City Of Death (Mosul)

By playing the blame game, we are playing into the hands of the PTB (Powers That Be). You know as well as I that the average American and the average U.S. soldier has nothing to gain by the destruction of Iraq, just as the average Iraqi has nothing to gain. The same people who want to oppress you want to oppress us as well as you. They want to take away our liberties and opportunities as much as they want to take away yours.

While the reasons for starting this war by the PTB were not honorable, U.S. soldiers in Iraq want to succeed in building a true democratic government in Iraq, irregardless of what the PTB want in Iraq. Succeeding at accomplishing this means recognizing that there are people on both sides working to prevent this from happening. We need to stop fighting each other, and start working together to stop the PTB from continuing to deprive us all of what we deserve, which is liberty and opportunity. This is not an easy thing to do, but if we all work together, we can succeed.

Isn't this why we come here on this website to accomplish?

reply to post by afaik


Curious the fact you have to try and divert this thread onto other topics says a lot .

reply to post by almawsil


Since the figures concerning the number of deaths under Saddam rule aren't exact and the number of deaths in post Saddam Iraq varies greatly according to sources I don't see how your argument holds any weight . Perhaps you could offer some insight to go with your other thoughts . Also there is no way of knowing how many people would have died under Saddam continued rule .

Do you think that Iraqi security forces will be able to stand on there own to two feet ?
Are you interested in taking part in the democratic process in Iraq or would you rather support a Saddam clone coming to power ?
Do you think that a Democratic Iraq will last long enough for future generations to be born under its ideals ?

[edit on 7-4-2009 by xpert11]

reply to post by almawsil


Well, I am not sure why we went to Iraq. President Bush had a tendency to get on TV and mubble and stutter his way through a speech in an attempt to explain what he was doing and why; which in the end left a lot of us confused.

It is true the U.S. Army would have been out of your country by now if that civil war had not broke out in 2005; it was not foreseen and that is when a bad situation got worse; for both your country and mine.

I would agree that my country should (and does) bare some of the blame for Human Rights violations (Abu Garahb). However, there is another country that you should look to for ultimate responsibilty, Iran.

It is widely believed that Iran is fueling the tension between the Sunnis and Shiites, providing funding as well as material aid in an effort to keep the U.S. bogged down in Iraq while they (Iran) pursue their nuclear ambitions (I will not get into the debate on if it is truely for power generation or other, nefarious purposes).

But there is hope in the future; proof of this is in another country that draws an almost direct parallel to yours - Germany. After the Nazis were defeated in WW2, there was an "insurgency" that lasted about 8 - 10 years. Instead of roadside bombs, they had railway bombs. The U.S. Army continued to incur casualties after the war had ended. People in political / military office were kidnapped and murded, areas were people gathered and socialized were not safe for many years, until the early 50's.

Germany is now a prosporous country.

Many (not all) Americans view the war in Iraq as over, though it is still described as a war, it is over. Our conflict was with Saddam and his Baath party, not with the Iraqi citizen. The only reason we are still there is that we are trying to rebuild what was lost / destroyed during our initial invasion as well as during the years of the embargo.

Our current president wants our forces to leave the your country, the citizens of the United States want to leave your country, but before we go it is our aim to leave you with a strong foundation to build upon.


[edit on 9-4-2009 by crisko]

The prisons in Iraq were and are insurgent factorys.

If a person has been falsely accused, held without recourse in law, and tortured at the same time, they will seek revenge - that's just human nature.

As for the oil embargo, all that did was punish Iraqi citizens, it affected saddam not one whit.

The embargo was to stop them buying arms?
Why didn't the US government just stop supplying them?
That's where the vast majority of Iraqi arms came from - the embargo just left the door open for Russia to put Iraq into debt to them.

If a person sells another person an illegal gun, and then that gun is used in the commission of a crime, the seller is as guilty as the perpetrator - with that in mind, why aren't the people who sold the gas to Saddam in prison?

Millions of US citizens say prohibition does not work - except for international prohibitions...
Double standards.

The use of DU and WP against civilians and in civilian area's.

The tragedy that was fallujah - look at birth defects caused by the use of DU.

Before the invasion of Europe in WW2 planners spent 2 years drawing up plans for reconstruction.

Before the invasion of Iraq, they spent zero time planning for reconstruction, with not even a military police presence to stop criminal elements from having a free for all - the result? CHAOS and the breakdown of infrastructure.
Soldiers sat on street corners picking their noses while a whole country was ransacked - not entirely their fault, as they had no orders to interfere, but definitely the fault of the war planners.

Kurdish oil exploration and exploitation rights given to friends of the Bush family.

No bid contracts given to a company the VP had a major interest in.

Mercenarys acting as lawless thugs.

Lies, lies and more lies from Bush & co - all to justify something which was pretty much illegal.

And people wonder why Iraqi's and others are angry about this?

Give me a break.

Originally posted by almawsil
The US army takes responsibility of most violence and crimes in Iraq ….

Wrong. This is what the liberation stopped -

Some of Saddams Crimes
Video of Saddams Crimes
Saddams Iraq
Saddams Attrocities
Washington Post - Iraiq Witnesses Testify about Saddams Attrocities
Udays Home Torture Movies ... and others ... available here
More of Saddams Attrocities

And this is what Muslims are doing to each other - List of terrorist attacks .


