Enlightenment Talk

How does someone's fundemental nature and perception change after "enlightenment"? Or if enlightenment is viewed not as a single event, but a gradual process, what changes does a person notice occur along the way?

How does an enlightened person relate to other people, compared from a person's normal experience with others and an enlightened person's experience of others?

Is it totally an inner experience or are their changes in how a person views others? How does a person's enlightenment affect other people?

Isn't an experience that is only extended ( or only exists in) to ones' self worthless in the larger scheme?

[edit on 23-4-2009 by ghaleon12]

Originally posted by Skyfloating
reply to post by MischeviousElf

 

For discussion purpose a challenge: You say "Oneness is the goal".

I ask: How can something that already exists and always will, something that has never ever left...be a "goal"?

In my understanding thats like a wave of the ocean saying "the ocean is the goal"...although it is already naturally the ocean.

We are the ocean, but here in the physical we are led to believe we are not, that we must strive to be good enough for the ocean. The goal is to realize you are the ocean, even while seemingly "separated" by a physical body and a physical experience, and with limitations to finding that out or knowing it on a conscious level. We already know we are connected at other levels, it is what drives our spirituality. Enlightenment is that realization. Maintaining that realization and awareness is another goal in the process of conscious oneness with all. It is like the wave telling itself "I am the wave and the ocean."

Originally posted by ghaleon12
How does someone's fundemental nature and perception change after "enlightenment"? Or if enlightenment is viewed not as a single event, but a gradual process, what changes does a person notice occur along the way?

How does an enlightened person relate to other people, compared from a person's normal experience with others and an enlightened person's experience of others?

Is it totally an inner experience or are their changes in how a person views others? How does a person's enlightenment affect other people?

Isn't an experience that is only extended ( or only exists in) to ones' self worthless in the larger scheme?

[edit on 23-4-2009 by ghaleon12]

the perceptions change because you realize there is no judgment, no end, no punishment. You remove belief systems designed to keep us separate. You have less fear, you have more control of your thoughts, you have more freedom to feel and experience the now because you are not worrying about the future or the past. It is a process because it is hard to do.

I would guess the changes that occur along the way are unique for each person as they uncover layers of separateness. Each layer opens up a new discovery for connection and expressions of those new ideas and perspectives.

The more enlightened and connected a person is, the less they need to seek others for that connectedness, while at the same time, connecting with others in a much more meaningful way when they choose to. Spending time with the self becomes more important and more sacred. They have to relate to others with more understanding and patience and acceptance that their process is different in finding the same thing you have found. Knowing that eventually they will have the realizations as well.

Some people will resist change, especially in a loved one who seems to become different before their very eyes. It feels like more separation at first, but I am told that it is more powerful to teach by example than by force.

Trying not to judge others is important to that process, but it starts with not judging the self, and having the courage to make the needed and necessary changes to create a life that is more honest and true to the self.

These ideas have been around a long time. We have muddied them with judgments and beliefs of good and bad, to the point that we are very tired of them.

It can really be viewed from two perspectives. From the upper to the lower and the lower to the upper. So the lower has a goal in relation to the upper and the upper has a goal in relation to the lower. So it's not a one way street, both the oneness and the individuality need to be developed.

[edit on 23-4-2009 by ghaleon12]

Originally posted by ghaleon12
It can really be viewed from two perspectives. From the upper to the lower and the lower to the upper. So the lower has a goal in relation to the upper and the upper has a goal in relation to the lower. So it's not a one way street, both the oneness and the individuality need to be developed.

[edit on 23-4-2009 by ghaleon12]

yes. exactly. In balance. Enjoy it. It is fascinating.
only I would not add the upper and lower part. As that is more separation and judgment.

that is why I do not like the term "higher self", but it is a common term. True self is more to my liking.

[edit on 23-4-2009 by seagrass]

[edit on 23-4-2009 by seagrass]

How does a person change from their born nature, to an enlightened nature though? What is the hallmark change? I guess this begs the questions. What is someone's born nature? Does it need changing? If it doesn't change, then how is someone's born nature used?

Those changes are just ideas though, "no end" "no judgment" ect. What does the perception change to? No judgment....really. Then a person who doesn't undergo any change or correction of their born nature, goes on to the afterlife? (or whatever term you want to use). If a person isn't judged towards the attainment of a goal, then why are we here? Assuming God has a goal, there has to be judgment.

