime down the road and consider it a shot in your own foot.

Is the quality of the debate forum automatically elevated by the banning of idle chit chat? Not in my opinion, sir.
I believe a thread related only to debate topics would be sparsely populated, an eternal silence punctuated only by "to the point" posts. For an example, take a look at the rankings thread- open for members to throw out challenge matches. Does that look like a jovial environment of debate to you?

Furthermore on the issue of points. Here's the honest truth- nobody cares. Strip all my points and I would still be here. For me, the environment on ATS is one of learning coupled with the galvanisation of internal viewpoints. Points are just electronic bits on a screen... worthless. Please, at any rate, do not let your decision be influenced by something as trivial as points. Businessman to businessman, I hope we can agree that the merchandising idea will never come to fruition. The idea of imbuing an artificial currency with a commercial monetary value is simply not feasible. Even if technically feasible, would you want to destroy the environment of altruistic knowledge sharing on ATS? If points could buy real items, then you would see an increase in troll threads, fishing for points by using contraversial issues. You would see hackers and exploiters attempting all manner of hi-jinks. For all intents and purposes then, points are just for bragging rights.

From a business viewpoint, it makes even less sense. JasonJNelson was slaughtered in the FCP thread for stating the truth. You guys do make advertising revenue from the site, and on your statistics page you cite the number of unique posts per thread as a selling point. Additionally, total posts must also be an important marketing statistic for the Above Network. Why have you taken a decision that will directly reduce the number of posts on your site? We all appreciate your hard work, but let's not cloud the raw truth- this is a lucrative business.

I hope you don't see this as an attack in any form. These are merely my opinions that I needed to air.

There is no scope for discussion here. Either the FCP is returned (to ATS or BTS), or it goes entirely. There will never be a thread of debaters merely talking about debates, because it simply isn't entertaining enough.

Its your business and your call in the end. I just hope you have a clear vision for the future, and are not merely enforcing rules for the sake of it.

-Soulslayer

Listen....in my eyes this is very simple.

I've seen the point made that fighters must have a dedicated place to talk to each other in order to keep the debate forum alive.

I have to ask....why?

There are other threads and forums here at ATS and BTS in which you can talk to each other and discuss things. We have u2u's for that purpose as well. If that isn't enough for you....how about exchanging some information and getting together through MSN or Skype? Hell....how about utilizing our own ATS chat service?

The idea that not having a personal "members only" forum to discuss drinks and post random pictures and music videos will kill the debate forum is ridiculous in my opinion.

If the loss of those things does in fact hurt the debate forum....then what are we really losing anyway?

I would like to express my views now.

Before I posted in FCP I didnt know anything about our fellow fighters and most importantly, "who were the fighters?". And only after posting there did I get to know of others fellow fighters. We are all good friends. Ask any one of the fighter to deny this fact. They wont. We are more like a family. This closure is like a disaster which has shattered the FCP family. My request to SO would be to reopen FCP.

Thank you for the time.

Yours truly,
peacejet.

I'm a fighter and I now have no longer any idea whats going on. Last night I saw the temporary closure of FCP because a few people lost their cool and now this morning, this thread at least, indicates that FCP has "demised."

Is it somewhere else now? I'll have to do another trawl through the all over the place navigation of this system to find it, I hope someone will leave a trail of crumbs for me to find it.

It seems points are, inevitably, an outstanding issue of this whole situation. If points are applied automatically to any post made in the deabte forum then undoubtedly it isn't fair that chit chat posts in FCP should also have that tribute applied to them. If "chit-chat" itself is a problem as well - though many fighters have already given good reason for that lighter conversation - then do move it.

It seems to me that the simplest of solutions might be the best. Just move FCP to BTS, that's it, nothing more or nothing less. Keep it exactly as it was but in a new location, indeed literally move all pre-existing pages of posts over there, let us carry on: there'll be no points, it won't threaten the overall content quality of ATS, we'll all be happy. Why isn't that simplest solution acceptable, or maybe it is?

I'm glad to be a fighter, there really are some excellent fighters here, none of whom put obstacles in my way in becoming a fighter, all of whom have been most welcoming. In the last month I've contributed approx. 100,000 characters of researched information and enjoyed some down time with a group of peers who are open and welcoming. All that has got to be good, especially as it has lead to me to inform some of my offline peers about here.