Enlightenment Talk

seagrass: You seem to have changed since we last met on ATS. You did not used to talk with way

Originally posted by seagrass

But we are limited by obstacles and restrictions we have chosen to experience on and during that discovery. I also believe there is no right or wrong way to find it.

Are we really? And are those other waves really "obstacles" or just other waves?

And why would it be desirable to become unlimited? Suppose we came here in order to experience limitation?

reply to post by seagrass

It is an opportunity to change and heal the deep seated crap, to let it go so that you can have more room and more energy FOR THE EGO

why would I want to give ego even more energy I do not understand this. Can you give me an example of why i would want to feed my ego? ive tryed to think of a case for this but I just cant.....

Someone mentioned striving to find enlightenment,

I never thought of striving for enlightenment, I don't think I am enlightened, I think I have had some amazing experiences, but I strive to be honest, accepting myself, knowing myself and being myself, no fluff.

I don't think people particularly like people who go about like they exist in some higher level of consciousness,

Consider all of us as enlightened in one way or another, many paths.

Everyone has something to offer on the path.

Originally posted by Mr Green
reply to post by seagrass

 

It is an opportunity to change and heal the deep seated crap, to let it go so that you can have more room and more energy FOR THE EGO

why would I want to give ego even more energy I do not understand this. Can you give me an example of why i would want to feed my ego? ive tryed to think of a case for this but I just cant.....

I wouldn't worry about ego unless you are egotistical

Originally posted by Skyfloating
seagrass: You seem to have changed since we last met on ATS. You did not used to talk with way

Originally posted by seagrass

But we are limited by obstacles and restrictions we have chosen to experience on and during that discovery. I also believe there is no right or wrong way to find it.

Are we really? And are those other waves really "obstacles" or just other waves?

And why would it be desirable to become unlimited? Suppose we came here in order to experience limitation?

I have changed Skyfloating, and in part you have been one of the catalysts, at least here at ATS. Never underestimate a persons ability to grow.

I believe we all create the waves (energy in form and in motion), and experience them however we choose to (and with others in a group effort ) We create obstacles and veils and limitations for experience. Otherwise the game would be no fun. (You just drew the move back two spaces card... lol)
We are unlimited, that is why we create the fun of limitation. yes, that is how I see it.

Originally posted by Mr Green
reply to post by seagrass

 

It is an opportunity to change and heal the deep seated crap, to let it go so that you can have more room and more energy FOR THE EGO

why would I want to give ego even more energy I do not understand this. Can you give me an example of why i would want to feed my ego? ive tryed to think of a case for this but I just cant.....

Freedom. Freedom to experience how and what you choose and allow others the same. We have tried every type of limitation and restriction and pain and uncomfortableness that we can imagine. Even so far as to try to ruin one of our greatest creations, Earth. This has been our playground for long time. And I believe we are bored. We have tried every extreme of everything we can think of to find a connectedness and a happiness out in that world and "through others". But we have been told for centuries and beyond that we can only find it within. We create our reality. It's simple. You create limitations for your ego. You deny your ego and try to justify it as "right". When doing that, you are lying to yourself and others. You are denying your true self and its desires. The self knows what is right and wrong for it, but when you listen to others and their belief systems you get confused. You try to please and be a good boy. And that creates anger sadness, separation and depression and more judgments. Just try for one day not to judge yourself or others for what they think, say or do. It's difficult.

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
Someone mentioned striving to find enlightenment,

I never thought of striving for enlightenment, I don't think I am enlightened, I think I have had some amazing experiences, but I strive to be honest, accepting myself, knowing myself and being myself, no fluff.

I don't think people particularly like people who go about like they exist in some higher level of consciousness,

Consider all of us as enlightened in one way or another, many paths.

Everyone has something to offer on the path.

You sound enlightened to me.

"Enlightened"
Does that word create a feeling that is negative?
Have we decided we don't like that word because it sounds "better than"?
It is a word, that you give energy.