Besides different belief systems, what else keeps us "separate"? That's part of the answer. There's something else much more significant than belief systems that are keeping us separate.

Really, a person doesn't exist unless they connect with others on a spiritual level. That's why I asked about others in this enlightenment process. An enlightened person that is solitary is not enlightened. Really, the soul develops when it is subservient to others. I don't think many understand that but it's how it is, others are more important than oneself in this process, since like I said, they allow a person to develop their soul. It's not a stretch to say that the "other" holds your soul.

only I would not add the upper and lower part. As that is more separation and judgment.

When speaking of the upper and lower, I'm more referring to the Sephirot in Kabbalah.


[edit on 23-4-2009 by ghaleon12]

Enlightenment talk is just that.... talk

Purposefully unbalancing your natural brainstate in a way the can distort your perception, leaves you open to outside influence and attack. You leave yourself completely unguarded spiritually, when you surrender your consciousness.

...Just kidding!! We are heading for a new age of spiritual enlightenment, the age of aquarius, where theres no place anymore for stupid christians or conservatives!! Everyone grab your crystals! Lets all become gurus so we can sell people little trinkets and a ton of nonsensical mumbo-jumbo that we make up as we go along!! Clear the middle-path, Nivana I'm a comin home!!

Originally posted by ghaleon12
How does a person change from their born nature, to an enlightened nature though? What is the hallmark change? I guess this begs the questions. What is someone's born nature? Does it need changing? If it doesn't change, then how is someone's born nature used?

Those changes are just ideas though, "no end" "no judgment" ect. What does the perception change to? No judgment....really. Then a person who doesn't undergo any change or correction of their born nature, goes on to the afterlife? (or whatever term you want to use). If a person isn't judged towards the attainment of a goal, then why are we here? Assuming God has a goal, there has to be judgment.

Besides different belief systems, what else keeps us "separate"? That's part of the answer. There's something else much more significant than belief systems that are keeping us separate.

Really, a person doesn't exist unless they connect with others on a spiritual level. That's why I asked about others in this enlightenment process. An enlightened person that is solitary is not enlightened. Really, the soul develops when it is subservient to others. I don't think many understand that but it's how it is, others are more important than oneself in this process, since like I said, they allow a person to develop their soul. It's not a stretch to say that the "other" holds your soul.

[edit on 23-4-2009 by ghaleon12]

I see many belief systems in this post.
I will give you mine only for comparison. Mine are different from yours, but not good or bad.
1. Born Nature.
Your original personality? The one that was pure before it was bombarded with belief systems of the physical world?
I see it as a chosen path one takes for experience.
2. A Born Nature needs changing or not?
Experience always includes change.
3. A Born Nature needs correction.
This is a judgment
4. A Born Nature is used.
Experience adds to the whole of consciousness. Usefulness may need not apply. Usefulness denotes value. Also a judgment.
5. Then a person who doesn't undergo any change or correction of their born nature, goes on to the afterlife?
yes.
6. If a person isn't judged towards the attainment of a goal, then why are we here?
for the experience of our choosing.
7. Assuming God has a goal, there has to be judgment.
We are all in this together as "GOD" we are one in a goal of experience. And there is no judgment. And no end or punishment for the choice of experience as we make agreements to be here under natural laws.
8. Besides different belief systems, what else keeps us "separate"?
judging them as good or bad.
Guilt. Denial of our true desires. Fear. Feeling different. Feeling "wrong". Feeling you will be punished. Feeling less than others. Judging others and or the self as bad.
etc.
9. There's something else much more significant than belief systems that are keeping us separate.
perspective. Believing vs. Knowing.
10. a person doesn't exist unless they connect with others on a spiritual level.
I exist even when on a deserted island. Connecting with people is whatever you choose it to be. It is best when one is true to self and allowing others the same.
11. An enlightened person that is solitary is not enlightened.
A person cannot become enlightened until he can be solitary. And in peace with that. It is in aloneness that one learns he is never alone.
12. the soul develops when it is subservient to others.
It may develop a martyr, but subservience is a belief that encourages separateness. That one is better or more deserving than the other. Compassion is never subservient. Empathy is never subservient.
13. others are more important than oneself in this process
we are oneness. None are more important than the other. This is a belief system of separateness.
14. It's not a stretch to say that the "other" holds your soul.
we are connected, but no one holds your soul but you. Responsibility to the soul is self love. Self love allows compassion and understanding, empathy and connectedness with others and with all.

