New Orleans vs. Fargo

I have many family in NO, Gulfport, and Biloxi that were affected bu Katrina and I was there the day after for weeks to help in the relief efforts.

They just announced that in addition to the National Guard that active US military helicopters and troops are going there to help the National Guard and community. This is great and what should be done, but can you see any greater difference between this and Katrina other than white and black? I am white by the way. This just makes me even angrier at the way katrina was treated.

reply to post by elston


I will no way dispute the injustices of katrina that happend or those still continueing. The only thing I will say about this to defend it is the freezing temperatures. They cannot have people stranded in freezing flood conditions. The life expectacy I'm sure would be drastically lower than Katrina's.


[edit on 27-3-2009 by FreeSpeaker]

reply to post by FreeSpeaker


It is slow moving water. Go upstairs. I have lived in the north for most of my life, we know how to survive the cold. I think they are doing he right thing sending the military by all means but you couldn't see a more stark contrast.

reply to post by elston


One thing you have to consider is that this flooding happens every year on the Red River, and the biggest was in 1997 only 12 years ago. Also a smaller population to deal with so the planning for such a emergency is solid, tempered by yearly experince with this problem. Manitoba has a vast floodway system to divert the water to save the city and much of the smaller municipalities. They simply have better experience and training for this type of disaster.

New Orleans is a large population center, and we all know how effective large government is.
They simply did not lissen to the experts or have any real effective plan in place. It was criminal. A smaller city like Fargo, which deals with this yearly, simply has better planning and training. We both know NO could have been effectively evacuated, but inept bureaucracy and poor planning was its doom.

I will not argue that it was done on purpose, because nothing the US government does surprizes me anymore.

The difference between Katrina and the norther flooding (North Dakota, Iowa's flood last year):
Northerners: "Wow, we're expecting some real problems here...everyone get off your asses and get moving and bag sand. Remove those from harm immediately."
Katrina: "Hmmm, looks like we might be gettin' a hurricane. Yup, it just might be comin' this way. I wonder what the government's going to do about it? Gee, those sons of a bitches in Washington don't give a rat's ass about us and would rather see us die. Guess I'll go loot a few stores since I'm stuck here."

Sorry, but the people down South should have got the heck out of "Dodge" when it was predicted a hurricane was heading their way. Anyone who waits for the government to help them is just plain stupid.

[edit on 27-3-2009 by Snooze]

reply to post by Snooze


Well, I was trying to be polite.
There is some truth to what you say though.

Originally posted by FreeSpeaker
reply to post by Snooze

 

Well, I was trying to be polite.

There is some truth to what you say though.

And very polite you were. I grew up in the North, but because of employment reasons have lived in the South for years (Atlanta area). People talk about Midwestern work ethic and there's a lot of truth to it.

Originally posted by Snooze
People talk about Midwestern work ethic and there's a lot of truth to it.

I genrally think all smaller population centers have harder work ethic. Cities seem to breed laziness in all honesty. Thats why country boys always sneer at the city boys and consider them "soft". Its not always true, but more than often the case.

Originally posted by FreeSpeaker

Originally posted by Snooze
People talk about Midwestern work ethic and there's a lot of truth to it.

I genrally think all smaller population centers have harder work ethic. Cities seem to breed laziness in all honesty. Thats why country boys always sneer at the city boys and consider them "soft". Its not always true, but more than often the case.

I have lived in rural areas in Iowa, Minnesota, and Kansas. They are mostly hard-working people. Anytime an economy is built on agriculture, people learn at a young age to work. I remember trying to bail hay when I was about eight (using a hook to pull the bails off), carrying four 5-gallon buckets of feed to the chickens at a time in high school (and I'm a girl), detasselling corn and walking beans, walking 1/2 mile out into the pasture to round up the cows. Now, I spend 15 minutes a week pushing a lawn mower around my yard and the neighbors all think I'm some superwoman for doing my husband's job. I'm afraid to tell them I hand-dug my pond (for fun)!

reply to post by Snooze


One thing we cannot dismiss here is that there were people who were not capable of getting out without assistance, and the government failed them. They were literally left to die. I will say that is something that would not happen in a small town however. Eldars are not treated with any respect in major cities, and its damn shameful. Hardly such a thing as friendly neighboors in cities that will shovel a old ladies driveway after a storm.

The government failed many in need of actual assistance.

Originally posted by FreeSpeaker
reply to post by Snooze

 

One thing we cannot dismiss here is that there were people who were not capable of getting out without assistance, and the government failed them. They were literally left to die. I will say that is something that would not happen in a small town however. Eldars are not treated with any respect in major cities, and its damn shameful. Hardly such a thing as friendly neighboors in cities that will shovel a old ladies driveway after a storm.