[edit on 4/10/2009 by FlyersFan]

reply to post by budski


I think you have some good points here.

Torture was a bad idea, and its funny how all of this was done and publicized.

U.S. companies did continue to illegally sell stuff to Saddam during the embargo, Halliburton, lead by Dick Cheney.

Yeah the people in Iraq suffered more than Saddam from the embargo. Funny how the people selling Saddam the WMDs were also the same people who pushed for the invasion, and torture. Aren't they the NWO/CWO we so often write about here on the forums? These people certainly don't care about the average person in Iraq, or here in the States.

Don't you find it odd that Amijidan in Iran, the guy who brought Cheney and Bush and company into power in the U.S., in the first place, with the original Iranian hostage crisis, is also pushing for this war of terrorism against the U.S. in Iraq?

Could you entertain the idea that the insurgents pushing terrorism are working with the Imperialists to prevent Iraq from developing a representative government?

Could it be that the people in Iraq trying to create a workable government and U.S. soldiers who are trying to help them succeed are the people we should be supporting?

Originally posted by Mosul
don't forget Abu Garib jail , Black Water scandals all of these reflect the democracy granted by the US forces

Yes, we are ashamed and embarrassed at some of the things our American soldiers have done in Iraq, but you cannot profile all Americans on the actions of a few. Just as I won't profile people from the middle east from the actions of a few.

My American SON is serving in Mosul and he has been to your schools to provide Iraq children with pencils, paper, crayons, and books. He has been saddened to see entire families sleeping outside at night on a set of bedsprings with no mattress in the middle of a war zone. He sincerely empathizes with the Iraqi people and wishes only the best for them.

Yes, the American people were duped by our Government to believe that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. However, the man was a maniac who oppressed, murdered and stole from his own people. He was a threat to his neighbors and the world. That being said, he had to be taken out.

We would have left your country shortly after the demise of Saddam and the rebuilding of your country (on our dime), had not all the religious extremist, foreign fighters, and Al-Quaeda got involved. It is this group who threatens your democracy.

It is my heartfelt belief that anyone who kills themselves and takes innocent victims with them in the belief that God is going to reward them is sadly mistaken. I believe we were all created equal in the eyes of God regardless of religion, race, nationality or place or birth.

My son saw these extremist murder and eraticate Christians from the city of Mosul. They can not respect and honor people of different faiths, even though they all worship God.

I have to ask you if you think your country will fare well after the Americans leave without some sort of radical change in your beliefs and governing bodies? While I hasten to push my beliefs on others, I care about you and your future. At the end of the day, the Iraqi's need to decide what kind of live they want for themselves and their children.

Iraq should be the most properous and technologically advanced civilization on earth right now. Iraq is the cradle of civilazation and it sits on a vast amount of oil. However, decades of war, religious and secterian procecution has robbed you of your futures.

I beg of you to wake up and take your blinders off. Your country has been in shambles for eons - even before the Americans came. We have made mistakes in this war and we have to take full responsibility for the actions of Blackwater and our troops at Abu-Graib, but at the end of the day, their are a lot of Americans putting their lifes and pocketbooks on the line for the good of the Iraqi people.

Wrong. This is what the liberation stopped -

Some of Saddams Crimes
Video of Saddams Crimes
Saddams Iraq
Saddams Attrocities
Washington Post - Iraiq Witnesses Testify about Saddams Attrocities
Udays Home Torture Movies ... and others ... available here
More of Saddams Attrocities

And this is what Muslims are doing to each other - List of terrorist attacks .

and this is what did the occupation grant:
www.4shared.com...

so we are substituting a dicator with another one

Yes, we are ashamed and embarrassed at some of the things our American soldiers have done in Iraq, but you cannot profile all Americans on the actions of a few. Just as I won't profile people from the middle east from the actions of a few.

it is a collective job being done according to the instructions of the US administration

My American SON is serving in Mosul and he has been to your schools to provide Iraq children with pencils, paper, crayons, and books.

this is a lie , US forces don't visit the Iraqi schools
and the Iraqi students are not in a need of pencils and copyboo ks from th US forces, they can easily get them from the adminstration directorate.
Iraq is a rich oil country , iraqies don't don't want the charity of their occupier

the man was a maniac who oppressed, murdered and stole from his own people. He was a threat to his neighbors and the world. That being said, he had to be taken out.

but the Bush adminstration and the Iranian militias entering Iraq under the US control are also killing the Iraqis.
so you are substituting a criminal with another.

My son saw these extremist murder and eraticate Christians from the city of Mosul.

muslims also were killed in Mosul and all of iraq, so there is no difference from perpetrating a crime against muslims or christians

Your country has been in shambles for eons - even before the Americans came

but the americans supported the militias such as SCIRI who was committing bombing explosives in the universities of Iraq, as a pretext of a strugglle against the Iraqi regime.

We have made mistakes in this war and we have to take full responsibility for the actions of Blackwater and our troops at Abu-Graib, but at the end of the day, their are a lot of Americans putting their lifes and pocketbooks on the line for the good of the Iraqi people.

i want to believe you , but the US froce are committing their arrogance in Iraq everyday

reply to post by Mosul


Iraq no longer has a dictator, they have a representative government. Iraq may turn around to become the most successful country in the Middle East if they can stop insurgent violence.

I think that what you want more than anything is for the new Iraq government to fail. A successful Iraq will be a huge defeat of Islamic radicals everywhere.