Originally posted by mostlyspoons
Enlightenment talk is just that.... talk

Purposefully unbalancing your natural brainstate in a way the can distort your perception, leaves you open to outside influence and attack. You leave yourself completely unguarded spiritually, when you surrender your consciousness.

...Just kidding!! We are heading for a new age of spiritual enlightenment, the age of aquarius, where theres no place anymore for stupid christians or conservatives!! Everyone grab your crystals! Lets all become gurus so we can sell people little trinkets and a ton of nonsensical mumbo-jumbo that we make up as we go along!! Clear the middle-path, Nivana I'm a comin home!!

You are right it is talk. But it is also communication. And planting of seeds.
Christians and conservatives served their purpose to help propel us toward enlightenment. More separation to experience in order to drive us toward knowing.
How many times did we need to fall in the same holes, before we decided to go around calmly and unafraid?
We don't need crystals, or gurus, or trinkets anymore. We can find it ourselves, or with another on that path. Hopefully with another, as it makes the process go much faster and enjoyable through validation and trust.
The middle path has less holes...

And edited to add, I don't know what other word to use but goal in striving, but let me say that there is no real goal, no finish line, no end to the striving. Direction? Aim, target? Something like that

[edit on 23-4-2009 by seagrass]

Originally posted by seagrass
1. Born Nature.
Your original personality? The one that was pure before it was bombarded with belief systems of the physical world?

I'll give my answers instead of asking questions, although that would be an interesting route

Born nature is egoism or self love. Egoism is fueled by the desire to receive pleasure for only ones self. This is something everyone should agree on.


2. A Born Nature needs changing or not?
Yes, from a desire to take, to a desire to give. Although the will to receive remains the same, its only how it is used. Is it for ones self or for others.

4. A Born Nature is used.
Egoism is used in a way that is a form of giving. Since egoism can't be escaped.

5. Then a person who doesn't undergo any change or correction of their born nature, goes on to the afterlife?
Born nature isn't congruent with spiritual existence. So until a person can become bestowing in their nature, they reincarnate on earth until they can be.

6. If a person isn't judged towards the attainment of a goal, then why are we here?
God has a goal, without it their wouldn't be action. We are judged and guided so that we can come to the purpose of creation.


7. Assuming God has a goal, there has to be judgment.
Simple "experience" is not the goal. We're born as animals, driven by nature and desire, but there is a goal above living as an animal.


8. Besides different belief systems, what else keeps us "separate"?
Egoism is the only thing that separates us.

10. a person doesn't exist unless they connect with others on a spiritual level.
I exist even when on a deserted island. Connecting with people is whatever you choose it to be. It is best when one is true to self and allowing others the same.

A person's beast can live alone, but in order to exist in spirituality, a person has to connect with others. Other people are like cells in a body and in spirituality only one body exists. If a cell exists only for itself, like we are now and the nature we're born into, then it is a burden on the rest of the body. It is like a cancer. In a functioning body, a cell only takes as much as it needs and works for the benefit of the whole body. A cell that exists for only itself gets killed. It can't live in spirituality. Until a person can benefit the whole body, by becoming altruistic, they incarnate.

11. An enlightened person that is solitary is not enlightened.
A person cannot become enlightened until he can be solitary. And in peace with that. It is in aloneness that one learns he is never alone.

"Enlightenment", although I don't use that term ever, is expansive, not constricting. A person is always solitary, they are always alone in whatever they do be it meditating or at a party. So a person doesn't have to "work" at being solitary. Their born nature is as solitary as it gets. The only way to progress is transforming taking into giving.

12. the soul develops when it is subservient to others.
It may develop a martyr, but subservience is a belief that encourages separateness. That one is better or more deserving than the other. Compassion is never subservient. Empathy is never subservient.