Enlightened to me means that the density or heaviness has been removed. That negative heavy ideas and beliefs have been dissolved. It is a process of removing the layers and layers of ideas and beliefs we have accepted as truth, but which do not serve us. It is a connectedness to all and an honesty to self. An awareness.

I don't think anyone is more enlightened than another. Some may be further along and seem to be a guru or teacher, but we all share in the ability to experience it at any time we choose. No one is more enlightened than another because we only exist "now".

striving is a human concept that is related to time. If time doesn't exist, we are enlightened at all times in the now of the ultimate reality, the human experience veils that knowing, in order to experience the striving.

[edit on 25-4-2009 by seagrass]

Sidhartha Gautama himself said that, "Once enlightenment is obtained, nothing changes."

You still have to deal with the people in your life, you still have to make a living and you still have to deal with the daily problems of the world.

Enlightenment is not some cure all or end all.

In the end, it's just a perspective.

Originally posted by mrwupy
Sidhartha Gautama himself said that, "Once enlightenment is obtained, nothing changes."

You still have to deal with the people in your life, you still have to make a living and you still have to deal with the daily problems of the world.

Enlightenment is not some cure all or end all.

In the end, it's just a perspective.

How you deal is the part to look at. The choices you make. You have to believe that you have choice in order to create your own reality. That is a perspective that once obtained would not change. If you were true to self there would be no need to change, or correct, because it is true and right. Needs for extreme experiences would no longer hold attraction. Peace and tranquility in no guilt or judgment. A stillness. A connection with "now".

the choices of perspective could be endless,just as our imagination has shown to be.

[edit on 25-4-2009 by seagrass]

reply to post by Skyfloating

Suppose we came here in order to experience limitation?

Do you mean 'here' on ATS or in the world at large ?

I think so. ATS is a nice cross section of belief systems to ponder. All kinds, including the less accepted.
I know that is why I am fascinated with ATS.

"right"

The most common relative directions are left, right, forward, backward, up, and down. No absolute direction corresponds to any of the relative directions. This is a consequence of the translational invariance of the laws of physics: nature, loosely speaking, behaves the same no matter what direction one moves. As demonstrated by the Michelson-Morley null result, there is no absolute inertial frame of reference. There are definite relationships between the relative directions, however. Left and right, forward and backward, and up and down are three complementary pairs orthogonal to each other.

to be right in theory or perspective is much the same for both definitions.

Originally posted by visible_villain

Do you mean 'here' on ATS or in the world at large ?

I meant the world at large...

Originally posted by mrwupy
Sidhartha Gautama himself said that, "Once enlightenment is obtained, nothing changes."

You still have to deal with the people in your life, you still have to make a living and you still have to deal with the daily problems of the world.

Enlightenment is not some cure all or end all.

In the end, it's just a perspective.

True. Folks mistake "Enlightenment" for some kind of cosmic lottery win that will put an end to a life they think sucks.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by mrwupy
Sidhartha Gautama himself said that, "Once enlightenment is obtained, nothing changes."

You still have to deal with the people in your life, you still have to make a living and you still have to deal with the daily problems of the world.

Enlightenment is not some cure all or end all.

In the end, it's just a perspective.

True. Folks mistake "Enlightenment" for some kind of cosmic lottery win that will put an end to a life they think sucks.

Through the process of enlightenment and letting go of belief systems that are not your own truth, life does stop sucking. It doesn't take a cosmic lottery and it is not given out to the "chosen" or "blessed". It is available to all of us at any time. Is is simply there for the taking if you choose to. You just have to be open to it. Believe that it is possible to be happy and that no one is out there ready to punish you for being you. Especially yourself. And when they/you try to create an obstacle to it, you deny its energy, and choose freedom. In detachment and objectivity. It takes courage to know yourself and follow your own truths.
Sometimes you have to walk away from old attachments, let go of ideas you have held for a long time, and make room for new experiences without fear. Also difficult.