The government failed many in need of actual assistance.

Agreed. But do you think it was the Federal Government's job to evacuate the town or that it should have fallen to the local and state governments? It seems that the Federal Government took the heat for the dismal failure at the local level.

Originally posted by Snooze

Agreed. But do you think it was the Federal Government's job to evacuate the town or that it should have fallen to the local and state governments? It seems that the Federal Government took the heat for the dismal failure at the local level.

They both failed, but yes the state government was overall responsible. Thats our problem, people who can't take care of themselves always think its upto big brother to save their butts. This results in the fed getting more and more power over our lives for our "protection". People should damn well learn to take care of themselves and not expect the government to save them. Mother nature is a cruel mistress who can throw the best plan and preperations in the crapper.

So yes the fed took the heat for the state because some people as you said earlier couldn't use common sense or make the effort without their hands being held. That goes for the state government aswell.

[edit on 27-3-2009 by FreeSpeaker]

I see differences. The first one I noticed is the state sent national guard to Fargo but did not initially dispatch the guard to NO. Also, the governor in Kentucky during the recent two week ice storm immediately sent out the national guard to help. In an aside, here in Kentucky, many people, having not seen any help from the feds yet, are saying Obama doesn't like hillbillies.

Edited to add, the state of Kentucky is pretty much recovered. We all pitched in and helped each other out, cutting tree limbs, finding fuel, combining resources, taking in people to our homes so that heat sources could be shared, handing out food, helping each other clean up yards in the aftermath, put on new roofs, etc. But, hey, that's the kind of people we are here.

[edit on 27-3-2009 by kyred]

How about the difference that Katrina happened first and this administration and the current government officials learned from the past mistake?

I do agree that the issue is about black and white though. You see Bush is white and a moron. Obama is Black and white and not a moron.

The Fargo people are not out of the clear yet though so the locals and the government still has time to mess up royally!

Originally posted by whoshotJR
The Fargo people are not out of the clear yet though so the locals and the government still has time to mess up royally!

This isn't anything the people of Fargo haven't gone through before. I doubt their doing anything but their best, and as someone who lives by the Red River, believe me when I say it is a unruly beast.

[edit on 27-3-2009 by FreeSpeaker]

The emergency protocol has changed as a result of Katrina.

Before Katrina, it was the responsibility of the local and state governments to request federal assistance. There are only two people to blame for the fiasco in New Orleans and that is Ray Nagin and Kathleen Blanco.

I'm a native Louisianan and lived in New Orleans from 1976 to 1998, so I'm not just whistling "Dixie."

Sending people in to aid in a flood is a far cry from sending them into a Category 5 hurricane so they can be ready after the storm passes. The order was to evacuate.

These are two completely different circumstances, both in terms of the kind of disaster and the kind of response.

[edit on 2009/3/27 by GradyPhilpott]

The biggest moron of all during the Katrina debacle was Mayor Ray Nagin. That hurricane was a slow-moving storm, heading straight for New Orleans. And yet he waited until less than a day before landfall to issue a mandatory evacuation notice. By then, it was too late for many to get out (although these poor people should have taken more responsibility for their own safety). Furthermore, there were hundreds of school/travel buses which could have been commandeered for evacuations and he refused to use them. Then, he sent people to shelters without food or water or sanitary conditions. Granted, if the levies had held, the damage would have been a fraction of what it was, and nobody really expected they were going to give. But when you have a mother of a storm steaming down on you, the smartest thing is to get out of the way.

Originally posted by FreeSpeaker

Originally posted by whoshotJR
The Fargo people are not out of the clear yet though so the locals and the government still has time to mess up royally!

This isn't anything the people of Fargo haven't gone through before. I doubt their doing anything but their best, and as someone who lives by the Red River, believe me when I say it is a unruly beast.

[edit on 27-3-2009 by FreeSpeaker]

Last I heard this is the worst flood they have had in 112 years and its slowly getting worse. If the weather changes and warms up they will be in big trouble because of melt off. They may have dealt with flooding before but it sounds like this is much higher then previously had floods.

I'm sure it will end up a positive situation though. The above paragraph came out more condescending then I meant for it to so don't take it too rough

Tonight, we called some friends who live there...they said the river is nine miles wide in Fargo. I am taking them at their word for that, because I haven't heard confirmation on the news. I cannot even fathom a nine-mile wide river!

Originally posted by Snooze
I cannot even fathom a nine-mile wide river!

At one point, the Red River, normally almost 500 feet wide, became a lake that measured 40 miles wide and 60 miles long. Almost 400 square miles of land were encased in water. The river’s flow ran at 108 000 cubic feet per second.

Source

While not very deep, overland flooding can expand rivers to an unbelievable scale.