It isn't separateness when you realize that everyone is a part of the same body. Like the cell, it has to be subservient to others in the body, or it gets killed. Our born nature is evil. Our egoism needs to be beat basically into submission. The only thing that is better or more deserving is the quality of bestowal. When someone is developing in spirituality, they have to draw strength from the group, and to do that you have to view them as higher than yourself or else you can't draw closer (meaning you can't progress in spirituality).

13. others are more important than oneself in this process
we are oneness. None are more important than the other. This is a belief system of separateness.

All we have is our own, narrow, limited perception. We have to view others as more important than ourselves. Everyone has heard the saying "Love your neighbor as yourself". It's the golden rule in many religions. If you love your neighbor greater than yourself, where does that bring you?

14. It's not a stretch to say that the "other" holds your soul.
we are connected, but no one holds your soul but you. Responsibility to the soul is self love. Self love allows compassion and understanding, empathy and connectedness with others and with all.

The interconnectiveness means that others hold your soul. The filling of them is what gives a person any worth. If they don't hold your soul, then you can't fill them up and you have no use. By broadening the scope and understanding of your soul to include others, then filling the soul with light fulfills everyone and it becomes bestowing.


[edit on 24-4-2009 by ghaleon12]

You have a basic belief system that we are "bad" and must become "good". And it is through other "bad" people that we can become "good". That makes no sense to me.

And so, if this is your belief system, mine will serve no purpose for you.

reply to post by ghaleon12


Hi ghaleon12,

I hope your path to Truth and Understanding is rich with Joy!

Originally posted by ghaleon12
How does someone's fundemental nature and perception change after "enlightenment"? Or if enlightenment is viewed not as a single event, but a gradual process, what changes does a person notice occur along the way?

How does an enlightened person relate to other people, compared from a person's normal experience with others and an enlightened person's experience of others?

Is it totally an inner experience or are their changes in how a person views others? How does a person's enlightenment affect other people?

Isn't an experience that is only extended ( or only exists in) to ones' self worthless in the larger scheme?

This are some excellent questions...and answering them in a truthful way might render any type of striving for enlightenment pointless...which is why I hesitate to answer them

Speaking from my personal viewpoint I dont actually believe in "Enlightenment" as taught by various traditions because, as hinted earlier, I dont believe that a wave needs to become one with water...it already IS.

Instead I believe in various STATES of Being that are mistaken for "Enlightenment". And in such states there are indeed changes of attitude, perception, compassion, experience...depending on which state one is in.

Originally posted by ghaleon12
It can really be viewed from two perspectives. From the upper to the lower and the lower to the upper. So the lower has a goal in relation to the upper and the upper has a goal in relation to the lower. So it's not a one way street, both the oneness and the individuality need to be developed.

Amazing realization there. Streams that preach oneness, other streams that teach Individuality...and yet...from a meta-perspective, they are not mutually exclusive.

reply to post by mostlyspoons


Christians and Conservatives represent Order/Stability, which is the yang-side to Chaos/Freedom. Both sides are helpful imo for a whole-istic lifetime imo.

Originally posted by seagrass

that is why I do not like the term "higher self", but it is a common term. True self is more to my liking.

This one is interesting. Terms such as "higher self", "subconscious", "inner self", are essentially artificial constructs/seperations that have nothing to do with ONE. They may be helpful stepping stones for some, but at the end of the day what is it all supposed to mean?

(See my signature...the electricity that runs through the lightbulb is not split up into different selves).

This are some excellent questions...and answering them in a truthful way might render any type of striving for enlightenment pointless...which is why I hesitate to answer them

Each experience is different, there is no real way to answer it. Each persons truth is their own. The diversity of belief systems and truths are what color the "ocean" in unlimited ways. Unlimited possibilities exist in finding it, whatever it happens to be for them.

Speaking from my personal viewpoint I dont actually believe in "Enlightenment" as taught by various traditions because, as hinted earlier, I dont believe that a wave needs to become one with water...it already IS.

Is and yet at different dimensions one is in the process of discovery through a physical experience, such as here. I believe in our natural state, so to speak, we are aware we are one and ARE or IS the ocean.
To become ONE, I feel is a process of integration and incorporation of the awareness in a physical reality. Not the ultimate reality, because we already are. But we are limited by obstacles and restrictions we have chosen to experience on and during that discovery. I also believe there is no right or wrong way to find it.