Buddha-nature

In explaining what it means by sentient beings' having the Buddha nature, the 'Mahaparinirvana Sutra' distinguishes three different ways of understanding the term "to have":

Good son, there are three ways of having: first, to have in the future, Secondly, to have at present, and thirdly, to have in the past. All sentient beings will have in future ages the most perfect enlightenment, i.e., the Buddha nature. All sentient beings have at present bonds of defilements, and do not now possess the thirty-two marks and eighty noble characteristics of the Buddha. All sentient beings had in past ages deeds leading to the elimination of defilements and so can now perceive the Buddha nature as their future goal. For such reasons, I always proclaim that all sentient beings have the Buddha nature.

Source : Wikipedia

Sogyal Rinpoche writes:

When we say Buddha, we naturally think of the Indian prince Gautama Siddhartha who reached enlightenment... Buddha, however, has a much deeper meaning. It means a person, any person, who has completely awakened from ignorance and opened to his or her vast potential of wisdom. A buddha is one who has brought a final end to suffering and frustration, and discovered a lasting and deathless happiness and peace.

But for many of us in this skeptical age, this state may seem like a fantasy or a dream, or an achievement far beyond our reach. It is important to remember always that Buddha was a human being, like you or me. He never claimed divinity, he merely knew he had the buddha nature, the seed of enlightenment, and that everyone else did too.

The buddha nature is simply the birthright of every sentient being, and I always say, “Our buddha nature is as good as any buddha’s buddha nature.” This is the good news that the Buddha brought us from his enlightenment in Bodhgaya, and which many people find so inspiring. His message—that enlightenment is within the reach of all—holds out tremendous hope. Through practice, we too can all become awakened. If this were not true, countless individuals down to the present day would not have become enlightened.

Source : Rigpa Wiki

We all 'have it,' but for most it's 'not so easy' to 'get to' ...

Here's what one 'pretty old book' has to say about the 'signs' one has 'achieved it' -

Mahamudra

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d0852ce29611.jpg[/atsimg]
Source : Google Books

Hope this helps.

Defilements

In Buddhist teachings, greed, hatred, and delusion are known, for good reason, as the three poisons, the three unwholesome roots, and the three fires. These metaphors suggest how dangerous afflictive thoughts and emotions can be if they are not understood and transformed. Greed refers to our selfishness, misplaced desire, attachment, and grasping for happiness and satisfaction outside of ourselves. Hatred refers to our anger, our aversion and repulsion toward unpleasant people, circumstances, and even toward our own uncomfortable feelings. Delusion refers to our dullness, bewilderment, and misperception; our wrong views of reality. The poisons of greed, hatred, and delusion are a byproduct of ignorance—ignorance of our true nature, the awakened heart of wisdom and compassion. Arising out of our ignorance, these poisonous states of mind then motivate nonvirtuous and unskillful thoughts, speech, and actions, which cause all manner of suffering and unhappiness for ourselves and others.

I pulled these out of the description of defilements. Defiling the self....."grasping for happiness and satisfaction outside of ourselves"
"and even toward our own uncomfortable feelings"
"Delusion refers to our dullness, bewilderment, and misperception; our wrong views of reality"
"ignorance of our true nature"

three defilements

Originally posted by ghaleon12

A person's beast can live alone, but in order to exist in spirituality, a person has to connect with others. Other people are like cells in a body and in spirituality only one body exists. If a cell exists only for itself, like we are now and the nature we're born into, then it is a burden on the rest of the body. It is like a cancer. In a functioning body, a cell only takes as much as it needs and works for the benefit of the whole body. A cell that exists for only itself gets killed. It can't live in spirituality. Until a person can benefit the whole body, by becoming altruistic, they incarnate.

Although I am not opposed to the metaphor of certain types of human behavior to cancer, I disagree with this statement.