Instead I believe in various STATES of Being that are mistaken for "Enlightenment". And in such states there are indeed changes of attitude, perception, compassion, experience...depending on which state one is in.

State? or dimension? State denotes a psychological experience. Incorporation of the self into a whole, integration of awareness of the whole self and its truth would not require levels imo. Being ONE would not need STATES as that implies levels of connectedness in the ultimate reality, but in our human striving for oneness I do believe we get there in increments. Absorbing consciousness and awareness through knowing the self via its experience. Knowing what one is, and what one is not. Duality helps us discover it. Our individual truth.

edited for excessive apostrophes

[edit on 24-4-2009 by seagrass]

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by seagrass

that is why I do not like the term "higher self", but it is a common term. True self is more to my liking.

This one is interesting. Terms such as "higher self", "subconscious", "inner self", are essentially artificial constructs/seperations that have nothing to do with ONE. They may be helpful stepping stones for some, but at the end of the day what is it all supposed to mean?

(See my signature...the electricity that runs through the lightbulb is not split up into different selves).

I think it represents the knowing that we are not at an awareness that is incorporating the living and acting in truth to the self. That a self that is more aware, more conscious exists in connection with us in another dimension. As we are only one small focus of experience in the whole of that self.
Like an onion, but we are still the onion.

why can't we be a lightbulb and the electricity? Like our body is part of our consciousness. It is the vehicle we choose to experience our electricity and it is created by us for that specific experience. The electricity chooses the lightbulb and or the wire or whatever device we choose to. The lightbulb wasn't created to be denied or escaped, but enjoyed.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
reply to post by Mr Green

 

Just an example: Say someone here attacks you in a way that stirs up some deep-seated crap within you...

...would you know how that might be an opportunity for transcending it in a meditative way...?

For me this situation gives me the chance to become extreamly conscious and in my now. It gives me the opportunity to see what this person is saying is totally seperate from "them" and that all I need do is become totally aware , observe their words, do not react, do not judge but just observe. This way I see their words are not them speaking, they are not being personal towards me because it is their mind speaking and not their true spirit. True spirit does not stir up deep seated crap, it has no need for such things so for me this is how this situation allows me to learn and bring me into a more aware state (meditative).

Its also an opportunity for me to realize that this deep seated crap they are stiring up in me is meaningless and that I should just see it for what it is in me..ego.

Im not saying I dont do this sometimes, when Im not as aware as Id like I still find myself reacting to people with my unconscious mind rather than my conscious being and thus stir up deep seated crap in them too. Its a learning process I guess.

[edit on 25-4-2009 by Mr Green]

Originally posted by Mr Green

For me this situation gives me the chance to become extreamly conscious and in my now. It gives me the opportunity to see what this person is saying is totally seperate from "them" and that all I need do is become totally aware , observe their words, do not react, do not judge but just observe.

I do this with a "pull back" maneuver. I close my mouth too. Almost like not letting the energy in. My neck pulls back a little too. It is a defensive position that is unneeded and hopefully, eventually won't be my reaction in time, because I will be comfortable with not allowing others energy to affect me. No guilt and no fear. It moves your attention to the now because it is an opportunity to not judge in a negative or positive way, but simply judged objectively for how it applies to the self. If I can remain detached from the outcome of their belief system as it is different from mine, I am more able to see the subject for what it is. Usually meaningless to me.

This way I see their words are not them speaking, they are not being personal towards me because it is their mind speaking and not their true spirit. True spirit does not stir up deep seated crap, it has no need for such things so for me this is how this situation allows me to learn and bring me into a more aware state (meditative).

If it causes a reaction in me, I am aware there is actually something to look at there. If it doesn't then I am ok and objective with that topic. It is an opportunity for more growth if it creates a conflict in the self.

Its also an opportunity for me to realize that this deep seated crap they are stiring up in me is meaningless and that I should just see it for what it is in me..ego.

It is an opportunity to change and heal the deep seated crap, to let it go so that you can have more room and more energy FOR THE EGO, imo. Ego is not something to overcome but get to know and express. The parts of our ego we do not like are the areas we may need to express but are afraid to.

Its a learning process I guess.

I see it as an experience to learn about the self. It definitely has a process and it can be an adventure.

[edit on 25-4-2009 by Mr Green]