One, its not only humans that are "one." Humans cooperating and giving to one another can still be cancerous. The recognition of "other" as "self" needs to extend beyond merely the species level. There are levels of "ignorance of self" in the most extreme, you have the sociopath, who only considers their own personal self. Then those who only concern themself with friends and family. Then those who care only about tribe or ethnicity, then those who consider nationality, and then those who consider all other humans. But there is room for extension beyond that. To all mammals, to all living things, and finally to all things that are, living or not.

You can never be "alone" even if you remove yourself from other humans.

"Giving" to other humans who are acting as a cancer just makes you another cancer cell. Cancer is one type of cell, in this metaphor "humans," that has decided more of its type should take precedence over all other types, and begins to invade the territory of other organs and tissues to the detriment of the tissue that belongs there. As in lung cancer, the cells first refuse to die, even though they are dysfunctional and it is their duty to bow out. Then they make more of their own dysfunctional kind within the organ of "all humans" and form a tumor, then they send out "explorers" to take hold in other organs and begin to displace the functional cells that make up that organ, and thus you find lung cells in, say, a brain, or lung cells in bones where they do not belong and they begin to both displace the rightful inhabitants and divert resources from the "natural" cells to their own kind.

"Helping" all other humans without considering their action on the One is not the peak of spiritual development. Compassion and love can include not giving, and not helping, and even active moves to hinder and block, in that analogy. You had best hope and pray that cells that are 'You" as an individual, move to destroy cells that are also "you" if those second set of cells that are "you" forget that they are "you" and become cancerous. It would not be compassionate for the immune cells meant to protect the unity that is your personal body ("you") to all of a sudden become bookstore Buddhists and think that "compassion" means always being nice and giving and non-violent all the time in every circumstance.

The truth of spirituality is there is no one rule that you can follow all the time and stay on the path. If it were that easy, we would all be Buddhas. The truth of the matter is that you are here to perform your function whatever that may happen to be without judging it, or imposing your mental ideas upon it.

This idea is laid out clearly in the Bhagadvad Gita. Arjuna is torn by the idea of having to kill family members in a civil war, Krishna explains to him, and I paraphrase, "It is arrogant to think that you could kill. I decide who lives or dies, you are only my instrument." The essential teaching is not that one should go around killing, nor that one should go around not killing. It is that to live rightly, you allow the Divine to guide you in your actions, you develop insight that allows true discernment, you do not rely on "rules." Someone who would give you a list of actions you "must" perform, and a set of rules you "must" obey, has no understanding whatsoever of the Truth. Regardless how many followers they may have.

The vast majority of humans believe themselves to be spiritual, many of them follow a tradition. One could argue that they are just "doing it wrong" or one could argue that the idea a "tradition" (even if followed to the letter)could ever get you to Truth is laughable. As Krishnamurti famously said, "The Truth is a pathless land." No one else can help you navigate it. If you open your eyes, and allow yourself to hear your inner guide, you are the only expert on your own path.

This of course doesnt mean you should never listen or never read, what it does mean is that no matter who you listen to or who you read, you have to find the interpreter in your own heart or soul so that you can hear the truth that is always conveyed in lies. All words about God or Oneness or Enlightenment are lies. But even in their falsity, there is an aspect of you that can discern the truth from them. You dont need to "find it" or "awaken" it, you only need to learn to hear its voice over the din in your own head. You are born with it, you will die with it, it is the voice of "God" or the "One" or whatever you want to call it. It is your voice, your true voice, and all you need to do is listen. It can come out of your own mouth, or the mouth of an "other" or it can take the form of leaves stirring in the breeze. It doesnt matter. There is nothing that is "not you" and the only thing that separates us is the fact that we as apparent "individuals" have forgotten who and what we are.

There is nothing called Enlightenment.

Only conman (prophets , gurus,swamis ,monks,priests..etc) creates these "super answer" to manipulate weak humans to power over them. if more people listen to you more power to you.

Humans have internal fear. These conman manipulate that fear with his own form of answer.

Answer is just a belief in a context.